stslimited84

Success! Was having a mini meltdown, but a breather and success installing the headunit really helps clear up the head

Now onto figuring how to mounting the rear 6x9's.

I'm ordering these for the fronts speakers to make life easier: ---> http://www.hifisoundconnection.com/S...id/0/SFV/30046

Weigel21

Sorry I missed your notification, but glad you got it together now.

If I may, what was the issue?

stslimited84

I misread the instructions. I also didnt realize the metal cage on the headunit itself was detachable. After cutting my thumb, i took a breather, reread your post and realized what needed to be done.

went and removed the brackets, took off the metal cage from the h/u and reinserted it properly and used the tabs to secure it as instructed

What do you think about those kick panel enclosures? I was looking and I think those would make my life much easier and I wouldnt have to drill any holes for the tweeter mounts, worry about water getting in the door etc. Plus they should help out the sound stage alot if they work as they state they do.

Weigel21

Water getting inside the door is something that happens no matter what, that's the reason most doors have drain holes in the bottom on them. Depending on your location, this could prove more troublesome with the life of the speakers and crossover, should it be placed inside the door as well. The reduced hassle of custom mounting the tweeters is nice and if/when you sell the car you can remove the aftermarket system and replace the OEM system without there being noticeable modification, ie, holes in your sail panels.

As for the sound stage, having the woofer and tweeters mounted low, IMO, wouldn't likely help with the sound stage, but with the tweeters mounted next to the woofers, the sound should reach your ears at the same time, which can potentially help with imaging. Imaging, what, is that the right word?

Anyways, without running an active 3-way network with time correction and all that jazz, mounting the tweeters closer to the woofer should prove to produce better overall sound.

Kenny will likely have more helpful input, should he return.

stslimited84

I think the hassle it'll save with running the wires up front plus all those other benefits are worth the price of admission. I was reading that with the modification to the door panel to fit the new speakers, there is nothing to protect the speaker from water so you need to either purchase a product or fabricate something yourself...so the kick panels just seemed like the logical thing for this application.

I did see the earlier post about the illumination wire. I'm just going to skip it like you suggested. As long as my brother can dim the h/u manually through its settings its not worth the risk/hassle atm. He'll be able to do that correct?

To do list:

- Mount and ground amp
- Run speaker wire and rca cable
- wire head unit
- install 6x9

Weigel21

Yep, he'll be able to manually dim the display by going into the menu, but it may be buried in the menu and a pain to find.

Also, thought the car was yours not your brothers, guess I'll have to go back and do to rereading.

Also, do some homework on finding a good grounding location for the amp.

stslimited84

You sir are correct. It is my car but for the most part, my brother will be the primary driver.

I've been looking into the ground and there are several potential locations I'm looking at. I need to dig around in the trunk a bit more to figure out which will work the best.

On a side note since im not here in the process as of yet. Have you seen this thread by kenny regarding gain setting? https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...-tutorial.html

while the process seems logical, im confused on an issue. Isn't the gain setting based upon several factors such as the amount of power the speakers can handle, the voltage h/u can put out and the power made by the amp and not just a predetermined formula for the power produced by the amplifier as suggested in that thread?

I know its off base but was thinking about it and wanted to ask.

Weigel21

That's nice of you to be allowing your brother to drive your car so much, but if it's in your name, make sure he's a good driver. Any laws he breaks with that car can come back on you. Speaking which, make sure he's on your insurance policy or is insured driving your car through his. No idea how old either of you are, don't car to know anyways, or what state you live and that states policies, but they are things to consider.

As for the ground, did any of what I said about using a DMM to locate a good grounding location make sense?

As for setting the gain, I'd heard Kenny had a how to on here at one point. Looking at it, it's pretty much the method used when using a DMM to set your gains. I'll have to through read through it to give you any feedback though.

stslimited84

Yeah no worries about the car, I'm on top of it.

Yes what you said about the dmm to locate a good ground made sense.

I linked kenny's how to for gains a post or two up. The RCA's should be arriving shortly and i purchased the kick panels so they should ship soon!

Weigel21

Alright, I have his thread opened in another tab as I speak. I'll be reading through it and noting what I agree with, don't agree with, what I've heard said, etc, etc. Note that I specifically said I, this means it is from my perspective and/or opinion on much of it. If there is something I read that I find incorrect and have proof to disprove, I'll list it and explain what with said proof.

Alright, first thing I read that I'd like to say I agree with, is not to use the bass boost. In fact any signal or frequency booster built into your HU will add distortion, audible to you or not. Using the EQ to gain more output at any particular frequency is going to add distortion to some extent, using the loudness will achieve the same results of adding distortion as well. While i'm by no means an audiophile, those who are tend to swear against using such features. At the same time, they are against compressed music as well. Now I figure neither you nor I are audiophiles, but it's something to keep in mind. If you use any kind of sound shaping /signal booster in the HU, use if sparingly. Also, for best, well better, SQ use a higher compression bit rate on your compressed music, if you listen to such.
Alright, that's covered, moving on.

Next up, I see he say's 60Hz, I've heard 50Hz more often for subs and 1000Hz (1kHz) for full-range speakers), but a test tone is a test tone, I don't see any difference when it's within the range of the amp's abilities and crossovers. However, he specifies a -6dB or -5dB test tone. I have heard to use a 0dB or -3dB test tone. While I haven't any proof of this yet, I advise against using a -5dB or -6dB test tone. Using such would, in my mind, cause you to turn the gain higher to get the same output and if your song has any frequencies recorded at anything higher than -5dB or -6dB, it'd likely clip if you set the amp for it's maximum output.

The DMM method while using 0dB test tones is said to be the conservative way to set your gains and I've heard more "professional installers" claim to use it more than a -3dB. A -3dB test tone likely reaches close to the limits of a clean output. The only ways to set the gain to the amplifiers maximum clean output (to my current knowledge) is by use of an O-Scope or DD-1.

Also he say's not to have the test tone stored as an MP3 or other compressed format. While I see this as wise, I can't help but see no reason it couldn't be. compressed formats achieve a smaller file size by cutting out silence and some of the higher frequencies. With a test tone, it's one frequency, there's nothing to cut out, it's just one frequency. If it cut out that frequency, there'd be no test tone. So in my mind, I see no harm, but haven't any proof to support my logic.

Next he has a nice little chart for gain settings. However, was made with the thought of powering subs in mind, just as the gain setting thread. You'll have to calculate the VAC yourself using the formula listed. Now your speakers are rated to handle more power than your amp is rated to produce, you you'd set the gain for the 70RMS the amp is sure to produce (I say that as it's a quality made trustworthy brand). Using the formula, it'd be 70RMS x 4 ohms, which equals 280. The square root of that is 16.73, so you'd set both the front and rear channels to output 16.73 (or as close to that without going over) for approx. 70RMS output with the volume of the HU set to where it was when you set the gain.

Speaking of that, oh wait, I see he covers that next. Yes, set the HU 3/4 volume. I wouldn't set it to the maximum you'd ever listen to it at as that is with subs in mind. If you were to say, "oh I'll never crank it past 20" and choose to set it to that when setting the gain, the output of the speakers would be at their peak at volume level 20, which would be ear piercingly loud. Then fr every level down you turn it, it'll be a quite noticable difference. you could end up with a system that at volume level 12 is too loud for most songs, but volume level 11 leaves you wanting just a little more. With the HU set for (I don't recall the maximum volume level of Pioneer units, but I think it's 60) 40, then you'd have much more range with the volume adjustment. Granted you may be changing the volume a little from song to song, but you should be able to ind a level that's just right.

Now I see he say's this as well, "Always set your DMM around .5V~1V lower than what it should be, to compensate for songs recorded at different levels". IMO, you shouldn't have to do that, hence the reason I don't suggest using a -5dB or -6dB test tone. With the use of say a -6dB test tone, setting the gain for 15 when your calculation were for 16 defeats the purpose of even calculating a VAC in the first place. Music is almost never, if not never, recorded at 0dB, so you are sure to always have a clean output. using a -3dB test tone and you are unlikely to ever come across music recorded at higher levels, but it's not impossible. Using a -5dB or -6dB test tone just raises the chances of you playing a song recorded at higher levels and if you are playing the music at the peak you set the gain for, you're effectively defeating the purpose of properly setting the gain. However, I have no proof whatsoever to support my argument, so I'll let you decide what level test tone to use, if you choose to go said route. Given you are setting the gain for full-range speakers, it may be just as easy to set the gain by ear. Distortion in low frequencies are not as easy for the average ear to detect, but distortion in frequencies within the average vocal range of humans is not too difficult for most. Our hearing sensitivity is much higher within the median of our hearing range than at either limit. You could play a song that has a relatively flat response and turn the gain up until you detect distortion and then back down until it clear back up. Alternatively, could play a test tone to set the gain as well, it's not too difficult to tell when the tone or pitch changes in a 1000Hz test tone. The biggest issue, you can potentially damage your speakers if you turn the gain up too much while playing said test tone and if you aren't wearing hearing protection, you'll damage our ears as well.

That's my take on it.

One last note, and this is more for Kenny, according to the DMM, your amp was set for 464RMS@4 ohms. However, that Sony wasn't rated to produce that much power, so the signal must have been clipped. Did you reset your gain after taking that last photo? The Sony XM-280GTX that you have in that photo was only rated at 200RMS@4 ohms bridged and really wouldn't have been able to produce much more than that, maybe 250RMS when bridged at most given it's 30AMP fuse and Class A/B operation. Even at 250RMS, it's output voltage should have only read 31.62

stslimited84

Just found out the amp takes 8 gauge wire. Should i get a power distribution block to bring the 4 gauge power wire down to 8 gauge?

Kennykid2002

iTrader: (1)

I think I was just showing people what boosting up the SUB EQ on the head unit does.
It never ran that high, trust me. I would have terrible clipping.

And the gain setting tutorial is a guide, by no means anything to live by.
It was composed of information that I gathered while learning how to set my car audio.

And sorry for the lack of attention to this thread, it just completely blew over my ADD level.
I cant seem to concentrate while having to read essays on this thread

Weigel21

That's cool, I was just wondering about it, didn't seem like the little amp could produce the power the DMM was showing, at least not clean power.

I understand about the tutorial, I wasn't meaning to tear it (and at the same time yourself) apart. Just figured I'd give my opinion/view, as I'm sure you know, their like *-Holes, everyone has one. I aplaud you on submitting the thread on gain setting nevertheless, I'm sure it was of great help to many whom had no idea whatsoever on how to properly set the gain or what it's true function.

And my apologies for the mile long posts, I'll try keeping them a little shorter and more on point. I really don't want to discourage you from being involved in this thread, your insight is of great help, and besides, multiple views are always good to have.

So with that, I'll conclude this portion of my essay.

Weigel21

Given you have the 4GA wire already and don't plan to run another amp, you might be able to save a little time and money and just strip the end of the wire down far enough to where it's 8GA on the end and fits into the amplifiers terminal. It's not the "professional" way to do it, but it'd work for your scenario.

If you think for even a second that you may later down the road add another amp for a small sub setup to round out your system, then a fused distribution block wouldn't be such a bad idea. Now I say fused because you'll be going from 4GA to 8Ga and the 100AMP fuse (I think that's what was supposed to come with the kit) is more than 8GA should be allowed to handle for any notable length of wire. If you were to place a non-fused distribution block within 8" or so of the amp so the 8GA run of wire is kept very short, then the 100AMP fuse would be allowable, but for little more you can get a fused distribution block, so why not. And if you go with a fused distribution block, go with either a 50AMP or 60AMP fuse in it for the 8GA wire.

TiggerDX

iTrader: (1)

You can strip down the wire but be really careful that you contain all stray wires. It only takes a strand to cause a short.
A safer way is to use a distribution block or get one of these.
A 4ga to 8ga reducer.

Weigel21

I've seen those reducers before, but never used them, do you know if the 8GA end is true to GA on those so it doesn't wiggle in the terminal?

And thank you for noting the importance of checking for strands of wire going astray.

TiggerDX

iTrader: (1)

Haven't used them before but with the type of clamp system his amp has (same as the ones on my PPI amps) it should be fine.
Personally I can't see going through this much work and not installing a sub of some type. Even a small powered sub would make a huge difference in sound quality.

stslimited84

I have an mmats d700.4 (700 wrms) and 2 12" subs ready to go; however that being said, I cant just hook them up. With all that power I'd need to add a 2nd battery, caps, or maybe even have to upgrade the alternator as the ones on the civic are reportedly on the lower end of power production. That being said, I'd also have to locate a new speaker plug for it.

I'd like to put mine in but there is no room in the budget for further additions.

Weigel21

Agreed, just a quality brand 8" sub would do wonders. Might not play down below 40Hz too well, but those Polk full-range speaker aren't going to like playing down to 40HZ at all. To keep with is Polk db lineup, a Polk Audio db840 placed in a .35cuft sealed enclosure powered with a 200RMS@4 ohms amp would really add a now warm low end. Wouldn't be anything that'd rattle his teeth, but it'd bring out more detail in the music. Could get that sub, an enclosure, and a decent amp for under $200.

Just some food for thought after you've got the system up and running. You may be content without a sub, but as TiggerDX said, "I can't see going through this much work and not installing a sub".

Edit

You posted while I was typing.

Two 12's getting 700RMS would be plenty, but yea, your car's electrical wouldn't like to support it. I'd wager that you'd be on the side of the road within the first month if no modification was done to the stock electrical system.

High output alternators are likely $150-$200 for your car and upgrading the electrical wiring to make use of it (Upgrading the big 3) $30-$50, you'd be up another roughly $200-$250 on cost, not to mention tracking down the plug you say you need.

Power caps are, for the most part, a waste of money. A second battery in truth shouldn't be needed unless you plan to play the system for a while with the car off.

stslimited84

as always, im open to suggestions. Its not 100% out of the ballpark, but id have to see if we can find some room to make it work.

To make that work, aside from the amp, sub, and enclosure...all i would need is another set of rca's for the sub output correct?

Even if i dont add the sub right now, i could still run the rca while its opened up and have it ready to be plug and play?

looking at fused power blocks now.


recommendations on fuse blocks? as well as subs etc?

looking at these right now:

distro block: http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...-AGU3234P.html

cap: http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...y-Scosche.html

You guys are bad for my wallet

TiggerDX

iTrader: (1)

Honestly, if you weren't ready to do a major upgrade, I would run the front speakers off the A channel of the amp, the rear speakers off the head unit and bridge the B channel of the amp and hook up a small sub. Wouldn't require any extra wiring.

If you are thinking about running a separate amp for the sub at any point I would run an extra set of RCAs while you have it apart. A little planning now will save a lot of work later. You can tap off the remote wire from the other amp and you have the power wire already ran.

An option to think about for the future are the new digital amps. I am running an Alpine PDX4.100 and a PDX1.600 with a 19 year old stock alternator and tiny civic battery.
JL and Rockford make some nice ones as well.

Also I have a 1 fared cap that I used with my two Rockford Fosgate amps. When I switched to the two PPI PC2600 amps in my Jeep, I pulled it out and haven't used it since. (the PPIs pulled 100 amps each bridged). Now with the Alpines there is no need for the cap. I have virtually no noticeable power draw even when pushing the sub.

Weigel21

Sorry about that, but when the bug bites, it bites hard.

Found the owners manual for that MMATS D700.4 and found something a bit alarming. It's input only supports up to 2.5V. If I recall correctly, your HU has 4V preamp outputs. This has me worried about the other MMATS you have. Is it just as old? If it is, it likely only supports up to a 2.5V input as well. Now don't be alarmed, all is not lost. This just means you have to be even more careful in setting up the amp. when it comes to setting the gain, DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT set the HU at 3/4 volume. If you were to do such, there's a good chance the output of the Preamps would exceed 2.5V and burn up the inputs of the MMATS. What you'll want to do is play a test tone without the RCAs plugged into the amp. While playing this test tone, use a DMM to measure the voltage of the Preamps as you turn the volume up. When the DMM reaches 2.5V you have reached the limit of how high you can turn up the HU without damaging the MMATS low level input. If you use the D700.4 for subs with that HU in the future, you'd need to check the sub preamps to make sure it's not above 2.5V as well.

As for running a set of RCAs now for a sub amp in the future, that's a good idea, but be careful. You'll need to have rubber caps for the ends of the RCA cables so they ground out. Pioneer HUs are notorious for their Preamps blowing easily, but the RCA's grounding out will pop the diode (or whatever it is) on any HU.

As for a sub/amp combo that shouldn't stress your stock electrical too severely. Well, that Polk sub is rated at 180RMS and if you bough a Class D amp, it's not likely to ever pull more than 20AMPS if set for 200RMS (which the sub should take if asked). Granted, you've also go the MMATS 4-channel that's likely going to be using up most of the car's spare power if you like your music LOUD. Upgrading the big 3 would greatly help and at no more than $50, worth it. Heck, all you need is around 12' of 4GA (or 2GA if you plan to upgrade to a 150AMP high output alternator) wire, which you should be able to buy by the foot for little more than $2/ft.

As for a fused distribution block something like this should do fine, it's got 4GA in and 4GA/2GA, that way, if in the future an amp asks for 4GA wire, you can run 4GA to it from the distribution block. The issue, you'll just have to make sure it's amperage draw and the amperage draw of the other amp doesn't exceed the limits of 4GA wire. At this point, it's 100AMPS (to my knowledge).

stslimited84

Yeah i know the bug bites hard...thats how i got started with car audio back in the day! but its a been a long while since then.

yes the mmats sq4070 is just as old as i bought them at the same time back in the day. I just emailed the manufacturer to clarify...i have a feeling itll be the same as the d700.4.


Looking at this sub:
this box: http://www.crutchfield.com/p_777BB12...er-reviews-tab


also, weigel check your pm

TiggerDX

iTrader: (1)

I checked to see if it had an output adjustment. It doesn't. I know my JVC has a hi and lo pre-out adjustment for this type of issue. (2.5v - 5v)

He does have an SLA adjustment (except for FM) so could reduce the sound level for USB and CD to help reduce the voltage. And since 4 is max output, unless he is cranking it all the way with bass boost on, he should be OK.

It will take some power to push that sub since it only has a sensitivity rating of 93dB. The box is the right size for it and should work. Don't forget some type of cover for it.
(correction, 93dB is a good rating. Don't know what I was thinking. Should be an efficient sub. I guess my brain was thinking 83 for some reason)

stslimited84

Do you generally put covers on the subs? My previous pair didnt have them and most subs Ive seen have not been covered. Not saying that is right by any means, just my experience, albeit limited.

considering this amp -->
matches up the power rating of the sub i listed earlier and is a quality brand. although as far as i understand, if im using just one of those subs, it would be wired as 2ohm correct? that would mean id need a less powerful amplifier than i have listed, yes?.

If anyone has any other suggestions for the sub, amp, or anything else i'm open to it. I'd like to order soon tho so I'll have it quickly so i can install. Running on somewhat of a timeline.

Kennykid2002

iTrader: (1)

Putting a grill on a sub will protect it from external damages, that's all they are used for.

I don't use one on mine. (Look at sig)
Just be careful not to store any hard or sharp objects near them.

The JX series amps are solid amps, I can vouch for them.

Boy, you must be the best brother ever, going through all this for your brother's ride lol

stslimited84

what are brothers for, ya know? Plus i like learning and DIY stuff so its win/win.

That jx i linked would be 500 watts at 2ohms...200 over the listed rms for the sub. Do you think id be safe with that if the gain was adjusted, or should i just look for something else?

The cap and enclosure is ordered. Just waiting to finalize the sub and amp.

Kennykid2002

iTrader: (1)

It'll be fine, just tune it down slightly.

My W3 is only rated for 300RMS, (Though, it will handle 500 quite nicely; or so I'm told)
I think I have it set at ~325RMS.

My sub, when I bought it used, the guy had it wired for 8ohm, after I got my JL amp, I took my sub out, and rewired it to 2ohm.

TiggerDX

iTrader: (1)

I use one on mine but it is in the back hatch area which is already small enough so I like to have some protection. Not as good as a waffle grill or a screen, but I haven't poked a hole yet in 10 years.
The main reason I have it is to keep things from resting against the cone. With 72mm mechanical travel, I don't like my driver smacking things in close proximity.

Weigel21

As I said, all is not lost if your HU has 4V preamps, you'll just have to find at what volume level the HU's preamps produce 2.5V. The preamps might not be 2.5V until volume level 40 for all we know, and if that be the case, there's plenty of adjustment room. Use a DMM and test tones to find out. The metal outer ring of the RCA cable is the negative and the little probe is the positive.

Upgrading the "The Big 3", which you say you found already, is just adding larger GA cables with less resistance to your electrical system. They are the battery negative to chassis, alternator to battery positive, and chassis to engine wiring as noted in the link at the start of this paragraph.

The sub you chose is a DVC 4 ohm rated at 300RMS, you may want to use the 1260W instead as it's SVC 4 ohm. No biggie either way, you should be able to keep the gain on the JL amp (if you opt for it) low enough to limit it's output to 300-350RMS.

Here is the 1260W and a couple other possible 12" subs for your consideration. If I may, are you stuck on 12" subs?

Also, TiggerDX is a little mistaken, the Infinity sub's sensitivity rating is 93dB, which means it's more efficient with the power it's given than a sub of lower sensitivity. Haven't personally seen many subs more efficient than that. However, the sensitivity rating doesn't exactly equate to how loud the sub will be. Some of the loudest subs made have a lower sensitivity. There are other T/S Parameters involved in figuring how the sub will perform and how loud it will play. Also, the enclosure can easily make or break a sub. The best sub in the world will sound like crap and have poor SPL from a poorly constructed and improperly compatible enclosure while a fairly inexpensive sub can perform reasonably well in a properly constructed and compatible enclosure.

Personally, and it's just that, I have come to find I prefer downward \firing enclosures when it comes to a sealed setup. However, at the same time, I prefer smaller drivers as well. Oddly enough, my current sub is a
Polk MM1240D, I have found it to be a very tight and accurate sub, it's not really made for SPL, but it get loud enough for me and if I play some 3 6 mafia, Tech N9ne, Eminem, or some other bass heavy rap, it can effectively make my rear view completely useless (although that's a poor measurement of how hard it hits). I do have a Radioshack SPL meter (not entirely sure how accurate it really is) and have been able to hit 118dB with the sub getting 450RMS.

The distribution block you linked is fine, it'll do the job needed.

The Power cap, I'd really like to talk you out of wasting your money on that. I bought into the hype years back and opted for a 100 Farad battery sized capacitor. With they system I had at the time (two Infinity Kappa Perfect 10.1 subs powered off an Infinity Reference 611a, Alpine CDA-9833 powering Alpine SPS-46C2 speakers up front, and an MTX Thunder 4122 powering Alpine SPS-69C2 in the rear of a 94 Corsica), it did eliminate my headlight dimming. However, it didn't address the issue of an insufficient electrical system. After switching to a Memphis 16-MCD1000 running at 1 ohm and Memphis 16-MCA2004 running at 50RMSx4, Dimming became an issue once again. Caps are merely band aids in most situations they are used and are not the fix all many manufacturers claim.

As for grills, I use/used them before switching to downward firing enclosures as I like to retain a functional trunk. Last thing you want is for the sub to hit something you put in the trunk and have it punch a hole through the cone or tear the surround. They're cheap insurance IMO.

Enclosure is pretty decent, SO may use smaller 5/8" MDF vs the recommended 3/4", but they do a nice job bracing it to reduce panel flexing. Really, the only thing I wish they'd change, it'd be nice if they used a double baffle.

Hope I didn't skip over anything.

Oh yeah, amps. That JL should do fine, but other alternatives could be amps by RE Audio, Orion, Hifonics, Alpine, Kicker, Rockford Fosgate, or even Soundstream for a similar cost or less. Now that's not to say any of the amps I am referring to, didn't list the models though, are a better choice, just alternative choices. for instance, Hifonics and RE Audio offer up more power for the price given many of them are 1 ohm stable. Just something to keep in mind if you think you might like more bass than 1 12" lower powered sub can produce. Although from the looks/sound of your build, excessive bass isn't what you're looking to obtain.