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Hi there. I went to change my oil today on my 99 Honda Civic LX (D16Y7) and noticed a pretty fast leak that wasn't there before. When inspecting the underside of the car, oil appears to run along the entire length of the oil pan, from the timing cover to the transmission, and even on the transmission. I changed my timing belt, front main seal, and all that jazz about 20k miles ago. I took the upper timing cover off just now and tried to look down towards the front main seal as best as I could and see only a small amount of oil, but it almost looks like it's just lightly trickling in from the manifold cover. It's obviously too difficult to see for certain without taking off the lower cover, but it really looks like there isn't much down there.

Based on this information, do you guys think I should hedge my bets on an oil pan gasket? Or should I try my best to sneak the lower timing cover off just to be safe? (I live in an apartment complex so I have to be a ninja about this type of work. I'd rather not take the lower cover off unless you guys think it's a must.) I've owned the car for about 60k miles and never changed the oil pan gasket, so I hope it's just that. Thanks for any help. As it currently stands, my car is completely drained of oil and I don't want to fill it back up until I have a fighting chance at making the leak stop.

 
Rep Power: 518

If one can't pinpoint the source, I usually recommend a thorough cleaning so you can start fresh looking for leaks, instead of "looking for the fresh turd in an outhouse".

Once the metal is all clean, a coat of white powder (Right Guard, foot powder spray, bath talc, etc.) helps make leakage more obvious.

Also keep in mind that oil runoff from the oil filter change runs toward the trans and bellhousing. An oil sending unit leak could send oil to the same area. You might be seeing leftovers instead of active leaks.

Just random thoughts, HTH

 
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Thanks much for the reply. So when I got under the car, I noticed that some of the oil pan nuts and bolts were only on finger tight. I had my "aha!" moment, and decided it was the oil pan gasket. I bought a FelPro because I really wanted this fixed today and didn't want to wait to buy OEM on this. Unfortunately, there is still a major leak dripping from the bottom of the lower timing cover. I don't know if that means if it's indeed my crank seal, or if I just messed up on installing the new gasket. I used gasket sealant on both ends, but I didn't let it dry before adding oil and starting it... could that have screwed things up? I tightened all bolts to spec using a torque wrench, and in the appropriate order.

The thing about the crank seal is that I used all OEM parts a year and a half ago when I replaced the timing belt and everything. And when I look down into the lower timing cover area, I don't really see any oil... the timing belt is dry. I'm going to cry like a girl if I have to tear it all back down to the timing belt.

Any pointers would be extremely awesome.

 
Rep Power: 518

If it's coming out of the timing cover, it COULD be the front crank seal, but it could be the cam seal, the oil pump gaskets, valve cover gasket..... Any leakage within the timing cover area ends up coming out at the bottom.

Most places that would leak in that area are routed away from the timing belt so it stays pretty clean.

There have been times I have taken enough apart to get all of the timing covers off, then put the valve cover and pulley back on so I could run the engine and watch where the leak starts. Yeah it can be time consuming.


Take it apart, clean everything well, then start looking all over again?

At 150K+ I'd expect a front cam seal if it's still original...

 
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When I replaced my timing belt, I replaced my camshaft and crank shaft seals using OEM parts. Yesterday, when I took the valve cover and upper timing cover off, I couldn't see any oil coming from the valve cover gasket, so I'm guessing I screwed up on the cam or crank seals. If only the lower timing cover was transparent.

I guess my dilemma at this point is that since I live in an apartment complex, I can't really pull the side of the engine off to evaluate where the leak is coming from. I'm going to try to see if I can get a friend to let me use their garage and try to get this done in a single shot. I'm guessing the only way to guarantee that is buying buying a brand new cam and crank seal... that sound about right?

 
Rep Power: 518

Have everything lined up ahead of time, or have a well stocked warehouse you can run to to get what you need ASAP LOL.


If the engine has a ton of miles, I always expect leaks to be form original rubber seals and gaskets that have hardened. Heat and time makes the rubber hard and brittle.

Example....
I know the cam seals sometimes have to be driven deeper than flush in order to get the outer lip to cover the surface on the camshaft. I chased one leak that was because of a mis-installed seal. Twice on the same car, the tech that did it just installed it flush with the outer part of the aluminum (not deep enough) the same way each time. The outer lip wasn't doing anything.

A cam seal leak is usually routed behind the inner cover away from the timing belt. You can see how the shield part of the inner cover is designed wen the cam gear is off.

 
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Thanks much for your help. I'll start rounding up my timing belt tools and take a shot at this again. Out of curiosity, should I replace the manifold gasket every time I take it off? Are there any other gaskets you recommend I replace while doing this? For instance, I saw on another thread that the oil pump gasket should be replaced when changing the oil pan gasket... If I replace the oil pan gasket again with OEM this time, should I look into changing the oil pump gasket?

Oddly enough, two days ago I did a seafoam treatment on my car (1/3 in gas, 1/3 in oil, 1/3 in intake). As directed in another post, I revved it a few times to 4-5k rpms... definitely didn't redline it. I'm wondering if that was enough force to dislodge the gasket. D'oh...

 
Rep Power: 518

Depends %u00AE.

To do it right without worries, replace gaskets for every item you take apart, every time.

The reality is that quite often gaskets can be reused without a problem......but if there IS a problem, it's your fault for not using new.

I usually don't have issues reusing many of the steel gaskets, and the donut gasket on the exhaust flex joints. Same for some of the rubber gaskets IF they are already new and/or still soft and pliable.


Depends %u00AE.

You have a 15 year old car with (wild guess) 150k+ miles. Every original rubber gasket and seal is suspect. How many are feasible to do in the areas you will be taking apart?

Depends %u00AE.



The pan and the timing belt stuff all must come off to do the pump, so IF the pump needs to be resealed now would be the ideal time to do it.
If you have to take it all apart again later to reseal the pump, you'll be cussing even more.

You can't cause it that way.



Again, double and triple check for the true source of the leakage before getting carried away.

And now that I'm thinking about it......
Depending on the design of the original oil pan gasket (steel pan/flat rubber gasket), there were embedded washers molded into the rubber strip at the bolt holes.
Those washers tend to stick to the block when the old gasket is pulled off, and stay in place on the block, usually on the studs.
If you don't know to look for and remove them, you can easily overlook them and install the new gasket over the washers, which creates a thin gap leading directly to a huge honkin' oil leak.

Don't ask how I know this.

Examine your old pan gasket, see if one of the embedded washers is missing. It's probably still stuck to the block.




HTH

 
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You are awesome. That's again for all your help. I will definitely check the old crusty gasket pieces in the grocery bag on my porch and see if I can find any missing grommets.

I think I'm down to the last couple questions. So if I don't remove the water pump, do I need to drain and refill the radiator if I have to replace the cam or crank seal? Or can I leave it filled? Also, I just put in 4 liters of Mobil 1 synthetic that I don't want to go down the drain. Can I drain it into my oil pan and reuse it assuming I don't get any debris in it? Thank you kindly.

 
Rep Power: 518

Good luck. It really could be that simple. And aggravating LOL

No need to drain it. No reason to unless you want to.

I suppose so, if you can keep it clean. An empty 5 quart oil jug and a big funnel works good unless you knock it over.

HTH

 
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Hey, so I checked the old gasket and none of the grommets are missing. So I'm just going to go ahead and prepare this thing for a teardown to replace the cam and crank seals once again. Also, I found this thread that revealed a similar problem with oil coming from the lower timing cover: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...seal-leak.html

The thread describes replacing an oil pump o-ring. I don't know if I'm using the wrong search terms, but in the event this is my problem as well, does anyone know of a decent DIY thread to replace this while I've got everything taken apart?

Thanks again...

 
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I could use a little clarification if someone could help. I was told to consider replacing the oil pump seal in addition to the crank and cam seals. When I look at the diagram on Majestic Honda, I'm a bit confused: http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...-+OIL+STRAINER

When I replaced my timing belt, I replaced seal #18 in the diagram above. Is that the oil seal? Or the crank seal? Or are they the same thing?

 
Rep Power: 518

Different names for the same item. The front crankshaft seal IS an oil seal.
Could also be called an oil pump seal, just because it is mounted to the oil pump.

You have to realize that there can be many names for the same part. I might have to be able to ID any given part in many different ways. The service manual may not call something the same name the parts catalog calls something. I still have to be able to find what *I* need in both.
Other manufacturers can have completely different names for their version of the same damn part. (i.e. Cable reel = clockspring.)

This is why we have to point out exactly what we want when ordering parts.
Me calling an item one thing doesn't necessarily mean the other person will think the same thing I am. Picture = 1000 words and all that.



--------------
If I call a car part a "lock", what picture do YOU have in your head? Wrong, that's not what the parts catalog says.
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Seal #20 is what I'd think that meant...until someone clarified exactly what they mean.

 
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Thanks ezone. From your advice on a different thread, I think I'll replace #4, 18, 19 and 20. For the cam or crank seals, do I want to use any type of sealant? When I did them the first time, the tutorial I read had me simply put them on dry, no sealant. Thanks a million.

Edit: looks like the service manual recommends grease on the outer lip of the oil pump seal.

 
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Ok, so I took off the valve cover and upper timing belt cover again just to inspect one last time. There's an oil leak coming from the cam seal. When I installed it, I inserted it flush with the engine, just as you described. My question... is there any feasible way to seat this thing further or replace it without having to replicate the timing belt replacement sequence?

 
Rep Power: 518

I guess that would depend on how much work you wanna do.

If possible or feasible, I might consider removing the first cam journal cap to expose the upper half of the seal-- and reposition the seal by hand, then reseal (RTV) and reinstall the cap to the head.

BUT Without actually seeing it myself (I can't see if lifting the rocker shafts would be involved for this), IDK if that would easier or harder than taking the cam gear off of the camshaft.



On installing shaft seals, I usually lube the inner diameter lips where the moving parts will be (if not already pre-greased), and leave the outer circumference dry.

 
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So if I understand correctly, you're saying I can take off that crescent shaped bracket that is held down by two bolts to expose the cam seal, attempt to position the seal a little deeper in, and use some sealant (I have RTV black if that's ok) to cover a portion of the outside of the seal?

 
Rep Power: 518

The sealant goes between the 2 flat aluminum surfaces to keep oil from seeping between them to the outside.

Something like this pic I found, apply a very thin film of sealant to the shaded (lined) areas

 
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Looks like fixing the cam seal took care of the leak. This is what the seal looked like as it was seated on the cam:

It actually wore a very small groove in the cam from that spring... I can barely feel it when I rub my finger on the cam but it's there. I hope that doesn't compromise anything. For now I'll keep a close eye on potential leakage. ezone, thank you very much for your help. You helped save this broke *** college student some serious dough!

 
Rep Power: 518

You're welcome.