optimal shift point
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optimal shift point
I'm looking for people with a 5 speed EX to start. I need to know what rpm your car drops to shifting from 1st to 2nd when you redline.
So lets say you redline 1st gear at 6800, what does your rpm drop to once you shift to 2nd?
So lets say you redline 1st gear at 6800, what does your rpm drop to once you shift to 2nd?
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Rep Power: 0 if you look @ dyno charts, we've got more horsepower before redline, I think it's somewhere in the 5000K RPM's, after that we lose some horsepower
however, when you shift gears, the next gear will be @ higher RPM's if you redline the previous gear? IDK which is really better shift point
however, when you shift gears, the next gear will be @ higher RPM's if you redline the previous gear? IDK which is really better shift point
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Rep Power: 400 no there is a calculation to determine optimal shift point. you cant just look at a dyno and go "whee". you have to calculate gearing into the process because gearing MULTIPLIES the power made to the wheels.
I still need an answer to my shift question, however, in order to do the calculations.
I still need an answer to my shift question, however, in order to do the calculations.
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Rep Power: 400 nevermind, I took the gearing and tire size and calculated it myself. gimme a minute to put up the numbers on optimal shift point.
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You are too funny Mr. Impatient! LOL!
Originally Posted by S2000man01
nevermind, I took the gearing and tire size and calculated it myself. gimme a minute to put up the numbers on optimal shift point.
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Even though the enigne is making peak hp below redline, shifting quickly at redline wiil keep the revs higher for the next gear getting you closer to peak hp. Kinda like momentem or something.
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Rep Power: 400 Ok using a dyno I found from a member here who was pretty much stock, and this dyno was done January of last year. (note the green torque line is the one i used since this was before his tuning to gain more power) The dyno is attached to this post. I used the gear specs according to honda here.
I used a gear speed calculator program to determine speed and shift points located here.
Now, if you shift at redline, as you can see from the dyno, you will be making 82 lb/ft torque. In 1st gear this would be about 36mph or so. Shifting at this point to 2nd gear, drops your rpms to about 4300rpm. At 4300rpm you are making 102lb/ft torque.
So, let's plug in the numbers to determine power output with gearing factored in, to determine if redline is your optimal shift point. To determine power output factoring in gearing, you use this formula. lb/ft X gear ratio X final drive ratio.
power made at redline in 1st gear:
82lb/ft X 3.143 X 4.41 = 1136 lb/ft total output.
power made at 4300rpm in 2nd gear:
102lb/ft X 1.870 X 4.41 = 841 lb/ft total output.
So you can see from the calculations, that shifting at redline in 1st gear is optimal. IF the power made in 2nd gear at 4300rpm had been MORE than the 1st gear redline power, we'd have to continue the equation backwards in increments of 100rpm until the two numbers were about even. And that would have been optimal shift point. However, since that is not the case, and the redline 1st gear output is FAR more than the 2nd gear output, we already know, redline 1st gear is optimal.
Now for 2nd to 3rd. redline 2nd drops rpm to about 4600rpm in 3rd. at 4600rpm power made is 105lb/ft. We already know redline is 82lb/ft. So.
2nd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.870 X 4.41 = 676 lb/ft total output
3rd gear 4600rpm power:
105lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 574 lb/ft total output.
Thus, optimal shift point for 2nd gear is redline.
Lastly I will do 3rd gear. 3rd gear redline shift to 4th drops rpm to about 5200rpm. power at 5200rpm is about 102lb/ft.
3rd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 448 lb/ft total output.
4th gear 5200rpm power:
102 X .970 X 4.41 = 436 lb/ft total output.
As you can see it's getting very close to optimal shift point. However the number is still higher, so 3rd gear redline is optimal shift point.
And the defense rests.
I used a gear speed calculator program to determine speed and shift points located here.
Now, if you shift at redline, as you can see from the dyno, you will be making 82 lb/ft torque. In 1st gear this would be about 36mph or so. Shifting at this point to 2nd gear, drops your rpms to about 4300rpm. At 4300rpm you are making 102lb/ft torque.
So, let's plug in the numbers to determine power output with gearing factored in, to determine if redline is your optimal shift point. To determine power output factoring in gearing, you use this formula. lb/ft X gear ratio X final drive ratio.
power made at redline in 1st gear:
82lb/ft X 3.143 X 4.41 = 1136 lb/ft total output.
power made at 4300rpm in 2nd gear:
102lb/ft X 1.870 X 4.41 = 841 lb/ft total output.
So you can see from the calculations, that shifting at redline in 1st gear is optimal. IF the power made in 2nd gear at 4300rpm had been MORE than the 1st gear redline power, we'd have to continue the equation backwards in increments of 100rpm until the two numbers were about even. And that would have been optimal shift point. However, since that is not the case, and the redline 1st gear output is FAR more than the 2nd gear output, we already know, redline 1st gear is optimal.
Now for 2nd to 3rd. redline 2nd drops rpm to about 4600rpm in 3rd. at 4600rpm power made is 105lb/ft. We already know redline is 82lb/ft. So.
2nd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.870 X 4.41 = 676 lb/ft total output
3rd gear 4600rpm power:
105lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 574 lb/ft total output.
Thus, optimal shift point for 2nd gear is redline.
Lastly I will do 3rd gear. 3rd gear redline shift to 4th drops rpm to about 5200rpm. power at 5200rpm is about 102lb/ft.
3rd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 448 lb/ft total output.
4th gear 5200rpm power:
102 X .970 X 4.41 = 436 lb/ft total output.
As you can see it's getting very close to optimal shift point. However the number is still higher, so 3rd gear redline is optimal shift point.
And the defense rests.
Last edited by S2000man01; Feb 7, 2005 at 01:32 PM.
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So, Find a good Dyno sheet and Find the gear ratios of your car... Plug in some #'s and poof... shift points. :P
The biggest problem we are running in to right now is the Vagueness/clarity of the dyno charts....
Because of the Vagueness of the Dyno chart, I had to Guestimate actual FT/LB of torque at RPM, but..... Even so, it appears that on a EX, the optimum shift point for ALL gears is 6500 RPM.
Your best shift point will be the RPM where there is the least change in torque between shifts. SO....
Best shift point for the 1-2 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 95 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 2-3 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 38 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 3-4 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 10 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 4-5 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 10 Lb/Ft of torque.
If you want to figure it out your self....
http://www.prestage.com/community/Dr...cing/1121.aspx
Your best shift point will be the RPM where there is the least change in torque between shifts. SO....
Best shift point for the 1-2 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 95 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 2-3 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 38 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 3-4 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 10 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 4-5 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 10 Lb/Ft of torque.
If you want to figure it out your self....
http://www.prestage.com/community/Dr...cing/1121.aspx
So, Find a good Dyno sheet and Find the gear ratios of your car... Plug in some #'s and poof... shift points. :P
The biggest problem we are running in to right now is the Vagueness/clarity of the dyno charts....
Last edited by Zzyzx; Feb 7, 2005 at 01:29 PM.
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Rep Power: 0 I am gettin ready to do the K20A2 swap. If I hook ya up with some points, can you please provide me with the optimal shift points?
Originally Posted by S2000man01
Ok using a dyno I found from a member here who was pretty much stock, and this dyno was done January of last year. The dyno is attached to this post. I used the gear specs according to honda here.
I used a gear speed calculator program to determine speed and shift points located here.
Now, if you shift at redline, as you can see from the dyno, you will be making 82 lb/ft torque. In 1st gear this would be about 36mph or so. Shifting at this point to 2nd gear, drops your rpms to about 4300rpm. At 4300rpm you are making 102lb/ft torque.
So, let's plug in the numbers to determine power output with gearing factored in, to determine if redline is your optimal shift point. To determine power output factoring in gearing, you use this formula. lb/ft X gear ratio X final drive ratio.
power made at redline in 1st gear:
82lb/ft X 3.143 X 4.41 = 1136 lb/ft total output.
power made at 4300rpm in 2nd gear:
102lb/ft X 1.870 X 4.41 = 841 lb/ft total output.
So you can see from the calculations, that shifting at redline in 1st gear is optimal. IF the power made in 2nd gear at 4300rpm had been MORE than the 1st gear redline power, we'd have to continue the equation backwards in increments of 100rpm until the two numbers were about even. And that would have been optimal shift point. However, since that is not the case, and the redline 1st gear output is FAR more than the 2nd gear output, we already know, redline 1st gear is optimal.
Now for 2nd to 3rd. redline 2nd drops rpm to about 4600rpm in 3rd. at 4600rpm power made is 105lb/ft. We already know redline is 82lb/ft. So.
2nd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.870 X 4.41 = 676 lb/ft total output
3rd gear 4600rpm power:
105lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 574 lb/ft total output.
Thus, optimal shift point for 2nd gear is redline.
Lastly I will do 3rd gear. 3rd gear redline shift to 4th drops rpm to about 5200rpm. power at 5200rpm is about 102lb/ft.
3rd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 448 lb/ft total output.
4th gear 5200rpm power:
102 X .970 X 4.41 = 436 lb/ft total output.
As you can see it's getting very close to optimal shift point. However the number is still higher, so 3rd gear redline is optimal shift point.
And the defense rests.
I used a gear speed calculator program to determine speed and shift points located here.
Now, if you shift at redline, as you can see from the dyno, you will be making 82 lb/ft torque. In 1st gear this would be about 36mph or so. Shifting at this point to 2nd gear, drops your rpms to about 4300rpm. At 4300rpm you are making 102lb/ft torque.
So, let's plug in the numbers to determine power output with gearing factored in, to determine if redline is your optimal shift point. To determine power output factoring in gearing, you use this formula. lb/ft X gear ratio X final drive ratio.
power made at redline in 1st gear:
82lb/ft X 3.143 X 4.41 = 1136 lb/ft total output.
power made at 4300rpm in 2nd gear:
102lb/ft X 1.870 X 4.41 = 841 lb/ft total output.
So you can see from the calculations, that shifting at redline in 1st gear is optimal. IF the power made in 2nd gear at 4300rpm had been MORE than the 1st gear redline power, we'd have to continue the equation backwards in increments of 100rpm until the two numbers were about even. And that would have been optimal shift point. However, since that is not the case, and the redline 1st gear output is FAR more than the 2nd gear output, we already know, redline 1st gear is optimal.
Now for 2nd to 3rd. redline 2nd drops rpm to about 4600rpm in 3rd. at 4600rpm power made is 105lb/ft. We already know redline is 82lb/ft. So.
2nd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.870 X 4.41 = 676 lb/ft total output
3rd gear 4600rpm power:
105lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 574 lb/ft total output.
Thus, optimal shift point for 2nd gear is redline.
Lastly I will do 3rd gear. 3rd gear redline shift to 4th drops rpm to about 5200rpm. power at 5200rpm is about 102lb/ft.
3rd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 448 lb/ft total output.
4th gear 5200rpm power:
102 X .970 X 4.41 = 436 lb/ft total output.
As you can see it's getting very close to optimal shift point. However the number is still higher, so 3rd gear redline is optimal shift point.
And the defense rests.
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Originally Posted by Zzyzx
From THis Thread
So, Find a good Dyno sheet and Find the gear ratios of your car... Plug in some #'s and poof... shift points. :P
The biggest problem we are running in to right now is the Vagueness/clarity of the dyno charts....
So, Find a good Dyno sheet and Find the gear ratios of your car... Plug in some #'s and poof... shift points. :P
The biggest problem we are running in to right now is the Vagueness/clarity of the dyno charts....
if you plug the numbers in, and under the loss/gain category, the number remain negative, that means you were making more power at redline in the gear you were in, than the one you shifted to. So negative number (loss) means you shifted too early, since the power you are making in the next gear is less than what you were making in the previous gear.
They dyno I used may not be perfect but it was among the best i've seen. Close enough that a few lb/ft off here or there wouldn't have made a difference, save maybe 3rd gear, where it would be close.
Your best shift point will be the RPM where there is the least change in torque between shifts. SO....
Best shift point for the 1-2 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 95 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 2-3 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 38 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 3-4 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 10 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 4-5 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 10 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 2-3 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 38 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 3-4 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 10 Lb/Ft of torque.
Best shift point for the 4-5 shift is 6500 with a LOSS of 10 Lb/Ft of torque.
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Rep Power: 380 this was the Dyno Chart I based the original calculations on.http://aempower.com/pdf/dyno/24-610...0Civic%20Ex.pdf
Its from AEM's site, so who knows if its acutally acurate..
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Rep Power: 400 yeah i searched all the member dynos on this site as well as the internet, and the one i used was the most consistent i could find.
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Originally Posted by Zzyzx
this was the Dyno Chart I based the original calculations on.http://aempower.com/pdf/dyno/24-610...0Civic%20Ex.pdf
Its from AEM's site, so who knows if its acutally acurate..
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Originally Posted by nindoo
when i did my initial calculations, i was generous on the next gear numbers to account for discrepancies, and it still yeilds better numbers if you shift at redline in 1st, 2nd, 3rd.
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Originally Posted by S2000man01
Ok using a dyno I found from a member here who was pretty much stock, and this dyno was done January of last year. (note the green torque line is the one i used since this was before his tuning to gain more power) The dyno is attached to this post. I used the gear specs according to honda here.
I used a gear speed calculator program to determine speed and shift points located here.
Now, if you shift at redline, as you can see from the dyno, you will be making 82 lb/ft torque. In 1st gear this would be about 36mph or so. Shifting at this point to 2nd gear, drops your rpms to about 4300rpm. At 4300rpm you are making 102lb/ft torque.
So, let's plug in the numbers to determine power output with gearing factored in, to determine if redline is your optimal shift point. To determine power output factoring in gearing, you use this formula. lb/ft X gear ratio X final drive ratio.
power made at redline in 1st gear:
82lb/ft X 3.143 X 4.41 = 1136 lb/ft total output.
power made at 4300rpm in 2nd gear:
102lb/ft X 1.870 X 4.41 = 841 lb/ft total output.
So you can see from the calculations, that shifting at redline in 1st gear is optimal. IF the power made in 2nd gear at 4300rpm had been MORE than the 1st gear redline power, we'd have to continue the equation backwards in increments of 100rpm until the two numbers were about even. And that would have been optimal shift point. However, since that is not the case, and the redline 1st gear output is FAR more than the 2nd gear output, we already know, redline 1st gear is optimal.
Now for 2nd to 3rd. redline 2nd drops rpm to about 4600rpm in 3rd. at 4600rpm power made is 105lb/ft. We already know redline is 82lb/ft. So.
2nd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.870 X 4.41 = 676 lb/ft total output
3rd gear 4600rpm power:
105lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 574 lb/ft total output.
Thus, optimal shift point for 2nd gear is redline.
Lastly I will do 3rd gear. 3rd gear redline shift to 4th drops rpm to about 5200rpm. power at 5200rpm is about 102lb/ft.
3rd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 448 lb/ft total output.
4th gear 5200rpm power:
102 X .970 X 4.41 = 436 lb/ft total output.
As you can see it's getting very close to optimal shift point. However the number is still higher, so 3rd gear redline is optimal shift point.
And the defense rests.
I used a gear speed calculator program to determine speed and shift points located here.
Now, if you shift at redline, as you can see from the dyno, you will be making 82 lb/ft torque. In 1st gear this would be about 36mph or so. Shifting at this point to 2nd gear, drops your rpms to about 4300rpm. At 4300rpm you are making 102lb/ft torque.
So, let's plug in the numbers to determine power output with gearing factored in, to determine if redline is your optimal shift point. To determine power output factoring in gearing, you use this formula. lb/ft X gear ratio X final drive ratio.
power made at redline in 1st gear:
82lb/ft X 3.143 X 4.41 = 1136 lb/ft total output.
power made at 4300rpm in 2nd gear:
102lb/ft X 1.870 X 4.41 = 841 lb/ft total output.
So you can see from the calculations, that shifting at redline in 1st gear is optimal. IF the power made in 2nd gear at 4300rpm had been MORE than the 1st gear redline power, we'd have to continue the equation backwards in increments of 100rpm until the two numbers were about even. And that would have been optimal shift point. However, since that is not the case, and the redline 1st gear output is FAR more than the 2nd gear output, we already know, redline 1st gear is optimal.
Now for 2nd to 3rd. redline 2nd drops rpm to about 4600rpm in 3rd. at 4600rpm power made is 105lb/ft. We already know redline is 82lb/ft. So.
2nd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.870 X 4.41 = 676 lb/ft total output
3rd gear 4600rpm power:
105lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 574 lb/ft total output.
Thus, optimal shift point for 2nd gear is redline.
Lastly I will do 3rd gear. 3rd gear redline shift to 4th drops rpm to about 5200rpm. power at 5200rpm is about 102lb/ft.
3rd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 448 lb/ft total output.
4th gear 5200rpm power:
102 X .970 X 4.41 = 436 lb/ft total output.
As you can see it's getting very close to optimal shift point. However the number is still higher, so 3rd gear redline is optimal shift point.
And the defense rests.
Good post
i usually shift at 3000-3200 for everyday driving, anything lower seems to lag... highway pickup and merging around 4500-5000 rpm, and once a week or two I'll bring it all the way out to redline.
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Rep Power: 273 Wow, all that work to figure it out, I just played drag race mode in Need For Speed Underground 2 with our Civic and got it right away.
lol ok seriously, doesn't car speed or at least traction play a role in optimal shift points? What I mean is if I told you which gear and the RPMs could you tell me the exact speed of the car? Probably not because speed is a variable, right?
lol ok seriously, doesn't car speed or at least traction play a role in optimal shift points? What I mean is if I told you which gear and the RPMs could you tell me the exact speed of the car? Probably not because speed is a variable, right?
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sounds good. now...can you calculate how each 100 rpm increment in difference in shift points will affect my quarter mile time. an excel chart will work best. kidding. don't do that unless you're working on a doctorate in mathematics. but great info. thanks
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Originally Posted by Keet
Wow, all that work to figure it out, I just played drag race mode in Need For Speed Underground 2 with our Civic and got it right away.
lol ok seriously, doesn't car speed or at least traction play a role in optimal shift points? What I mean is if I told you which gear and the RPMs could you tell me the exact speed of the car? Probably not because speed is a variable, right?
lol ok seriously, doesn't car speed or at least traction play a role in optimal shift points? What I mean is if I told you which gear and the RPMs could you tell me the exact speed of the car? Probably not because speed is a variable, right?
it's math my friend.
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Originally Posted by Mike4831
I think Honda reccomends that you shift at like 3250. I usually shift right around there.
For optimal fuel economy and acceleration. They reccomend lower rpms if your just cruising.
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So you can see from the calculations, that shifting at redline in 1st gear is optimal. IF the power made in 2nd gear at 4300rpm had been MORE than the 1st gear redline power, we'd have to continue the equation backwards in increments of 100rpm until the two numbers were about even. And that would have been optimal shift point. However, since that is not the case, and the redline 1st gear output is FAR more than the 2nd gear output, we already know, redline 1st gear is optimal.
Now for 2nd to 3rd. redline 2nd drops rpm to about 4600rpm in 3rd. at 4600rpm power made is 105lb/ft. We already know redline is 82lb/ft. So.
2nd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.870 X 4.41 = 676 lb/ft total output
3rd gear 4600rpm power:
105lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 574 lb/ft total output.
Thus, optimal shift point for 2nd gear is redline.
Lastly I will do 3rd gear. 3rd gear redline shift to 4th drops rpm to about 5200rpm. power at 5200rpm is about 102lb/ft.
3rd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 448 lb/ft total output.
4th gear 5200rpm power:
102 X .970 X 4.41 = 436 lb/ft total output.
As you can see it's getting very close to optimal shift point. However the number is still higher, so 3rd gear redline is optimal shift point.
Now for 2nd to 3rd. redline 2nd drops rpm to about 4600rpm in 3rd. at 4600rpm power made is 105lb/ft. We already know redline is 82lb/ft. So.
2nd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.870 X 4.41 = 676 lb/ft total output
3rd gear 4600rpm power:
105lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 574 lb/ft total output.
Thus, optimal shift point for 2nd gear is redline.
Lastly I will do 3rd gear. 3rd gear redline shift to 4th drops rpm to about 5200rpm. power at 5200rpm is about 102lb/ft.
3rd gear redline power:
82lb/ft X 1.241 X 4.41 = 448 lb/ft total output.
4th gear 5200rpm power:
102 X .970 X 4.41 = 436 lb/ft total output.
As you can see it's getting very close to optimal shift point. However the number is still higher, so 3rd gear redline is optimal shift point.
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Rep Power: 400 A. this is an old thread.
B. you can redline your car all you want. that's why it's called a redline. that's the safe operation limit of the car. and beyond that is the rev limiter. which would prevent you from revving higher than you are supposed to while you are accelerating in a gear.
C. this is optimal shift point when RACING. IE, where you'd want to shift to obtain maximum acceleration, which on the civic, is shift as close to the rev limiter as possible.
B. you can redline your car all you want. that's why it's called a redline. that's the safe operation limit of the car. and beyond that is the rev limiter. which would prevent you from revving higher than you are supposed to while you are accelerating in a gear.
C. this is optimal shift point when RACING. IE, where you'd want to shift to obtain maximum acceleration, which on the civic, is shift as close to the rev limiter as possible.
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Rep Power: 0 A. I like to use search rather than start a new thread. 
B. I disagree. You shouldn't redline the car all you want. Consistent pushing of your engine near it's limit will definitely shorten the lifespan of that engine.
c. Ah, ok! That makes more sense.
B. I disagree. You shouldn't redline the car all you want. Consistent pushing of your engine near it's limit will definitely shorten the lifespan of that engine.
c. Ah, ok! That makes more sense.
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Rep Power: 400 yeah if you beat the snot out of it every time you leave a light, you'll likely shorten engine life. i'm not saying go out and be vin diesel. 
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