texas-longhorn

First time post - 1990 Civic D15B2 head gasket was leaking coolant - exhaust would smoke a little but go away, engine would run a little rough when first starting. Decided to pull the cylinder head, had a local shop do the following: crack test, mill the surface, valve job also got new head gasket kit from them. Spent many hours cleaning the mating block surface before installing the head gasket and putting the head back on. Purchased new head bolts from the dealer. Set cylinder 1 at TDC before doing any of this. Set valve lash clearance at .04mm and .06mm. Engine started right up and sounded great. After about a minute the exhaust started smoking terribly and wouldn't go away. Car is not over heating. Drove it around for a mile or two, again engine sounds and runs great but this whitish blue smoke is BAD and constant out of the exhaust. THe check engine light came on and it appears the code it is flashing out is the o2 sensor - which I assume is flashing BECAUSE of the massive smoke. It was not smoking this bad before I had the head done. Could the valve rod clearance cause this if I did it wrong? BEFORE i pulled the head the compression showed about 160lbs across all of the cylinders so I think the rings are okay. I haven't tested compression after putting the head back on, but I can do that tonight after work. If the timing was off I dont think it would run and sound as good as it does and cause this, correct? Also I didnt disconnect the ECU when I ran the timing light, but have since heard I should have, but again I don't think this is the major issue. Any feedback or comments would be appreciated as I need to get this car on the road again soon (it is my son's car). Thanks!

ezone

Nope.
Compression test can't tell you anything about the oil control rings. They could be completely missing and you would still show good compression if the 2 top rings are good.

Assuming the PCV is good, no other problems with the assembly.....
I bet the oil rings are stuck.
If it has overheated badly, the rings could have lost spring tension (collapsed).
Drinking coolant through the combustion chamber can damage the rings too.
I would have strongly recommended that you re-ringed it while it was apart, and thoroughly clean all the carbon out of the ring grooves.



Could have done damage too. Scotchbrite is a no-no, sandpaper is a no-no. Only manual methods with a sharp gasket scraper and razor blade in my book.

texas-longhorn

Thanks for your reply, ezone. I should also add, the sparkplugs are now very black with carbon all over them. Unburned fuel?

ezone

You said it is smoking blue profusely, that is oil. I must assume the plugs are showing oil in some form of liquid/carbon/ash, take your pick.

Fuel could be black or white smoke.
But you said it runs good, so I wouldn't expect fuel fouling at this point. If the plugs were truly fouled from fuel, I would tend to expect a running problem associated with rich running.

HTH

texas-longhorn

Thanks. I will investigate more over the next day or two.

texas-longhorn

Can anyone give any details on the ports I have marked with the colored arrows? Most importantly is the red arrow as I don't know what this one is for sure. Should there be an o-ring here? The yellow arrows I assume are pointing to oil ports used to move the oil up to the rocker arms and valves. Blue I assume is for coolant. Red not sure but there was no o-ring and I believe only the head gasket to seal around it and up to the cylinder head.



EDIT the image isn't linking for me, so here is the URL:
https://picasaweb.google.com/randy.a...39745113356178
https://picasaweb.google.com/randy.a...longhorn/Civic

Following up on the previous discussion with ezone, I have since discovered cylinder 1 and 4 have very oily plugs, 2 and 3 are dry. As stated before, there was no smoke like this before I pulled the head, only after I put it back together after having a shop mill, valvejob, crack test the head so I am convinced I have done something wrong putting this back together. Before I pull the head back off (the photo is from the original time I pulled it two weeks ago) I want to figure this out. From reading other posts (again ezone was a great source) I realized I screwed up by not blowing out the head bolt holes. I did buy new head bolts...SO I am going to take them out one at a time, blow them out with compressed air and put the bolts back in. Compression test two nights ago showed around 190 across all 4 cylinders. After redoing all bolts as stated above, if I am still getting oil, I guess I will have to pull the head and see if I can tell if any valve seals on 1 and 4 got messed up some how. Any comments welcomed!

ezone

Both of your pic links on Picasa gave me "Sorry, that page was not found."
Tried both IE and Firefox.

texas-longhorn

My bad. Fixed the permissions to public.

ezone

Ok, blue and yellow arrows are all oil return passages into the crankcase.
Yellow arrow on the right, not sure what it is but it looks like a root growing out of the hole.

Red arrow is an oil pressure feed into the cylinder head.

Coolant is only contained within the area immediately surrounding the 4 cylinders.



Found an OLD bulletin you can look for: 97-047 head gasket leaks, new gasket, bolts, and procedures.

Still not sure what to think about all new oil burning problems.....But I don't know what the circumstances were before the head was pulled. Overheated? Coolant getting into the cylinders?

Did it get valve guides replaced? If the stem seals are not damaged, check for cracks in the head around the guides. ( I used to see this once in a while on a different brand Asian car back then.)
If you find nothing at all in the head, then I would still plan on stuffing a set of rings in it and decarboning the grooves in the pistons.

Matt_75

So are you saying the 80 grit sandpaper I used on my head and block surfaces was a no-no?

ezone

I seriously hope the smiley meant you are kidding.


I have no idea how much or how little anyone else knows, even mechanics that SHOULD know better.

I watched a mechanic ruin a GM 3.4 DOHC engine by using Scotch Brite Roloc discs to grind head gaskets off with.
I tried to stop him, but he knows FAR more than I.
All I could do was stand aside and predict (correctly) the future.
The engine didn't last 20 miles.
Bearings wiped out.
Of course, his Ego wouldn't let him admit any fault at all.
This was my bosses' nephews' car.

texas-longhorn

not sure what it is but it looks like a root growing out of the hole.

Funny, just part of the ground wire which gets mounted on the outside of the valve cover

Found an OLD bulletin you can look for: 97-047 head gasket leaks, new gasket, bolts, and procedures.

Thanks, I will google this later today.

Still not sure what to think about all new oil burning problems.....But I don't know what the circumstances were before the head was pulled. Overheated? Coolant getting into the cylinders?
Son's car, he blew a top radiator hose, no idea how hot the car got but he claims he pulled it over right away. Replaced hose but then noticed the next few days coolant would go down a few cups a day, steam would come out of exhaust. Car ran like this for 2 weeks (keeping close eye on temp and topping off coolant every day) when I decided to pull the head and replace the gasket which had small leak into cylinder 2 (valves looked white on this one, all other were normal black looking)

Did it get valve guides replaced? If the stem seals are not damaged, check for cracks in the head around the guides.

Yes, full valve job was done and crack test (so they told me).

If you find nothing at all in the head, then I would still plan on stuffing a set of rings in it and decarboning the grooves in the pistons.[/QUOTE]

I wish it was as easy as you make it sound. I'm not a mechanic obviously but I wouldn't even attempt pulling the engine/pistons/rings. Made some calls the other day and didnt have any luck finding any shops that even do this around here IF I need to go this route. Called the Honda dealer where I got my 2011 Accord and the service guy (which is not a born salesman) said "Oh man that is going to cost you..." not what I wanted to hear. He never called me back with a final quote but on the original phone call he stated it would be around $900 in labor alone.

Thanks again for the suggestions...I will keep the forum posted.

texas-longhorn

not sure what it is but it looks like a root growing out of the hole.

Funny, just part of the ground wire which gets mounted on the outside of the valve cover

Found an OLD bulletin you can look for: 97-047 head gasket leaks, new gasket, bolts, and procedures.

Thanks, I will google this later today.

Still not sure what to think about all new oil burning problems.....But I don't know what the circumstances were before the head was pulled. Overheated? Coolant getting into the cylinders?
Son's car, he blew a top radiator hose, no idea how hot the car got but he claims he pulled it over right away. Replaced hose but then noticed the next few days coolant would go down a few cups a day, steam would come out of exhaust. Car ran like this for 2 weeks (keeping close eye on temp and topping off coolant every day) when I decided to pull the head and replace the gasket which had small leak into cylinder 2 (valves looked white on this one, all other were normal black looking)

Did it get valve guides replaced? If the stem seals are not damaged, check for cracks in the head around the guides.

Yes, full valve job was done and crack test (so they told me).

If you find nothing at all in the head, then I would still plan on stuffing a set of rings in it and decarboning the grooves in the pistons.

I wish it was as easy as you make it sound. I'm not a mechanic obviously but I wouldn't even attempt pulling the engine/pistons/rings. Made some calls the other day and didnt have any luck finding any shops that even do this around here IF I need to go this route. Called the Honda dealer where I got my 2011 Accord and the service guy (which is not a born salesman) said "Oh man that is going to cost you..." not what I wanted to hear. He never called me back with a final quote but on the original phone call he stated it would be around $900 in labor alone - which I don't doubt for a second. Guessing a $1500 job.

Thanks again for the suggestions...I will keep the forum posted.

Matt_75

Yes, I was kidding. I used 20 grit.

ezone

Not smoking before the repairs really doesn't have much to do with the damage that could have occurred while the failure was going on and being dragged out before fixing it. We don't really know what all could have happened in the meantime.

I had an 84 Mazda 626 once. At 180k it blew the head gasket. I was 6 hours from home. I had to finish my business where I was (3 days) AND drive it back home. Took care the best I could, never got it hot. It had breached one cylinder, and was dumping water into the cylinder. Enough to hydrolock the engine after I shut it off. Took several gallons of water with me.
Clouds of steam on the interstate. Stopped every hour to refill it.
Got it home and did the head gasket.
Smoked like Cheech and Chong after that, only it was a sometimes thing after a cold startup.
Rings were stuck.
Somewhat diminished over several weeks, then it became predictable. I never did take it apart again to fix it, but it went another 20k with me driving it.


You got the head off, right?
Kinda pointless to have this oil burning problem and go THAT FAR back into it without addressing the problem (assuming the problem isn't in the head).



Study up a bit.

It's not much more work to drop the oil pan and pop the pistons out once the head is off.
Engine block stays in the car.

Only special tools needed would be a ring compressor to reinstall the pistons once the rings are on.
This was the ring compressor tool I had for many years, and I got this type because I was building air cooled Bug motors at the time (25+ years ago). Cheap.



But you probably should have someone with good experience to guide you if you do attempt it.

ezone

You should try some of these, they will TEAR UP some rust and remove LOTS of aluminum in a hurry!



36 grit ROLOC discs,



plus the ROLOC arbor


mounted in a 20,000 RPM die grinder



Great tool setup for destroying a perfectly flat surface.
In a matter of seconds, you can ruin many things with this innocent looking setup.







Kidding.....


These were actually approved by Chrysler during the Neon head gasket fiasco (I called them "eraser discs"), it takes a lot more effort to ruin a cylinder head with this type of disc:



Still can ruin a head with these, and still have to deal with the particles going into the crankcase and getting in the oil and causing damage that way.

texas-longhorn

Thanks ezone. UPDATE - Saturday morning I dumped some seafoam into the crank just in case it helps loosen up the rings if they are compressed/carbonized. Took it for a 2 mile drive and I noticed now it is only smoking white-blue smoke when pressing on the throttle. When down shifting or coasting with no throttle there is no noticeable exhaust smoke. Touch the throttle and smoke pours out. Does this point to anything obvious? I need to recheck timing in case it is too rich I assume?

ezone

Ok, some basics of oil smoke diag:

Valve stem seals (intake valve side only) pass oil the most during periods of high manifold vacuum. Extended idling and deceleration are 2 common times to see it.






Now I can't tell about this part:
Sometimes it takes a blip of the throttle to push the cloud of smoke out the back of the car.




You usually can't ever tell if the exhaust side stem seals leak, oil goes straight into the exhaust and never gets near the combustion chamber.


Rings pass oil more with RPM: The faster the piston speed, the more oil can pass the rings.




So far it sounds like rings to me, but again I can't tell what it is doing when you "touch the throttle" or the circumstances.
I STILL expect it to be the rings though.


A catalytic converter can hide a LOT of the smoke too.






Possible cheaper solution to try before going to a lot of trouble:

Pull all 4 plugs and fill the cylinders with GMs "Top Engine Cleaner" (alternative: Seafoam). Let it sit several hours or overnight. Rock the crankshaft (pulley bolt) back and forth just a little bit with a ratchet to work the fluid into the ring areas and soak them, repeat every hour or so if possible. refill cylinders as they lose the fluid.
This is an attempt to soak and soften the carbon buildup that typically causes the rings to stick in their grooves.
After the extended soakings, cover the engine with a large towel to catch the liquid and spin the engine over BEFORE reinstalling the spark plugs so you don't bend any rods. Then change the oil since this will get into the crankcase and the Top Engine Cleaner is seriously strong crap. (Do NOT stick your nose in it!)

For more info about this procedure and method, google search for Northstar engine oil consumption problems and fixes. They have had this problem (among many others) for several years, and this was an official GM approved procedure.

ezone

Trying to deny it is a ring problem just because it is a tougher job or more work, doesn't make it any less of a problem. If the headwork is good, then the rings and pistons are about the only things left.


Hopefully, the soaking procedures can make the consumption more tolerable and less noticeable.

texas-longhorn

Sunday update: Dumped a couple of cans of seafoam into the 4 cylinders as suggested by ezone. Couldn't locate GM topcleaner at the local Advanced autoparts store nearby. Rocked them back and forth via crank pulley a few times throughout the day. They have been soaking like this about 6 hours, ill probably give them another hour. I did notice at least in cylinder 1 there was still seafoam liquid in it, so it hadn't all leaked out.

In searching for the Northstar info you mentioned, I came across a post about taking the car up to 70mph and down to 40mph a series of times to help blow out the engine. Myth or helpful?

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=33344

ezone

I would refill any cylinders that have lost the seafoam, just to attempt to keep the rings soaking in it (even though the rings in question are at the bottom of the set and are the ones that let the liquid pass).....

But remember:

All that liquid that is disappearing from the cylinders right now is going past the rings, into the crankcase and the oil.


Yes on the hard runs and redline to blow out carbon, BUT do not attempt it until the oil has been changed.
I would consider the seafoam to be a contaminant in the oil, I would want fresh oil before running it hard.

Post #8 talks of GF-5 oil. Good stuff.


If this procedure does turn out to be helpful in any way, you might do it again immediately before the next oil change.

Matt_75

Do you mean post #8 of the caddy link?

texas-longhorn

Took it for a 15 mile drive, still smoking. I guess I need to come to the realization of changing out the rings. From one of your previous messages, do I understand I can pull the head back off, drop the oil pan, unbolt the bottom of the pistons (don't know the technical name of this area/bolts) and then pull (or more likely push) the pistons up through the top of the block without needing to disturb anything else in the block such as the crankshaft?

I'm not having much luck searching for procedures...yet.

ezone

Yup, I'm an illiterate.
Edited.

There is other stuff involved in really doing it right, but I would skip a lot if it was me and I was doing it in the car. Honing the cylinders is one, measuring is another LOL. Not honing may double the length of break-in period.
I would probably stuff them in and hope for the best. Junk it if it didn't turn out great.
If you can still see all of the crosshatch in all of the bores, it should still be good. If you have score marks deep enough to hang a fingernail in, that is BAD.. If piston skirts have cross wear or diagonal wear, then look for a bent or twisted connecting rod.


Connecting rod caps.
Mark each cap with a centerpunch set, mark cylinder number, and direction. The cap and rod are each matched and cannot be interchanged or swapped or installed backwards.

Push, using the wooden handle of a hammer to pop them loose, install fuel hose over the exposed studs to protect the crankshaft when removing and installing.
A set of rod bearings would be nice too, since you have the rods apart. Not necessary but maybe? No idea what yours will look like from here.


Proper torque and procedure is critical inside an engine.
It is not for a beginner, even if I try to make it sound easy. I have a hard time evaluating other peoples abilities.
But you did the head gasket job, right?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3093043AAnokDo

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2843529







(There are several by this poster)

Dude, there are a ton of videos and information out there, but if you don't already have skill to do the job then you really need a pro right there with you to walk you through it. Most shop manuals have sections on overhauling, but few or none will ever walk anyone through any shortcuts.

texas-longhorn

Great info, ezone. Yes I did the head gasket work and put it back together. I'm mechanically inclined, just not an experienced mechanic. Need to make room in the garage and get this civic jacked up and get to work. I will review the info you provided and keep this post updated. Thanks again.

ezone

I stopped looking for info and videos, I figured that might get you started...

You need to KNOW how to do it all correctly (out of the car and on a stand) before you should decide to shortcut anything (doing it in the car without pulling the engine).

And know it is all on your shoulders if anything doesn't go as planned.


Used engines should be dirt cheap?

texas-longhorn

Just an update - I'm picking up the rings tomorrow. Most likely pulling the pistons this weekend. I'm probably going to document it, to potentially help others. More soon.

ezone

Be sure to decarbon the ring grooves before putting the new ones on. Physically scraping the grooves, or soaking in paint thinner, or something. Google for more info?

I used to use a broken ring to scrape the grooves clean.
Tedious for certain, hard on your fingers, but pretty effective....you gotta keep from gouging the aluminum though.

Max91

Hey ezone. Here's a suggestion. Move to the DFW area where opportunity is plentiful, the girls are beautiful, the weather is nice, the beer is good, people are friendly, and no state income taxes. I guarantee ya, folks from all over this great state would come from miles away to see you work your magic.

If not....Keep up the good work. I try to read most of your post.

texas-longhorn I hope everything works out for ya. Looks like your getting the right advice.

texas-longhorn

I am getting ready to order a hone:
Brush Research FLEX-HONE Cylinder Hone, GBD Series, Silicon Carbide Abrasive
The choice is either a 180 or 240 grit. I am leaning toward the 180. Thoughts?