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I see what you are saying about dbl clutching, but it has to do somthing. Try runing in third and droping down to second the rpms will instantly jump and the car will slow way down. Now try the same thing and this time dbl clutch now the transition is smooth and there is no jump, and drastic slow down in the rpms because they are already were they need to be. There is a definite difference between the two so somthing is going on. what I don't get is what is the difference if I downshift keep the clutch in and blip the rpms then let out the clutch so I get the same affect of dbl clutching??? Vs adding the extra step of shifting to neutral leting out the clutch bliping the rpms, pushing the clutch back in and then shifting (dbl clutching) ????

 
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Thanks to all of your input(speacial thanks to Zzyzx) I corrected my upshifting and I stopped double declutching on down shift I heel Toe alone.

It was snowing so I was driving slow so best time to pratice to be smooth.

So from a complete stop, clutch in, blip to 2k, the car slipped into first.
1st, clutch in, wait for the revs to drop to optimal, actually pushing on second gear slighly until the gear just slips in(it slips in when the engine is in the right RPM for that speed and gear). Using this technique of waiting for the stick to slip into gear is working for me shifting smoothly on upshifting. Its slow I'm not sure if quickness will imporve with time.(Maybe a lightened flywheel will allow me to shift quicker, anyhow still need to pratice a lot before I can start worrying about that).
Downshifing, brake, Clutch in, (with majority of toes on brake) blip, slip the car into lower gear.

Originally I thought double declutching was needed to be able to slip the car into gear easier, but actually its not. As long as you rev match when you clutch in and shift at the right rpm for the gear and speed, the stick shifts into gear like butter.

Now I gotta pratice until I can be smooth and drive fast(smoothness is my priority, even on turns when following the line keeping the force you feel inside the car consistent). One thing though is just me or when you clutch in the flywheel keeps momentum for a little too long. Wouldn't it be even better if the revs dropped faster when we clutched in?

 
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i don't know if i'm right or not but what i think is going on is that double clutching is taking you more time to do then a regular down shift. therefore the rpms drop to a normal level by itself not the double clutching your doing. try doing the same but keep your foot on the gas keeping the rpms at the same level as it normally would in a downshift and do the double clutch as well. ithink it would be just the same. but i'm no expert.

 
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yup. you're dead on. in the time it takes you to "double clutch" your clutch rpms are naturally slowing down.

lets say this....

lets say you are going 50mph and you push the clutch in, shift to 2nd, and let out the clutch. the synchros match the rpms. what you're confusing that with, is the fact that you are now in 2nd gear at 50mph, so of course it seems
like the rpms "instantly" jump and the car jerks.

lets say you do the same thing but "double clutch". by the time it takes you to double clutch, you've probably slowed to almost 40mph or so, so yeah, it probably seems smoother and at a lower rpm, becuase you're at a lower speed.

 
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Makes a lot of sense. The rpms take time to drop on the upshift.

 
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no if you just push in the clutch downshift, and then rev the engine a bit to match the expected rpms in the lower gear and let the clutch out. It does the same thing as dbl clutching so i am say what is the difference between this and dbl clutching which adds a step??? Regaurdless there is a difference because you are speeding the engine up to the same speed as the tranny so it makes a much smoother transition into a lower gear at higher rpms. Try it for your selves

 
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try the tip about taking the car out of gear before you press in the clutch and then press it in and put it into your next gear i think that is a good one

 
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Beating on your clutch is better than beating on your tranny/diff no?

 
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Wow, I read all these posts and never knew shifting could be so complicated!

If you want to go faster and are trying to win races or something why not just buy a faster car? Our cars are simply NOT performance cars. The transmissions were not designed that way. Our cars are happy when we drive like Grandma unfortunately.

JMO

Pssssst.. Buy a WRX or EVO! Then you'll really have fun with your ****.

 
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^^^^^^^^^^Its not only about performance its about learning how to do things the right way(performance and durability). The smoother you drive the more you will get out of your car. Regardless if its a 360 modena, wrx, or civic.

These concepts translate to all cars. If you wanted to drive fast and didn't give a crap about the car you could chirp the tires and do and just shove the car into gear irrgarless of the of the speed of the car and gear your going into causing your clutch to slip. Clutch slip is not good, it wears the clutch out fast not to mention your car doesn't react smoothly causing a change in balance. Smoothness and consistency is very important at least to me it is.

Don't want to be destroying a clutch on a lamborghini diablo. more than 15 grand to get a new one.

 
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Down, come back after a few years at the track when you know what you're talking about.

 
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I used to double clutch until i figured out it does not quicken shifts and i noticed a a burning smell.

 
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It all comes down to one thing...."if you cant find it grind it" joking of course just felt the need to add some humor to the posting

 
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please explain how shifting without using the clutch won't **** up your tranny in a few years (or I say a few months)

 
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It does, which is why I said to use it only if you're serious about racing. I wouldn't do it on my civic, because it's a cummuter car. Serious bracket racers with 4 speeds often do it. Bracket racing is all about running your number and granny shifting is too inconsistent for the folks I race with. If you'r racing your civic, it ain't worth the hassle and cost (unless you can rebuild your own trans).

For the record, I run auto's in both of my race cars for the consistency. A 4-speed is faster, but not as easy to run predictably.

 
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then why did you bash Down_ for saying the correct information?

 
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Did you read well??
I know what Synchros does and what doesn't do! But as you are so smart, you should know that synchros in manual trannies will wear more easily if you downshift that hard w/o double clutching. Not because the engine speed, but because of the gears speed. By doing this, eventho your car is a new car it definetely will help to not hurt your synchros if you do the habit of double clutching when downshifting and your transmission will last longer without replacing the synchros, wich is a common problem on manual transmissions used a lot in circuit and street racing. (yes, even in new cars).

And by the way, that noise when shifting to 1st.... it makes that noise if you put it in 1st while moving slowly, but guess what, when I double clutch it doesn't happen to me. explain me why... because you say double clutching doesnt do anything in our new car manual transmission but if I don't double clutch I have that noise when going into 1st.

 
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double clutching will do nothing for daily driving, because you are using your clutch twice it will not wear it less and possiblly faster. For daily driving you are better off letting the clutch out slow when downshifting. As far as performance driving goes double clutching is the way to go because downshifting hard slows the car and throws it out of balance (as stated on a previous post). Heel toe in combination with double clutch is the best way to go

 
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^^^^^I use to heel-toe double de-clutch but it feels just as smooth without the double deluctch so I stopped that part.

 
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That is so you can slow the car into a corner and keep the rpms up . It is really hard though get good at the double clutching and then try the heel toe

 
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then i guess your civic is magical, cuz i just tried your little experiment in my gf's civic as well as my S2000, and both still make the noise.

the point im making is that double clutching doesn't even physically do anything anymore. why? cars aren't designed the way they used to be. the only thing you can really do other than just shifting like normal is to rev match. give some gas before you let out the clutch to rev match your engine.

http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...cember/11.html

now let me explain to you why double clutching does nothing, even though you apparently think it does in your magical civic....

first off, what a synchromesh does (using technical terms) is matches the speed of the engine with the speed of the layshaft. when the clutch is disengaged, the engine speed is controlled by the throttle. (your engine revs)

The layshaft speed is equal to the engine speed when the clutch is engaged. When the clutch is disengaged, the layshaft speed is related to road speed when a gear is selected. Therefore, when the clutch is engaged AND a gear is selected, the engine speed is related rigidly to the road speed. The gear selector disconnects the layshaft from the transmission gears when you select "Neutral", and connects the layshaft to a specific transmission gear when you select one. The various transmission gears are being pushed around by the road speeding under your car via the differential and driveshafts. So the only time the layshaft is NOT matching the gear you have selected, is when you have the car in neutral AND the clutch is disengaged.

now read below for my revised explination on what this all means.

 
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let me better explain why you double clutching does more harm than good.

an old car (pre-synchromesh) shifted like this.

you're in 1st gear, rev up, and push in the clutch to shift. this disengages the engine from the layshaft/gears. once the shifter is put into neutral AND let out the clutch. this disconnects the layshaft from the gears, allowing the layshaft to spin freely.

you now have 3 seperate parts that need to comes together before you are into your next gear. the engine is spinning at whatever rpm you are at, and can be increased by blipping the throttle. the gears are spinning according to whatever speed you are going, since they are attached to your drivetrain/differential. the layshaft is spinning freely of both ONLY IF you are in neutral AND the clutch is let out.

THIS IS WHERE THE SYNCHRO MESH COMES IN. in the old cars you would leave the gear in neutral and let out the clutch, giving the layshaft time to "spin down" before you put the clutch back in and shifted to the next gear. the reason being, because once you shift to the next gear even before you let out the clutch, the layshaft becomes attached to that next selected gear. in cars without a synchromesh, if you shifted right away, without double clutching, the layshaft would be spinning at a much faster speed than the next gear you select, thus causing the gears to "grind".

in a new car, this is unnecessary. that's the synchromesh's job. as soon as you select the next gear, the synchromesh automatically matches the speed of the layshaft to the gear you selected, BEFORE you even let out the clutch.

so, in conclusion. double clutching does nothing but wear down your clutch, shift linkage, transmission, etc. why? because for every gear you shift, you are essentially doing twice the work and using the clutch twice, etc.

so yes if you double clutch, you may be giving the layshaft time to spin down and may think you're saving your synchros because they have to do less work. in reality, the difference is barely discernable as far as wear and tear on the synchros, and does MORE wear and tear to your clutch, transmission, etc. not to mention the fact that THATS IS WHAT SYNCHROS ARE FOR. they are built to do whatever you do when you shift at any speed and rpm. it's like engine braking to save your brakes. sure you might save just a little more life on your brakes, but you're doing far more wear and tear on much more expensive components.

how often do you hear of someone blowing their synchros cuz they didn't "double clutch like they're supposed to".

 
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this is where you're so full of **** i cant even know where to begin. you say your civic doesn't make the "whining" noise when you put your car into 1st while slowing down when you double clutch. in actuality, it would make the whining noise EVEN MORE. so since you asked for it, here's why:

if you are slowing down and put the gear into first gear (we've all heard the whining noise, right?) the synchromeshes are SPEEDING UP the layshaft to match your first gear speed, due to the fact that you are moving and your first gear is spinning much faster than the previous gear you were in. basically they have to match your layshaft to whatever rpms your engine would be at should you be in first gear at this exact moment.

so in actuality, if you double clutch before you shift into 1st gear as you are slowing down, you would hear the whining noise even MORE, because now your layshaft is moving even slower (since you double clutched and gave the layshaft even more time to slow down) and has to be sped up even MORE than if you had shifted into 1st gear right away.

not to sound cocky but.... told ya so.

 
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damn straight

 
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I can do both bro. Double declutching IMO is useless with our transmissions.

 
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No, that is why you rev match when double clutching. Ok say you are in third and coming into a corner on a road track. You need to keep your rpms up, but if you downshift into second and just let the clutch out. Your rpms are going to instantly jump and your car will slow down. This costs you time, overall control of the car, and could even cause you to wreck. So you double clutch; you shift out of second into neutral, LET OUT the clutch (this re engages the clutch to the flywheel), blip the throttle (speeding up the tranny to around the same speed as the engine will be at once you drop it to second). push the clutch back in and then down shift to second. The transition will be smooth with with no jump in the rpms or sudden slowing. Now you are going to say that is because by the time you do all of this the engine has slowed. NO, this is incorrect I can do all of this almost as fast as you downshift. Infact if you don't really know what to look for you would never know that I double clutched. double clutching does the same thing as your syncros do only they work after you have already shifted. Double clutching for stoping is stupid it does nothing infact it will not even slow your car. The only purpose of it is to KEEP RPMS UP WHILE CORNERING AND TO KEEP YOUR CAR IN BALANCE AND KEEP YOUR SPEED UP your syncros CANNOT DO THIS. So S2000 not to start ****, but he is correct when he says that there is a difference. He may not have explained it correctly, but he is correct

 
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^^^^^^Why not clutch in, blip downshift(at appropriate rev of course) clutch out? I find it just as smooth as when I was doing: clutch in, neutral, clutch out, blip, clutch in downshift(at appropriate revs ofcourse), cluitch out.

I don't see the point of doing extra steps if both methods feel equally smooth.

does leaving the car in neutral with the clutch out help the car loose revs faster? If so I would do it, but overall it just seems slower to double de-clutch.

How can we make the rev's drop faster when we engage the clutch? It would be cool to have rev's drop quicker and combine that with a stick that requires less travel(I think short shifter but not sure on that one)

 
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it is just as smooth, however when you re engage the clutch and are in neutral your tanny and engine are together and then you rev, spinning both at the same speed. This is true rev matching because it matches the speed of both. Your way you never "relink" the engine and tranny to match their speeds.

 
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^^^^^You know what I mean though, the shift stick in both cases slips into gear like butter so I can't tell the diff. Would I be able to tell the diff in a less sound proofed car?

Cause your in neutral when you blip in both cases. but in one case you kept your foot on the clutch and in the other you disengaged blipped engaged.

 
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yeah I know what you mean, but think about how you the engine and the tranny work. And then imagine both situations it will help you understand it better. If you are in neutral and your tranny is still not conected to the engine only when your clutch in out is this the case. You are making the mistake of thinking that neutral and clutch in are the same.