Hondata ECU-Show Support
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,056
Likes: 1
Rep Power: 343 
Originally Posted by Got Boost???
Translation - "You are all filthy filthy ricers, bow down to my K20!" 
The majority of Civic owners, exspeically 7thgens, are ricers, and performance companys realize this and know its not profitable for them to make performance parts for the cars.
They also realize that the d17 is pretty much one of the worst performing motors (exspeically to aftermarket parts) Honda has ever made, and it is really fruitless to do anything for them.
Think about it, if say Skunk2 and Wings West were both to focus their production on 7thgens who'd make more money?
Answer is obvious if you ask me....
Registered!!
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,323
Likes: 0
From: NH
Rep Power: 0 I dont understand what makes it such a bad motor. Im trying not to make my self sound stupid but, I do not understand what makes this motor soooooo much worse than previous motors released by honda.
So lets take a look
its 1.7, not bad but I know you would ideally want to have 1.8 (or bigger)
Has vtec, thats a + (not sure if its 1 stage or 2 stage profiled cams)
9.9 to 1 compression- Iv seen cars with 11 and 12 compression so theres some room for improvment here
heads- for my understanding it has a decent head and valves but yes there is always room for improvment and Im SURE hondas older modle Engines dont have port and polish or any thing of that nature.
unless im missing something the only other thing that could holding the motor back is the ECU.
If I am right, we should be getting some pretty good gains with a good EMS.
So lets take a look
its 1.7, not bad but I know you would ideally want to have 1.8 (or bigger)
Has vtec, thats a + (not sure if its 1 stage or 2 stage profiled cams)
9.9 to 1 compression- Iv seen cars with 11 and 12 compression so theres some room for improvment here
heads- for my understanding it has a decent head and valves but yes there is always room for improvment and Im SURE hondas older modle Engines dont have port and polish or any thing of that nature.
unless im missing something the only other thing that could holding the motor back is the ECU.
If I am right, we should be getting some pretty good gains with a good EMS.
Originally Posted by nickm748
I dont understand what makes it such a bad motor....major snip...
Throttle Body: simply one of the smallest I have ever seen
Intake Manifold: plastic & almost un-moddable. Good for low speed torque, not good for HP.
Head: ungodly, requires MAJOR reworking of the ports, it's very restrictive.
Cam: just another emissions cam, VTEC or no VTEC
Exhaust manifold: Runners so small that you just cant believe it
Exhaust: small as well.
The main thing is to get air through the system. So simply changing out a throttle body to a huge one will not make any more air go through, it's still restricted by everything else. The motor is reliable and with a good CAI, throttle body, manifold, cam, P&P head, header & exhaust, very good gains can be made. But, if you don't do all of these, then you will only see very small gains.
When I was selecting an engine to use as a base for my bonneville buildup, I wanted to stay with the D17, it would have been soooo much easier than doing a whole swap. I talked to a very reputable drag import engine builder and tried to talk him into recommending the D17. Even with all the money I would save from not having to do a swap and redirecting that money into the D17 he said the following:
"I have never seen a D15/16/17 head flow over 200cfm. Ever. No matter the budget". Then I asked how a B series would do and he said with his standard port & polish, I should expect about 290 cfm. Thats almost 50% more flow (power potential). btw, K series = 320 cfm. Thats why the D17, in it's current form will never be a player in the high end Honda racing scene. It can be made into a decent street runner, you just have to upgrade it as part of an entire package, not piecemeal. Understand that each part removes a restriction, but that the ultimate gain cannot be realized untill all the restrictions are removed. With that in mind, pay close attention to mfg test results and the level of mods on the test car, as it will influence the HP gains they got.
Just my $0.02
Last edited by Mirage; Dec 9, 2004 at 08:30 PM.
every civic besides the si models are slow period.
when you think eg/ek/ and the previous years, they only carry another d15/d16 block which is very similar to the d17 that we have. only reason why ppl would say the eariler years are better is because parts are cheaper for those applications and swaps are actually affordable unlike a k20. i say give it a few more years and hope k20 blocks will get cheaper slightly by every year.
when you think eg/ek/ and the previous years, they only carry another d15/d16 block which is very similar to the d17 that we have. only reason why ppl would say the eariler years are better is because parts are cheaper for those applications and swaps are actually affordable unlike a k20. i say give it a few more years and hope k20 blocks will get cheaper slightly by every year.
Originally Posted by Mirage
It's all about air flow, more air flow into the cylinder = more power.
Throttle Body: simply one of the smallest I have ever seen
Intake Manifold: plastic & almost un-moddable. Good for low speed torque, not good for HP.
Head: ungodly, requires MAJOR reworking of the ports, it's very restrictive.
Cam: just another emissions cam, VTEC or no VTEC
Exhaust manifold: Runners so small that you just cant believe it
Exhaust: small as well.
The main thing is to get air through the system. So simply changing out a throttle body to a huge one will not make any more air go through, it's still restricted by everything else. The motor is reliable and with a good CAI, throttle body, manifold, cam, P&P head, header & exhaust, very good gains can be made. But, if you don't do all of these, then you will only see very small gains.
When I was selecting an engine to use as a base for my bonneville buildup, I wanted to stay with the D17, it would have been soooo much easier than doing a whole swap. I talked to a very reputable drag import engine builder and tried to talk him into recommending the D17. Even with all the money I would save from not having to do a swap and redirecting that money into the D17 he said the following:
"I have never seen a D15/16/17 head flow over 200cfm. Ever. No matter the budget". Then I asked how a B series would do and he said with his standard port & polish, I should expect about 290 cfm. Thats almost 50% more flow (power potential). btw, K series = 320 cfm. Thats why the D17, in it's current form will never be a player in the high end Honda racing scene. It can be made into a decent street runner, you just have to upgrade it as part of an entire package, not piecemeal. Understand that each part removes a restriction, but that the ultimate gain cannot be realized untill all the restrictions are removed. With that in mind, pay close attention to mfg test results and the level of mods on the test car, as it will influence the HP gains they got.
Just my $0.02
Throttle Body: simply one of the smallest I have ever seen
Intake Manifold: plastic & almost un-moddable. Good for low speed torque, not good for HP.
Head: ungodly, requires MAJOR reworking of the ports, it's very restrictive.
Cam: just another emissions cam, VTEC or no VTEC
Exhaust manifold: Runners so small that you just cant believe it
Exhaust: small as well.
The main thing is to get air through the system. So simply changing out a throttle body to a huge one will not make any more air go through, it's still restricted by everything else. The motor is reliable and with a good CAI, throttle body, manifold, cam, P&P head, header & exhaust, very good gains can be made. But, if you don't do all of these, then you will only see very small gains.
When I was selecting an engine to use as a base for my bonneville buildup, I wanted to stay with the D17, it would have been soooo much easier than doing a whole swap. I talked to a very reputable drag import engine builder and tried to talk him into recommending the D17. Even with all the money I would save from not having to do a swap and redirecting that money into the D17 he said the following:
"I have never seen a D15/16/17 head flow over 200cfm. Ever. No matter the budget". Then I asked how a B series would do and he said with his standard port & polish, I should expect about 290 cfm. Thats almost 50% more flow (power potential). btw, K series = 320 cfm. Thats why the D17, in it's current form will never be a player in the high end Honda racing scene. It can be made into a decent street runner, you just have to upgrade it as part of an entire package, not piecemeal. Understand that each part removes a restriction, but that the ultimate gain cannot be realized untill all the restrictions are removed. With that in mind, pay close attention to mfg test results and the level of mods on the test car, as it will influence the HP gains they got.
Just my $0.02
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