Sactocivic

Hi guys, I've been lurking for a while now and done lots of reading, but I'm wondering about this:
If I'm going to do a 3X3, can I use any brand of compatible atf for the first, or first 2 drain and fills and then Honda atf for the last or last 2 fills?
The reason I ask is A. I'm a cheap bast**d, and B. I'm a poor bast**d too.
I picked up some gaskets at the local dealer (for 100% more than Majestic's price :/ ) to clean the TB and iacv and noticed the Honda atf is $10/qt.
I've got an 00 ex with 230,xxx mi. And while it runs and shifts great, I don't want to wait for symptoms to develop before at least changing the atf.
What I'm getting at is, should I do a 1X1 with honda atf or a 3X3 using honda fluid for the last fill only? Any suggestions?

TIA,
SactoCivic

ezone

That's an old car, probably doesn't absolutely need the latest and greatest Honda branded fluid...Some people in this forum swear by Valvoline Maxlife, check price?

Sactocivic

Thanks Ezone, valvoline is $17/ gal at Wallyworld. I was curious to see what you would think. I think I'll use the Valvoline for a 3X3 and if I don't like the way it shifts I'll replace it with the Honda atf.
BTW Ezone, I'd like to say thank you for all the assistance you've given over the years. You're a fantastic resource for so many of the guys around here. I'm still reading a lot of the old topics, and getting familiar with the civic. Thanks !

ezone

Ignore just about anything I wrote in 2012, I quit smoking early in that year and it took 10-12 months to get past the "kill everyone" stage of withdrawals.

Wankenstein

I've used Valvoline Maxlife (full synthetic with seal sweller) on a 6th and 7th gen Civic over 30k miles ago without issue...I also added a bottle of LubeGard red at that time during 3x3 D&F.

Castrol Multi Vehicle Import synthetic blend (no seal sweller) also works well.
Wlalmart has lowest prices. Ezone has helped to cure more ills (car issues) than ER, Grey's Anatomy and Scrubs combined..LOL

Sactocivic

Too late E! I know the sentiment.

Mega, thanks for that. I was thinking $90-100 was going to be kinda expensive for a diy tranny flush with the Honda ATF. For $17 per gallon I'll follow the service manual procedure for a 3X3 using the Valvoline.

One other observation I've made is when shifting into drive it seems to take the tranny about a second to completely engage. Like, the moment the shifter hits D, the car starts to creep forward, but a fraction of a second of a second later I feel a soft little 'thud' and the tranny is fully engaged in 1st gear. Is this typical/normal behavior for the B4RA? Or maybe time to clean the linear and shift solenoids?
The car has always had that momentary hesitation when going into gear, and it doesn't bother me, I'm just wondering if they all do it?

Thanks guys!

Wankenstein

Cleaning the shift solenoid screen never hurts (but, may not help). I've read on various sites that hard shifts are normal for 6th gens. My old 6th gen was an EX and they are geared differently than base models.

Sactocivic

Here's an interesting development:
I did a drain and fill, 3qts out, 3 qts. in and took the car for a drive. Stopped, shut it off, came back and started it and it wouldn't come out of park. I hit the brake a few times and jiggled the button on the shifter a bit with no luck. I shut it off, removed the key, started it again and it shifted to reverse and into drive normally. I drove home, shifted to park and then tried reverse and the shifter was locked in park again. I shut it off and started it a few times without any luck. I'm going to check the brakelights/ brake light switch and then I guess onto the solenoid in the console.
Anyone have other ideas?

Colin42

check the solenoid, does it work fine if you use the interlock overide? There's a little cover above park on the console that you have to pop off and then use the key or a screwdriver to push straight down

Sactocivic

Thanks Colin, it shifts if I use the over ride, and the solenoid is functional, when I turn the key on the solenoid actuates for a split second, and if I time it perfectly I can get it out of park without the override, but when I press the brake pedal the solenoid doesn't move.
I read in another topic somewhere to verify that I have break lights, and I do, so the brakelight switch is functional as well.

Wankenstein

After the drain and fill did you check the ATF fluid level while engine is operating temp and idling? After a D&F I like get the car up to opertaing temp and then shift through the gears (including reverse) several times while the brakes are engaged. Check ATF level then do a 10 minute test drive then check ATF again.

Sactocivic

Hi Mega, I checked a bit ago, with the car warm, and it's a little high, about 1/4 - 3/8" above the upper mark. I didn't think much about it as I emptied exactly 3 qts. And replaced it with 3 qts.
The check engine light is on now, with a 1106 - baron pressure range performance problem and a 0113- intake air temperature sensor 1 circuit high. I don't know what those would have to do with the atf? Maybe it's just coincidence all of this occurred at the same time.
EDIT- the park pin switch and switch lock solenoid are both good. Verified the solenoid with a 12v test and it functions, the park pin switch tests out according to the fsm procedure, Open on pins 3 and 4 when in park, continuity in every other position.

ezone

Probably normal when you engage Drive. Lots of older Hondas do it.
The thing is set up to engage 2nd briefly so there isn't a big sudden "lurch" especially if the engine is cold and the idle is high, then it engages 1st gear and it's ready to go.

And those older trannys always did seem to shift a bit firmer than newer trannys.




Overfill is not good, if it's too high the fluid can foam and lose hydraulic pressure. That's bad.
2.5 quarts is where I'd start with the fill, then check it.... and you know fluid is checked with engine OFF


IAT sensor unplugged?

Sactocivic

Checked with engine off, it's not a th350

IAT sensor plugged in as well as as MAP sensor. When I did the iacv and TB clean the other day I made sure everything went back together properly. I wiped off the IAT with a rag but that's it, no solvents used on either one. Also, I did the tb/iacv on Sat. And the car has been running fine since then.
However, now that it's dark and I can see the dash lights clearly, when I turn the key to position 2 both the Park and the D4 indicators are illuminated. The D4 indicator goes out after about 4 seconds, right as something in the computer on the pass. side makes a click. The P indicator stays illuminated.
Any ideas?

ezone

Normal during bulb check.

Wankenstein

Damn it I should have checked the FSM.

On my old 6th gen out of curiosity I checked ATF level with engine at operating temp, after driving for 20 minutes and checked with engine running and with then with the engine off and the level was the same each way. Over the course of a few months I checked a few times with engine both on and off and the atf level was always the same.

ezone

Honda is the only manufacturer I know of that dictates checking ATF with the engine OFF.

99% of the population (owners AND mechanics) aren't aware of that and check it with the engine running....and many end up very overfilled because of it.

Sactocivic

I reset the computer by disconnecting the bat terminal, CEL cleared...until I put the car in gear and it came back on, but now I have code 13 again, the baro pressure sensor. I went for a drive and it won't upshift until about 4.5-5k rpm regardless of throttle position. I can force it from 1st to 2nd by moving the gear shift front D4 into 2. But then selecting D3 or D4 has no effect. With the throttle just cracked on a flat road it doesn't shift into 3rd until about 50k rpm. When coming down the off ramp I put it I need neutral and the car maintained 3k rpm with out me touching the throttle. It now consistently idles above 2k.

Concerning the codes, is the barometric pressure sensor the same as MAP?

ezone

Check codes using a real scanner, not the flashing light method.
Use a scanner that can display live operating data and check:

Key on/engine off, MAP and BARO readings should be equal
Key on/engine running, MAP should change a bunch, baro should not change

Reading taken during wide open throttle acceleration is used to judge BARO by comparing it to MAP. If the intake tubing or air filter is very restricted that can cause a false baro code.




See what IAT value is in the data list. If it shows about -40* there's an open circuit somewhere. Broke a wire?
If you short the 2 wires in the IAT plug with a paper clip, the scanner should read well above 250*, that would tell me both wires are intact and the PCM can still read it so the sensor must be at fault.

Sactocivic

E, I don't have a scanner of my own, I stopped.at Danger Zone and borrowed theirs. The kid told me the Bosch they have is dumbed down for store use and won't display live data. It just showed the same 2 codes as the CEL. I'll try to find one tomorrow to see the live stream.
Other observations: After resetting the ecu the car will settle into a 1k rpm idle until I shift into gear and then without touching the throttle, rpm will slowly rise (while in gear) to about 2800. The car goes down the road like that indefinitely. If I select neutral the rpm rises to 3k and sits there. However, if I leave the selector in D4 and apply the brakes, moments after I get stopped the idle drops back down to about 1000. It only returns to 1k when the car completely stops moving. When I take my foot off the brake it will surge a little and then climb back to 27-2800rpm and hold that rpm in first without shifting. I have to press the throttle and get the rpm up to almost 5k before it will shift into second, with an awful lurch.
Is this observation helpful at all?

I loved my civic until this afternoon
SactoCivic

Wankenstein

Not sure if this will help or even possible (wait for Ezone's opinion) with your particular car. From this thread: http://www.clubcivic.com/forum/threa...re-wtf.128775/

Reply #12 (copied and pasted): "What I did was unplug the baro, unplugged the ecu and took the negative off my battery as well as the the ecu fuse .I waited approximate 10 minutes plugged everything back up and it fixed my problem."

Update:
After reading a few more posts it appears older Hondas had an external baro and in later models it's part of the ECU.

Colin42

Do you have a smart phone?
Pick up one of these:

And then pay the couple bucks for the full "Torque" app.
You'll be able to scan and erase codes and see live data.

Wankenstein

Did you say fully torqued?:

Sactocivic

Ordered for delivery today, going to see if I can get my hands on one this morning though, don't want to wait until amazon delivers to get started

Sactocivic

I got my hands on a cen-tech 60794 obd2 & CAN scan tool, though it does not report BARO info. Everything else appears normal, IAT = 138f, MAP=3.9-4.1 psi while idling at 900 rpm +/- with ectopic @ 190-200*f.
However, it's also reporting TP= 58% at idle and LOAD% = 27% at idle.
There were no tps codes in the ecu prior to clearing.
If I press the gas to maintain 2500rpm, the TP= 64% though the pedal is barely pushed. When the car returns to idle the TP goes back to 58%.

Will a better scanner report BARO? IS BARO part of the Enhanced obd2 mode 6, which this scanner doesn't read?

ezone

Problem, if the scan is reporting the truth. I think a basic value for closed throttle is around 10%.

Better check actual TPS output voltage before going any further.

Sactocivic

@ idle VDC= 2.751 - 2.759 back probed @ ecu
Key on engine off, throttle closed, vdc= 2.71, tps% = 54.5
Key on engine off, throttle to the floor, vdc= 4.7, tps% = 94.9

ezone

Is the throttle blade not closing all the way? Cable adjusted too tight? Floormat laying on top of the gas pedal?
The high voltage reading + high RPM indicates it could be held partway open.


Backprobe at the TPS connector, you should find 3 wires:
One is +5v reference
One is ground
One is signal return (sensor output)

If you have +5v and ground present and accurate, but the output is not correct then the TPS is deemed faulty. Throttle fully closed, TPS voltage output should be around 0.49v.

If TPS is way off, the ECM could be taking its BARO comparison at the wrong times and setting a false code.

Sactocivic

TPS pin 1 + 2 = 800 ohm. Pass
TPS pin 2 + 3 = 1,060 ohm. Fail. (Pass = +/- 4.5k)

The throttle blade is closing completely to the adjuster screw, nothing interfering with pedal or butterfly movement. Looks like I'll be replacing the tps. A used TB at the junkyard is the same price as the sensor from Danger Zone. Too bad I can't get one from honda by itself.

Drill out the factory screws to replace?

ezone

Breakaway screws: Centerpunch and small hammer to unscrew them