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I've been watching the car trends in North America, and I noticed something--it is becoming more & more European. Sure, there is the big SUV thing happening which is not happeneing elsewhere in the world, but there has been some clues about the market change. First is the rise of sales in stationwagons, including those of the Volvo, BMW, Subaru and Mazda. Although not cracking Camry sales, they've been steadily increases in demand, and the vehicles themselves are very appealing. Gone are the old days, when stationwagon were slow and clumsy. These new wagons move! And they look good to boot. As everyone knows by now, hardly anybody uses their SUV for off-roading, so this makes it a perfect alternative. Sports sedan performance, with utility of an SUV. It is a very critical time for Honda to release a stationwagon, I believe. They need to re-release the Accord wagon. I don't think they really need an AWD option, since they have the CRV in the lineup. Also, a Civic based wagon would be quite nice, to compete with the Protege 5. I understand that a 5-door hatchback is on the way, but they need something more low-slug, with a sportier appearance. The 5-door hatch looks more like a minivan from afar.

Second is welcoming of forced induction. The WRX is probably the hottest car in the import scene right now, with an impressive heirtege (WRC Champs), blistering performance (Turbo + AWD = V. Fast), easy to mod (chipping, 'nuff said) and reasonablely priced. They are already promising an STi version, with even more fire under the hood. Mitsubish is released the highly anticipated Evo7, which will compete directly against the WRX, with similar performance numbers and benifits. There is a strong rumour that Toyota will be Supercharger their cars again, as they are currently offering TRD Supercharger Kits for their DOHC 3.0L V6 (employeed in the Camry, Solara, RX300 and Highlander), as well as their DOHC 4.7L V8 (Tundera, Landcruiser, Sequoia, LX470 & upcoming GS470) and their DOHC 3.4L V6 (4Runner, Tacoma and PreRunner) They are also releasing kits for the 1.8L I4 (Corolla, Celica GT, Matrix and MR-2 Spyder).

V-TEC is good, but let's face it--it's no Turbo. And I know if Honda offered a "Civic Type-T" with a $3000 premium for the Turbo, with factory warrent intact, more than 50% of the people in this fourm would have bought it. The fact the EX only has 12 extra ponies than the LX isn't that all that attractive, which shows by the significant number of users on this fourm that chose to go with LX and save money. And this is an enthusist's place. As for the new 160HP Si, it's way underpowered against the competition (Matrix XRS, Focus SVT, GTI 1.8T & Sentra SE-R). The new Type-R promises 200HP, but at what cost? The Si are already being over-priced by the dealerships, and what they will do to the Type-R is scary. What if Honda decided to Turbocharge the Si instead? First off, it would make WAY more than 200HP. And it would even have better low-end torque (yes, there is Turbo lag, but let's not forget V-TEC lag!). That would really put an end to the VW's 1.8T.

Some say Turbo cars are just not as durable as "all engine", and that wouldn't be what Honda stands for. Well, a lot of us take apart our cars anyway, so realisticly, quality is not #1. Every time you rip out the dash, remove the bumper, it slowly, but surely, increases rattles in the car. Besides, there a lot of manufactors out there who successfully made durable forced induction engines.

Why Honda does things the hardway, I don't know. Toyota made the same mistake recently with their Celica GTS, 180HP, revving to 8000RPM. They should've just came out with the All-Trac again. 4WD underpinning (same as Matrix) and turbocharge/supercharge it (already made, in testing stages). Why pay Yamaha to tune an engine, when you can get more done in house, for cheaper? 200+HP would easily have been achieved, safely. And with the light body of the Celica, it would've been knocking on Mustang GT performance territory.

Just look at the GTI 1.8T. Fastest out of all the new breed of "hot hatches." By using an old technology. No V-TEC. No VVTL-i. No 3rd party involvement. Just strong, useable powerband for all occasions. Touting around in town, and drag-racing.

 
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i didn't read the whole thread, cause thats damn long, basically your thinking in a performance type of view, your not really thinking in a business kind of view, "how honda can be better?" basically honda is the best in terms of profit and revenue, and in all business's thats what it all comes down too, yes civics aren't the fastest and so on, but honda has been mass selling them as well as all the other models they outputted, your talking about wrx's and sentra se-r, those are 2 great cars but in terms of sales, they are not doing that great

 
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On both posts, of course all the import people are squaking about how honda should charge' the engines, I mean if they already pull 200,000 + miles why not charge' em??? Well as far as it goes, Honda doesn't care, they appeal to believe it or not the normal middle class american who can afford a nice car that lasts!!! That is the whole reason that honda does what they do, and they do it good!!!But look at it this way, you want to charge' the engine, customize your turbo... It's out there, and Honda knows this, That is why they don't care, and if the car is super/turbocharged, is it still going to appeal to the middle class americans??? Nope. Now if they did it to the overpriced Si, would people still buy it??? Maybe but it is too risky! That's buiness buddy, and as much as I hate it I live with it so... lets [IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG], and , because if you have patience... IT WILL COME, hopefully in a racing series of honda, like the T-class[IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG], well until then, enjoy your car, it lasts forever, and has amazing resale value!!!

 
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Why doesnt Honda make a racing division like Toyotas TRD that speicalizes in racing and performance parts ? Honda is the most modified car

 
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Well, I know Civic out sells the competition. So does the Corolla, Accord & Camry, all because of the same reasons. Good, solid cars.

Have you noticed something though? Competition is selling more too. In fact, even though Toyota & Honda has the volume, Nissan & Mazda have increased more percentage-wise. Those two companies were really struggling. I know what you're thinking. No where to go, but up! But there is a reason why their sales have increased, and that is because they stole the enthusist consumers. Protege is a great car and the 240HP Altima is making the headlines. So is the WRX. And other cars.

What Honda & Toyota has got going for them, is their reputation for making reliable cars. That's not something you get after a couple years, it's something you achieve over a few decades. If you have this solid foundation, why not build upon it? You can take the chances, because either way, it will sell. Because there is a great pay off in grabbing the younger, more enthusiastic consumers.

I know when people in this fourm are looking to buy a family sedan, they will go out and test drive the Accord before anything else. Why? Because the Civic has served you well. A joe blow owned a Golf will certainly test drive the Passat. And a jane doe who drives a sentra will certainly have a look at the Maxima. Brand loyalty is very important, which is why all the auto makers are furiously trying to capture the attention of the post baby boomers. From there, they will go with minivans, SUVs, ultimately luxery full-size vehicles.

An example is myself. I've always been a loyal Toyota fan, until recently, I had to choose between Corolla & Civic. I went with the Civic, mainly because it was more sportier. Corolla at the time was a grandpa car compared to the Civic. So Toyota lost 1 customer. But now if I were to consider a sedan, I think I will test drive the Accord before Camry. Just because of the brand loyalty.

But Toyota is trying at least. They are releasing a new brand of cars for "Gen-Y" consumers, dubbed as Scion. Honda, on the other hand has gone softer over the years. Nonetheless, Honda is still extremely popular with the younger crowds. #1 choice in the import scene. But you don't stay on top forever, unless you keep up with the race.

 
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well said, i agree absolutely on the forced induction part.. honda needs to get together and realize that vtec aint what it used to be, especially not in today's market.. superchargers and turbochargers are what honda needs to make performance cars fast while keeping the price down as well

 
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Fat chance that Honda will ever release a turbocharged or supercharged motor. First off, there are tons of aftermarket companies willing to make better turbos for cheaper than Honda would put on a factory car (yeah I know there isn't one out for the 7th gen yet, but still). Secondly, Honda has always prided itself on building highly reliable, high output/low displacement aspirated engines, so a turbocharger wouldn't fit in well with that philosophy. The new RSX-R will push 220 hp from a 2.0L naturally aspirated engine, which is incredible.

 
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when i get the turbo for my rsx-s i expect to run about about 370 hp including nos shot

 
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<< Why doesnt Honda make a racing division like Toyotas TRD that speicalizes in racing and performance parts ? Honda is the most modified car >>




I think Mugen is Honda's answer to TRD. Not too sure though.

 
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<< Just look at the GTI 1.8T. Fastest out of all the new breed of "hot hatches." By using an old technology. No V-TEC. No VVTL-i. No 3rd party involvement. Just strong, useable powerband for all occasions. Touting around in town, and drag-racing. >>



Old technology?
5v/cylinder
ULEV with a turbo

 
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part of honda is economy.. an aftermarket support... you add superchargers an what not.... less room for your individual mods... plus might boost them into a dif insurance braket

 
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<< but let's not forget V-TEC lag!). >>



wtf are you talking about. There is no VTEC lag. At the engagement point the engine switches over to the different set of cam lobes. If you dont like stock engagement thats what the Apexi' VAFC is for.

 
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i agree and disagree with you......i believe honda has not decided to take the route of turbo/super charging simply because of the fact that they dont need to....honda knows what the hell they are doing, but they dont see the need to impliment it into every car they make....surely they could put a s2000 motor in a civic, but who woudl want to buy, or who could afford it?

honda does not need a turbo....they can make 240hp from a 2.0 liter engine, simply put! and it will last forever

there is no reason to compare honda to any other car company in the world....they are their own breed of vehicle...low torque, "high" hp, free reving engines that last forver....

peace

 
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becuase turbo maintainace is expensive every 40k-50k or 70k mile ( depend on how its used and abused)needs to be replaced thats like 500-1k moy expensivo!

be glad honda is n/a...coz tc is plague with many problems too...or can go wrong.
i wouldnt mind a v8 vtec which was rumored comin out wid the new nsx ( not the new type r)..wid a v8 vtec who needs f/i....





also remember who rocks the speedvision touring class the "acura realtime teggys!" eatin up bimmers !!!
yeaaaaaah

 
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2 questions prankster

1. where are your pics, i was reading your mods, specifically one relating to something to do with sometype of boost?
2. why would you want an RSX fuel system, its also returnless.....

damn noob, back that shiat up?

RF Bwoy

 
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Good points... but..

First off, VW's 1.8T... old technology. In terms of efficiency. I'm not sure what VW is trying to complimish with their 5-valve technology. Take out the turbo, see how fast it is. How fast was the 30Valve 2.8L V6 on the A4? It was lagging to a BMW 328 at its time by a long shot. Even their S4 Turbo gets beat by a WRX. Plus everybody knows that when you turbo charge a japanese 1.8L, it will make a little more than 180HP.

And V-TEC *does* lag. How much torque does an S2000 have? About as much as a Honda Civic. For your info, a forced induction car has MUCH more torque than any V-TEC. In fact, V-TEC reduces lowend torque because of the high compression..

 
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IMO...

If you want to buy a car that's already fixed up, then you obviously know where to go if that's what you want.

If you want to buy a car that you want to fix up and enjoy working on, buy a Honda. Aftermarket support, aftermarket support, aftermarket support. You have so many more choices on what to do with your car instead of buying a new one with a turbo/supercharger but I guess the best thing about it is that it's covered by warranty.

Reliability will kick in your head in the long-run for the life of your car... if you still love it by that time.

In some way, I can agree that Honda should have a better performance line but with the new line of cars, it seems like Honda has to start over... it'll be years before a 7th gen Civic will make a nice hybrid so we're left with the Si, RSX, s2000, and NSX for the people who use someone else's hands to feed their mouths. (Ah, cut the NSX.) Still, these cars... though already fast, can be made to go faster. You might as well complain that their "torqueless."

VTEC-lag? What Hondas other than your Civic have you ever driven? [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/IMG]

 
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Ummmm.......

Considering 1.7L, my car's torque is OK.
But come on.......... Honda's not exactly powerful at 2500rpm..... which is the rpm one might tout around in town with

Cars like S2000 are amazing on racetrack... but it's more satisfying to drive a bigger V6 for daily in's and out's