grrrr fwd vs rwd handling...
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whos talking bout cars that have been modified. i was responding to the thread opener, i never once mentioned modified cars...the are exceptions to everything and for every well tuned fwd, spend the same money on rwd and you will have a well handling rwd. it is such a misconception that fwd are god like and rwd cant handle in the "twisties". i do realize i'm on a fwd forum, but i speak the truth. i love my civic, but come on ..you put money into any car and it wll handle better, i have a pic somewhere of a first gen crx with a regular motor in front and a v8 motor in the trunk...how he did it i dont know. and yes i still believe fwd to be more complex, you want to do a gear change you gotta pull the tranny as where a rwd you pull rear axle and change the gears in the differential case.
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Rep Power: 0 Originally posted by Zzyzx
I'll give some examples, in a format that I am Farmiliar with Solo 2 (Autocross)
I run STS (Street Touring With Street tires), there are Many cars that are legal to run this class, being FWD, RWD and AWD, example of FWD, 1989 Civic Si, AWD Subaru 2.5 RS, Rwd, BMW 318, Know what car is the best for the class??? accordign you your statement is should go 2.5 RS, 318 then the Si. Know what wins (and is arguably the best car for the class)? the little FWD Civic Si.
another example, the old CRX Si (specifically the 88) a Friend of mine use to have an 88 CRX si that he had preped for Street Prepaired (CSP) and He's won at the nationals with this car.... Wann know what other cars he raced against?
Toyota MR-2, non-supercharged ('85-'90) MR-2, non-turbo ('91+) Supra ('79-'81)
Porsche 356 & 1600 914 1.7 & 1.8L & 2.0L 924S & 944 (8V)
Carrera 4 cyl (all)
BMW M3 (E30) Z3 (4 cyl)
Lotus Cortina, Elite (1216cc)
Mazda MX5 Miata RX-2 & 616 RX-3 & RX-3 SP & 808 Mizer
RX-7, non-turbo ('78-'85) RX-7, non-turbo ('86-'92)
All of wich are RWD, and guess what, the 88 CRX si is easily one of the best cars for the class.
WHY?? simply Weight and suspension design. so dont make blanket statements like "rwd handling is far superior than fwd" becaues its simply not true. [/B]
I'll give some examples, in a format that I am Farmiliar with Solo 2 (Autocross)
I run STS (Street Touring With Street tires), there are Many cars that are legal to run this class, being FWD, RWD and AWD, example of FWD, 1989 Civic Si, AWD Subaru 2.5 RS, Rwd, BMW 318, Know what car is the best for the class??? accordign you your statement is should go 2.5 RS, 318 then the Si. Know what wins (and is arguably the best car for the class)? the little FWD Civic Si.
another example, the old CRX Si (specifically the 88) a Friend of mine use to have an 88 CRX si that he had preped for Street Prepaired (CSP) and He's won at the nationals with this car.... Wann know what other cars he raced against?
Toyota MR-2, non-supercharged ('85-'90) MR-2, non-turbo ('91+) Supra ('79-'81)
Porsche 356 & 1600 914 1.7 & 1.8L & 2.0L 924S & 944 (8V)
Carrera 4 cyl (all)
BMW M3 (E30) Z3 (4 cyl)
Lotus Cortina, Elite (1216cc)
Mazda MX5 Miata RX-2 & 616 RX-3 & RX-3 SP & 808 Mizer
RX-7, non-turbo ('78-'85) RX-7, non-turbo ('86-'92)
All of wich are RWD, and guess what, the 88 CRX si is easily one of the best cars for the class.
WHY?? simply Weight and suspension design. so dont make blanket statements like "rwd handling is far superior than fwd" becaues its simply not true. [/B]
your logic is flawed. as each car had a different driver, your are not taking into account driver experience/skill. your saying rwd is not superior is not proven by this example...if for instance you had a few drivers drive each car and do maybe 9 hot laps each and then compared lap times then you would have an arguement...but other that then that your reasoning is
Autocross Junky
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actually its proven by the results of the national tour. Why? Because the national tour draws some of the best drivers in the country. SO its a good account as to how each car handles Vs other cars in its class.
SCCA Solo 2 National Tour Finals From Topeka 2003
Top ten cars in STS....
all but 1 are FWD, the car in 10th place AWD, the first RWD car doesnt show up untill 26th place....
So I'd say that STS is a good example on how a FWD car can handle better then AWD or RWD.
CSP top ten, 5 are FWD, the rest RWD, the first CRX pops up in 4th place following a 72 Mazda RX 3 (RWD), 2nd was a 02 Toyota MR2 and 3rd was a 94 Mazda MIATA
So I'd say that CSP is a good example as to how a FWD car can handle just as well as a RWD car.
Heres the 2002 Results , check STS and CSP for your self. You'll see similar results
and CSP in 2001 , there was no STS class that year
SCCA Solo 2 National Tour Finals From Topeka 2003
Top ten cars in STS....
all but 1 are FWD, the car in 10th place AWD, the first RWD car doesnt show up untill 26th place....
So I'd say that STS is a good example on how a FWD car can handle better then AWD or RWD.
CSP top ten, 5 are FWD, the rest RWD, the first CRX pops up in 4th place following a 72 Mazda RX 3 (RWD), 2nd was a 02 Toyota MR2 and 3rd was a 94 Mazda MIATA
So I'd say that CSP is a good example as to how a FWD car can handle just as well as a RWD car.
Heres the 2002 Results , check STS and CSP for your self. You'll see similar results
and CSP in 2001 , there was no STS class that year
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Rep Power: 0 Originally posted by Zzyzx
^^ what did you have done to your GSR? what have you done to your BMW? If they are stock then Yes I agree the 328 should out handle most FWD cars (including your GSR), But not all.
Once you start modifiying the suspensions then alot more FWD cars will show them selves to handle as well if not better then a simmilarly preped 3 Series.
^^ what did you have done to your GSR? what have you done to your BMW? If they are stock then Yes I agree the 328 should out handle most FWD cars (including your GSR), But not all.
Once you start modifiying the suspensions then alot more FWD cars will show them selves to handle as well if not better then a simmilarly preped 3 Series.
Maybe a 328 would beat a modded GSR, though I'd bet on the modded GSR. But that's beside the point I want to make, which is the fact that FWD is not always worse than RWD. Higher power you go, the more RWD is better. But a stock AE86 would get rocked by an old-school Civic Si.
-Aki
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Rep Power: 0 Originally posted by Zzyzx
actually its proven by the results of the national tour. Why? Because the national tour draws some of the best drivers in the country. SO its a good account as to how each car handles Vs other cars in its class.
SCCA Solo 2 National Tour Finals From Topeka 2003
Top ten cars in STS....
all but 1 are FWD, the car in 10th place AWD, the first RWD car doesnt show up untill 26th place....
So I'd say that STS is a good example on how a FWD car can handle better then AWD or RWD.
CSP top ten, 5 are FWD, the rest RWD, the first CRX pops up in 4th place following a 72 Mazda RX 3 (RWD), 2nd was a 02 Toyota MR2 and 3rd was a 94 Mazda MIATA
So I'd say that CSP is a good example as to how a FWD car can handle just as well as a RWD car.
Heres the 2002 Results , check STS and CSP for your self. You'll see similar results
and CSP in 2001 , there was no STS class that year
actually its proven by the results of the national tour. Why? Because the national tour draws some of the best drivers in the country. SO its a good account as to how each car handles Vs other cars in its class.
SCCA Solo 2 National Tour Finals From Topeka 2003
Top ten cars in STS....
all but 1 are FWD, the car in 10th place AWD, the first RWD car doesnt show up untill 26th place....
So I'd say that STS is a good example on how a FWD car can handle better then AWD or RWD.
CSP top ten, 5 are FWD, the rest RWD, the first CRX pops up in 4th place following a 72 Mazda RX 3 (RWD), 2nd was a 02 Toyota MR2 and 3rd was a 94 Mazda MIATA
So I'd say that CSP is a good example as to how a FWD car can handle just as well as a RWD car.
Heres the 2002 Results , check STS and CSP for your self. You'll see similar results
and CSP in 2001 , there was no STS class that year
all the posts and stories you have dont change the fact that unless you are comparing same drivers.....there is more than one variable...if you do not see this i cant explain it any other way. even in racing like formula 1 and nascar where cars are to be similar and if not identical, there are more factors than just driver. pit crew is one. in you example(s) there is more than one variable, you have platform and driver skill. give michael shumacher *i hope i spell his name right* a rwd that would qualify and he would spank you guys silly
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Rep Power: 380 I see where you are coming from in regards to a single test, but if the same resutls/cars keep showing up Year after year then I'd have to dissagre about the Driver Vairable, Simply because you are seeing Many different drivers Run many different cars (Some times same driver running a different car), and the same cars are winning or at least doing very well.
So Yes, Iagree with you about the Driver Variable, when it appliest to 1 Example, but we are talking about 3 years of autocross and the same cars are winning.
So Yes, Iagree with you about the Driver Variable, when it appliest to 1 Example, but we are talking about 3 years of autocross and the same cars are winning.
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Rep Power: 0 Ok, without getting into any long drawn-out debates, I'd just like to give some personal observations. I have been a driving enthusiast since day one of having my license. In addition to other cars. I have owned a couple RWD Nissans and a couple FWD Hondas. I currently drive a 1990 240sx and a 2002 Civic.
Observation #1: If pushed too hard, the civic will understeer. As with the civic, the 240 will lose traction if pushed although resulting in oversteer
2: I am much more in control over the 240 in a slide than the civic. In the rain, however, I would choose the Civic hands down.
3: I'm sure that if I threw some more money into the Civic that it could be a great handling and much more fun car. I find however that a RWD setup offers more confidence in the corners than a FWD one.
For a daily driver I chose the Civic, because it is an all around safe, comfortable, practical car and it's good in all types of weather. For the nights/weekends I chose the 240 because it is none of the above. Sure, it's not the purest form of a sports car, but for a couple thousands bucks you have a fun car.
Observation #1: If pushed too hard, the civic will understeer. As with the civic, the 240 will lose traction if pushed although resulting in oversteer
2: I am much more in control over the 240 in a slide than the civic. In the rain, however, I would choose the Civic hands down.
3: I'm sure that if I threw some more money into the Civic that it could be a great handling and much more fun car. I find however that a RWD setup offers more confidence in the corners than a FWD one.
For a daily driver I chose the Civic, because it is an all around safe, comfortable, practical car and it's good in all types of weather. For the nights/weekends I chose the 240 because it is none of the above. Sure, it's not the purest form of a sports car, but for a couple thousands bucks you have a fun car.
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