Bolt Ons (kick the victim complex to the curb)
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Bolt Ons (kick the victim complex to the curb)
Most of us complain about how bolt ons do not give significant gains, and other troubles.
We had complaints in the exhaust department where people mention that they lost back pressure with a more free flowing exhaust so they lost low end torque but gained in the high end. That's the case for any car, if you loose back pressure, its designed for racing specs. I'm sure there are adjustable exhaust out there to increase back pressure (to increase low end torque) or decrease it.
We had complaints about cold air intake not giving gains. Again if there is more air coming in you need to get more fuel(probably can't be provided from stock injectors), and you got to tune you ECU to tell your car look I need this much fuel now to run richer instead of running lean.
We had complaints obviously about the ECU upgrades.
Lightened flywheels loosing low end torque. That’s the case for everyone with a lightened flywheel, its meant for racing where the car is pushed to its limit.
The list of negativity goes on.
The reason 6th gens are modded better is cause they have been around longer not only because they response better to bolt ones. Actually certain cars respond really well like the 1.8L integras.
Anyhow the list of complaints goes on and on. I mean we could swap and engine or go for a turbo set-up for some heavy duty gains but we shouldn't completely dismiss bolts-ons because of some of the comments on this thread.
I'm sure combining a generic air intake with a cone filter (to promote faster air coming in, it has to do with physics of how the air travel when it goes through the cone), with bigger fuel injectors, with a freer flowing exhaust and a dyno tuned ECU will give a good gain. I'm not saying 30 wheel HP but It still might be worth while.
We had complaints in the exhaust department where people mention that they lost back pressure with a more free flowing exhaust so they lost low end torque but gained in the high end. That's the case for any car, if you loose back pressure, its designed for racing specs. I'm sure there are adjustable exhaust out there to increase back pressure (to increase low end torque) or decrease it.
We had complaints about cold air intake not giving gains. Again if there is more air coming in you need to get more fuel(probably can't be provided from stock injectors), and you got to tune you ECU to tell your car look I need this much fuel now to run richer instead of running lean.
We had complaints obviously about the ECU upgrades.
Lightened flywheels loosing low end torque. That’s the case for everyone with a lightened flywheel, its meant for racing where the car is pushed to its limit.
The list of negativity goes on.
The reason 6th gens are modded better is cause they have been around longer not only because they response better to bolt ones. Actually certain cars respond really well like the 1.8L integras.
Anyhow the list of complaints goes on and on. I mean we could swap and engine or go for a turbo set-up for some heavy duty gains but we shouldn't completely dismiss bolts-ons because of some of the comments on this thread.
I'm sure combining a generic air intake with a cone filter (to promote faster air coming in, it has to do with physics of how the air travel when it goes through the cone), with bigger fuel injectors, with a freer flowing exhaust and a dyno tuned ECU will give a good gain. I'm not saying 30 wheel HP but It still might be worth while.
Last edited by nindoo; Nov 19, 2004 at 10:21 AM.
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Rep Power: 303 wtf is the point of this? You are telling everyone what they already know.
Also, 4 years after the d16 came out, they had all aftermarket parts available.. This is the 4th year now that the 01-up civic's have been in production and we still don't have a major company producing turbo kits for us.
Also, 4 years after the d16 came out, they had all aftermarket parts available.. This is the 4th year now that the 01-up civic's have been in production and we still don't have a major company producing turbo kits for us.
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Rep Power: 304 OK I will explain this again. When you add a cai or sri you are not adding any more air. Your allowing the same amount of air easier. If you want to add more air you would need to change your throttle body as well as your head. These are confined air spaces that will only allow for so much air. Think of it this way. Lets say you were to run around to the point of exhaustion and then pick up a straw and try and breath through that. Its going to suck b/c you can't obtain the air very easily. Now adding a cai or sri will be like breathing through your mouth. You'll be able to obtain the air more easily and you will recover more quickly. Now think of your lungs as your head on a car. They will only allow for so much air. The only way to benefit more would be to increase your lung capacity or in this case change the head on your car.
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Originally Posted by RiceRocketeer
wtf is the point of this? You are telling everyone what they already know.
Also, 4 years after the d16 came out, they had all aftermarket parts available.. This is the 4th year now that the 01-up civic's have been in production and we still don't have a major company producing turbo kits for us.
Also, 4 years after the d16 came out, they had all aftermarket parts available.. This is the 4th year now that the 01-up civic's have been in production and we still don't have a major company producing turbo kits for us.
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Originally Posted by joe6680
OK I will explain this again. When you add a cai or sri you are not adding any more air. Your allowing the same amount of air easier. If you want to add more air you would need to change your throttle body as well as your head. These are confined air spaces that will only allow for so much air. Think of it this way. Lets say you were to run around to the point of exhaustion and then pick up a straw and try and breath through that. Its going to suck b/c you can't obtain the air very easily. Now adding a cai or sri will be like breathing through your mouth. You'll be able to obtain the air more easily and you will recover more quickly. Now think of your lungs as your head on a car. They will only allow for so much air. The only way to benefit more would be to increase your lung capacity or in this case change the head on your car.
Like I said before air intake alone wont do much but with fuel injectors and dynoe tuned ECU to get you the richer burn instead of lean burn will promote gain. Im sure combining diff bolt ons will give a goon gain. Its the case for any civic be it 6th gen even just slapping on an intake alone does not provide significant gains.
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Originally Posted by TeLLy
I think (personal opinion) that the D17 got so little support because of the arrival of the K series, and since it was heralded as the next big thing, the newest and hopefully last D series (ours) kinda got the shaft as companies scrambled to make parts for the RSX/Si powerplants.
It's the exact reason. Telly you are smart
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Originally Posted by nindoo
If the air is flowing faster don't you get access to it faster? It is proven that when you have a cone filter the air travels through it diffrently than it does through our square air filter. Check the RSX it has a cone filter. I don'tr think you need to change the throttle body unless you really forcing in a lot more air.
Like I said before air intake alone wont do much but with fuel injectors and dynoe tuned ECU to get you the richer burn instead of lean burn will promote gain. Im sure combining diff bolt ons will give a goon gain. Its the case for any civic be it 6th gen even just slapping on an intake alone does not provide significant gains.
Like I said before air intake alone wont do much but with fuel injectors and dynoe tuned ECU to get you the richer burn instead of lean burn will promote gain. Im sure combining diff bolt ons will give a goon gain. Its the case for any civic be it 6th gen even just slapping on an intake alone does not provide significant gains.
Your engine can only take so much air in, (anything over that is called "boost") So that is why you don't see big horsepower increases, because your intake isn't forcing more air in, it's just sucking in colder air, which can give a hp increase, which is the 1-2 hp you see from a CAI.
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Originally Posted by TeLLy
I like to think so. But then again I kill brain cells nightly. I think I'm down to my last three or four, and I'm going drinking this weekend....oh no....
Like I said, you're smart
I'd rather be drunk than have brain cells
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Originally Posted by RiceRocketeer
I don't think you are getting it. An Intake allows easier access for the same amount of air to get into your engine. Also, a little colder too, because of placement of the cone.
Your engine can only take so much air in, (anything over that is called "boost") So that is why you don't see big horsepower increases, because your intake isn't forcing more air in, it's just sucking in colder air, which can give a hp increase, which is the 1-2 hp you see from a CAI.
Your engine can only take so much air in, (anything over that is called "boost") So that is why you don't see big horsepower increases, because your intake isn't forcing more air in, it's just sucking in colder air, which can give a hp increase, which is the 1-2 hp you see from a CAI.
I take it we agree that with the cone air filter your car is able to breathe easier.
Go flush a Toilet, you see how the water starts to whirl, in a circular fashion and the water is quickly drained it creates a vertex(cone type of shape). Now if you have a cone filter the air with hit will whirl as well, wirling will cause increase in velocity of the air travelling into the engine. Getting More Air right?... Then take larger Fuel Injectors that have potential to increase the amount of fuel to promote a richer mixture. Tune the exhaust to promote less back pressure(a little more flow) Then tune the ECU.
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Originally Posted by nindoo
I take it we agree that with the cone air filter your car is able to breathe easier.
Go flush a Toilet, you see how the water starts to whirl, in a circular fashion and the water is quickly drained it creates a vertex(cone type of shape). Now if you have a cone filter the air with hit will whirl as well, wirling will cause increase in velocity of the air travelling into the engine. Getting More Air right?... Then take larger Fuel Injectors that have potential to increase the amount of fuel to promote a richer mixture. Then tune the ECU.
Go flush a Toilet, you see how the water starts to whirl, in a circular fashion and the water is quickly drained it creates a vertex(cone type of shape). Now if you have a cone filter the air with hit will whirl as well, wirling will cause increase in velocity of the air travelling into the engine. Getting More Air right?... Then take larger Fuel Injectors that have potential to increase the amount of fuel to promote a richer mixture. Then tune the ECU.
Given the "extra" amount of air you can get into the engine with basic bolt-ons (intake/header/exhaust), the stock injectors are fine.
The ECU has enough "room" in its programming to account for the minimal increase in air to compensate fuel for it for the most part.
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Originally Posted by RiceRocketeer
I don't think you are getting it. An Intake allows easier access for the same amount of air to get into your engine. Also, a little colder too, because of placement of the cone.
Your engine can only take so much air in, (anything over that is called "boost") So that is why you don't see big horsepower increases, because your intake isn't forcing more air in, it's just sucking in colder air, which can give a hp increase, which is the 1-2 hp you see from a CAI.
Your engine can only take so much air in, (anything over that is called "boost") So that is why you don't see big horsepower increases, because your intake isn't forcing more air in, it's just sucking in colder air, which can give a hp increase, which is the 1-2 hp you see from a CAI.
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Originally Posted by nindoo
I take it we agree that with the cone air filter your car is able to breathe easier.
Go flush a Toilet, you see how the water starts to whirl, in a circular fashion and the water is quickly drained it creates a vertex(cone type of shape). Now if you have a cone filter the air with hit will whirl as well, wirling will cause increase in velocity of the air travelling into the engine. Getting More Air right?... Then take larger Fuel Injectors that have potential to increase the amount of fuel to promote a richer mixture. Tune the exhaust to promote less back pressure(a little more flow) Then tune the ECU.
Go flush a Toilet, you see how the water starts to whirl, in a circular fashion and the water is quickly drained it creates a vertex(cone type of shape). Now if you have a cone filter the air with hit will whirl as well, wirling will cause increase in velocity of the air travelling into the engine. Getting More Air right?... Then take larger Fuel Injectors that have potential to increase the amount of fuel to promote a richer mixture. Tune the exhaust to promote less back pressure(a little more flow) Then tune the ECU.
Jesus christ you can't get more air. Its a confined area in your engine. Where is the extra air going to go????
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Originally Posted by cambo
Why would you get larger injectors that will make your idle worse?
Given the "extra" amount of air you can get into the engine with basic bolt-ons (intake/header/exhaust), the stock injectors are fine.
The ECU has enough "room" in its programming to account for the minimal increase in air to compensate fuel for it for the most part.
Given the "extra" amount of air you can get into the engine with basic bolt-ons (intake/header/exhaust), the stock injectors are fine.
The ECU has enough "room" in its programming to account for the minimal increase in air to compensate fuel for it for the most part.
So the stock ECU will be able to take care of adgusting itself thats cool. In general there will be a gain.
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Originally Posted by joe6680
Jesus christ you can't get more air. Its a confined area in your engine. Where is the extra air going to go????
No need to get religious about airflow.
There is no doubt that the engine can only take in a certain amount at a time of air at a time. You have more air coming in with more velocity(at higher speeds), have increasing pressure(more air potentially) , mixing with more fuel to make it a more rich mixture and your it leaves your exhaust faster cause you a freeer flowing exhaust with less back pressure. So you are able do things faster.
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Originally Posted by johnovan
i hope you know the reason toilet water swirls... it's becuase of the the gravity and spinning of the earth...dumb fck
No doubt there is gravity but there is water applied to initiate the swirling. But it was an example to illustrate how it travels in a swirl similarly to how the air swirls into the air intake after hitting the cone instead of the sqaure filter. (But anything can be taken out of context to give a quick low blow).
Last edited by nindoo; Nov 19, 2004 at 01:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by johnovan
i hope you know the reason toilet water swirls... it's becuase of the the gravity and spinning of the earth...dumb fck
nope.
just a little snippet from here http://www.snopes.com/science/coriolis.htm
The twisting effect of the Coriolis force is real and does influence certain large things like the movement of air masses, but the effect is so small that it plays no role in determining the direction in which water rotates as it exits from a draining sink or toilet. The Coriolis effect produces a measurable effect over huge distances and long periods of time, neither of which applies to your bathroom. Toilets and sinks drain in the directions they do because of the way water is directed into them or pulled from them. If water enters in a swirling motion (as it does when a toilet is flushed, for example), the water will exit in that same swirling pattern; as well, most basins have irregular surfaces and are not perfectly level, factors which influence the direction in which water spirals down their drains. The configuration of taps and drains is responsible for the direction of spin given to water draining from sinks and bathtubs to a degree that overwhelms the slight influence of the Coriolis force.
The belief that the Coriolis force influences the direction in which water drains from plumbing fixtures is widespread and has been repeated as fact in a number of venues, including popular television shows (such as world traveler Michael Palin's Pole to Pole) and even in textbooks. We can only speculate on why people are so enamored of this snippet of misinformation, guessing that it has something to do with the desire to find some of the mysteries of science in the realm of the everyday.
The belief that the Coriolis force influences the direction in which water drains from plumbing fixtures is widespread and has been repeated as fact in a number of venues, including popular television shows (such as world traveler Michael Palin's Pole to Pole) and even in textbooks. We can only speculate on why people are so enamored of this snippet of misinformation, guessing that it has something to do with the desire to find some of the mysteries of science in the realm of the everyday.
Originally Posted by nindoo
No need to get religious about airflow.
There is no doubt that the engine can only take in a certain amount at a time of air at a time. You have more air coming in with more velocity(at higher speeds), have increasing pressure(more air potentially) , mixing with more fuel to make it a more rich mixture and your it leaves your exhaust faster cause you a freeer flowing exhaust with less back pressure. So you are able do things faster.
There is no doubt that the engine can only take in a certain amount at a time of air at a time. You have more air coming in with more velocity(at higher speeds), have increasing pressure(more air potentially) , mixing with more fuel to make it a more rich mixture and your it leaves your exhaust faster cause you a freeer flowing exhaust with less back pressure. So you are able do things faster.
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Originally Posted by JP375
Sorry nindoo, your just plain wrong on this one. Although some intakes will produce wavefronts that work to "push" air into the engine they are not altering the pressure of the air inside the cylinders available for combustion. You can only suck in so much air, in the case of forced induction you have something pushing pressurized air into the cyilnders. With a stock air intake the car wants the same amount of air, but the stock intake makes it more difficult to get it. The volume of air in the cylinders remains the same. Imagine you have two syringes. One has a small opening the other a large but their capacities are the same. When you pull back and suck in air, it is much easier to pull on the one with the larger opening, they both pull in the same air, but it took less energy to pull that air into the syringe when the opening was bigger. This is where your power gains come from. The free flowing intake means that the engine uses a smaller amount of work to pull the air into the engine, this translates into more work from the engine to do something else. Yes you are able to do things faster, thats why throttle response may increase and your engine may seem more perky, but it does not change what takes place in the engine on each revolution. On another note, stock ecu's are garbage for tuning. They are mapped to provide a compromise between fuel efficiency, emmissions and power. You could get significant gains by having a modified engine mapped on a dyno with a custom ecu. (that is if you don't care about emissions and gas consumption)
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Originally Posted by JP375
Sorry nindoo, your just plain wrong on this one. Although some intakes will produce wavefronts that work to "push" air into the engine they are not altering the pressure of the air inside the cylinders available for combustion. You can only suck in so much air, in the case of forced induction you have something pushing pressurized air into the cyilnders. With a stock air intake the car wants the same amount of air, but the stock intake makes it more difficult to get it. The volume of air in the cylinders remains the same. Imagine you have two syringes. One has a small opening the other a large but their capacities are the same. When you pull back and suck in air, it is much easier to pull on the one with the larger opening, they both pull in the same air, but it took less energy to pull that air into the syringe when the opening was bigger. This is where your power gains come from. The free flowing intake means that the engine uses a smaller amount of work to pull the air into the engine, this translates into more work from the engine to do something else. Yes you are able to do things faster, thats why throttle response may increase and your engine may seem more perky, but it does not change what takes place in the engine on each revolution. On another note, stock ecu's are garbage for tuning. They are mapped to provide a compromise between fuel efficiency, emmissions and power. You could get significant gains by having a modified engine mapped on a dyno with a custom ecu. (that is if you don't care about emissions and gas consumption)
So would a tunable exhaust(tune the back pressure), with an air intake and aftermarket ECU give 15 HP potentially?
BTW a lot of very good input guys, this is good discussion for me.
Last edited by nindoo; Nov 19, 2004 at 01:51 PM.
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Originally Posted by nindoo
So would a tunable exhaust(tune the back pressure), with an air intake and aftermarket ECU give 15 HP potentially.
Nope. The engine is only as strong as its weakest link. Here the weakest link would be the head. Perhaps if you were to bore it out throw in some larger light weight pistons change the fuel injectors change your ignition and adjust your timing, you might start to see some noticeable gains, but you will not see 15hp from I/H/E especially on a D17.
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Originally Posted by joe6680
Nope. The engine is only as strong as its weakest link. Here the weakest link would be the head. Perhaps if you were to bore it out throw in some larger light weight pistons change the fuel injectors change your ignition and adjust your timing, you might start to see some noticeable gains, but you will not see 15hp from I/H/E especially on a D17.
How is our head different from the 6th gen EX. That might be difficult to answer. Would a 6th gen EX respond better with I mods mentioned earlier?
