BlueTroll

iTrader: (2)

so the "ice and water guard" adheres to the metal and the jute goes on the other side of the "ice and water guard"??

Ocelaris

Yes, the "Ice and Water Guard" is just a sticky film... think of it as giant tape. It's a good idea to clean off the surfaces if there is any oil or dirt on the metal first, blast of windex works well...

The Jute is just a big piece of cheap thick clothe/blanket it doesn't stick by it's self, but you can use the 3M adhesive spray, I just kinda layed it up there and smooshed the door panel back on (door panel, interior trim, carpet etc...).

But you don't want the jute getting wet, because it will mold (I think?) you want to use the the ice and water guard to seal out air from the outer panels, and place the jute on the side closest to the interior. What works well for heating insulation works well for sound absorption also... ie sealing the outside out keeps the air from transmitting noise, then it has to go throught the jute to come in the car.

This weekend I got some sheets of compressed fiberglass panels aka Fiberglass duct board, put some clothe over that, and have it around the apartment to stop noise from computers, vents, birds (windows) etc... works phenomenol... for those interested it was like 25$ for a 10'long by 2' wide by 1.5" thick, the joann frabric people thought I was nuts buying 12 yards of cheap black fabric...

duyaknow

iTrader: (9)

Nice info and glad I can just go to Home Depot to buy the stuff. I was going to go crazy on fatmat in the future, but things change...haha.

doubledeuce2k2

iTrader: (20)

fatmat's still not a bad idea, and it's fairly cheap too. so go crazy

Ocelaris

I don't wanna be a post B1tch on this topic or anything... but read a few of the longer posts I've made to talk about the different asphault sheetings... fatmaat isn't bad pricewise compared to say Dynamat... but compared to the industrial products with the same properties... it's a ripoff...

Grace Ice and water Guard
108 sq. ft = 66$ (for me a while back w/tax) picked up
Roll Length 11.0 m (36 ft)
Roll Width 914 mm (36 in.)
Roll Size 10.4 m2 (108 ft2)
Roll Weight 15.3 kg (33.6 lbs)
Thickness, Membrane 1.02 mm (40 mil)

Fatmat
100 sq. ft = 100$ plus shipping, with shipping = $129.98
Shipping Weight 31 Pounds
Installation Weight 23 Pounds
Thickness 45 Mil

That's $0.61 a square foot for the 40mil grace ice and water guard
That's $1.29 a square foot for the 45mil Fatmat

Difference? 5mil but that 5mil might be because Fatmat has an aluminum backing... Grace ice and water guard has a plastic one... Which one would you rather have? If somebody wants to do the calculations to compensate for the 5mil difference, be my guest, but 5mil is not 5mm 5 mil is like a piece of paper... and the grace ice and water guard weighs more anyways, and that's what you're trying to achieve, weight on the doors... in addition to also pinning plastic pieces down and joining undamped metal parts.


Data taken from:
http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/...=a&id=74&did=8
http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/.../GIWS-060J.pdf

and

http://www.fatmat.com/fatpaks/100.htm

Oce Out

Ocelaris

Check out the Adhesion... 3 pounds per square inch on plywood. If the surface is dry, free of dirt and oils, should stick more than enough and not come off ever... if you stick it together, it ain't never coming apart.

PRODUCT DATA
Property Value Test Method
Color Gray-Black
Thickness, Membrane 1.02 mm (40 mil) ASTM D3767 Method A
Tensile Strength, Membrane 1720 kN/m2 (250 psi) ASTM D412 (Die C Modified)
Elongation, Membrane 250% ASTM D412 (Die C Modified)
Low Temperature Flexibility Unaffected @ -29°C (-20°F) ASTM D1970
Adhesion to Plywood 525 N/m (3.0 lbs/in. width) ASTM D903
Permeance (max) 2.9 ng/m2s Pa (0.05 Perms) ASTM E96
Material Weight Installed (max) 1.3 kg/m2 (0.3 lb/ft2) ASTM D461

doubledeuce2k2

iTrader: (20)

yeah i'm trying to achieve weight on the doors but i also like the fact that sound will reflect better off of the aluminum. i'll pay for it. i know there are generic products with aluminum backing but i'm too lazy to find them

Ocelaris

You're not going to get any sound reflection off that aluminum that you wouldn't already be getting off of your STEEL DOORS!

Here are some sound absorption coefficients for various materials... And the attached picture the two highlighted areas are plain and Aluminum backed fiberglass insulation... I've taken the difference of the absorption and the aluminum backing only makes a difference in the 250hz region... But the fact that you already have 2 door panels makes it moot... Not to mention the whole idea is to ABSORB sound, not reflect it... the only reason they have the aluminum on it, is because it withstands higher temperatures than plastic. In the original purpose of these materials they were meant to seal heat inside boilers, so aluminum was the product of choice instead of plastic. But when they applied this material to roofs and automotive purposes it became plastic because it makes a better water/heat/cold/temperature barrier than aluminum.

The 70X i.e 703, 705, 701 compressed fiberglass sheets are for home acoustical treatments, boiler liners, and duct lining (though honestly you don't really want fiberglass in a vent)... anyways, they have plain (no backing), plastic, and Aluminum backed. The only difference between the two highlighted ones, is the aluminum backing. You can see that at frequencies below 250hz (baritone singer) the aluminum will block some frequencies, but above 250hz it will substantially increase the noise reflected. these numbers are all percentages... so the difference (aluminum sheet) at 2000hz is -.39% meaning it's going to make almost 40% more noise than without it... The human ear is most "sensitive to the 800-2000hz range because that is the region where the human voice is (hence good reason to be more sensitive to it). So I reccomend the non-aluminum backed asphault sheeting.

________125_____250_____500_____1000____2000____40 00____NRC
Plain____0.11____0.28_____0.68_____0.9_____0.93___ _ 0.96____0.7
Aluminum_0.17____0.71____0.59_____0.68_____0.54___ __0.3____0.65
__________________________________________________ _____________
Differnce_0.06___0.43____-0.09____-0.22___-0.39___-0.66___-0.05


http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm

If you really want that aluminum backing... do this. Get 2 bottles of the 3m Super adhesive (10$x2=20$) and a big roll of aluminum foil (5$) then glue it ontop of the Ice and Water guard, and you'll still be 40$ ahead which you can buy enough jute (which I highly reccomend for it's higher frequency absorption and cheapness) to soundproof your entire car.

BlueTroll

iTrader: (2)

DIY please!

doubledeuce2k2

iTrader: (20)

that attachment you listed isn't worth a damn to me because i don't have 1 inch thick insulation or whatever the hell that stuff is, i'm comparing products not even tested there. putting foil on there would look like complete crap, theres no way in hell you will get it on there nice. if you put this stuff on your doors to reduce road noise, you're wasting your time anyways. i put it on to reduce resonance and hopefully gain a little more speaker noise.

i like my music loud. so i want to maximize the reflection of sound if possible. steel does do a good job, but putting on the dampener is going to take some volume away from me with less reflection. like when you pad a practice room, you don't see aluminum on the padding because they want less noise. that what it looks like the stuff you posted is supposed to do. if the material underneath made all the difference, why the hell would you use it on a boiler like you claim that product is used for? it's steel, so improving the sound reflection is hopeless!

use whatever you want, but i still feel that fatmat and all those others are a worthwhile choice. the other stuff will lower resonance, but so would covering it with shrink wrap or doing any of a number of ghetto rigging things to stick stuff onto it.

b20vtec.com

you can get eDead for cheap right now, i have a coupon if anyone is intersted! www.edesignaudio.com

Ocelaris

The point was to compare two identical products, used for sound absorption, one with the aluminum backing, one without. Subtract the two from each other and you get the equivalent of the aluminum reflections similar to what we are looking at.

If you want your music loud, buy better amps and speakers. Sound reflections are not the way to get it louder.

The important part is to make two sealed sections, one behind the speaker, one in front of it. That way you don't get sound waves cancelling each other out. The same could be said of poorly mounted speakers, with air escaping between the speaker mount.

Think of high end speakers... do they have sheet metal behind them? no, they have very heavy wood (sometimes lead lined) and some sort of foam or fabric.

The studio environment you speak of has lots of acoustical foam... The purpose being to disrupt waves from bouncing around the room, and secondly to absorb the noise.

In perfect sound testing environment, you would try to minimize the room and rely almost soley on the speaker. Our Cars are not a perfect sound environment, we have wayyyy too much glass, plastic etc.. (hard surfaces) that give too much reflections as is. A good sounding car will attempt to minimize those reflections.

And "reflections" is not what asphault sheeting is meant to stop. It does nothing for reflections. You need a soft surface like carpet padding or acoustical fiberglass sheeting (do some research, that's what the best theatres use) to stop reflections. reflections are only for higher end frequencies.

Anything that weighs will reduce resonance. Doesn't matter if it's poop or asphault sheeting. Feel free to waste your money on heavy crap.

I was joking about putting aluminum foil on there... maybe YOU didn't get the joke. The plastic door panel already reflects most of the noise from INSIDE the car... the point is that aluminum does squat for resonance. The Jute blocks outside noise. Lower you Ambient noise level 3db and it's the equivalent of making your speakers 3db louder. You want to block outside noise and only let your speakers play out of the hole they're supposed to.

Ocelaris

The whole point of my posts is to show:

edead, fatmat, dynamt original, grace and water guard are all the exact same stuff. The only purpose they serve is if you have alot of bass and want to stop the sheet metal from vibrating. It also will stop plastic pieces if you use this to tie them down with.

Any sort of mass dampening (i.e. above) will not stop any road noise. You need an acoustical absorbing material. Jute will do wonders.

You can spend 100$ on dampening and absorbtion (66$ for 109 sq. ft of Grace Ice and water Guard, and 44$ on Jute) and get 300 times quiter ride and better sounding acoustics than someone who pays 300$ for "show" asphault.

Anyone who ever wants to meet and see/hear my setup, I'm more than happy to show/share. Bring your favorite CD, and see if my "gheto" rigged setup sounds better than other people who spend 1000$ on bling bling show useless audio hype.

82801BA

I still don't know what jute is....Those ppl in Home Depot doesn't know what I was talking about when I was saying JUTE.....Any picture that will show it?

Ocelaris

Yeah, I have some pics I've been meaning to upload. #9 and #10 are for you 820801BA. The rest should give a pretty good idea about howto install everything. They're labeled #01 through #14 and descriptively as well... I probably can get some more pics of it, but maybe you've seen it now and get an idea, it's kinda like those cheap army blankets that are grey and made out of lots of different weaves/threads...

doubledeuce2k2

iTrader: (20)

where did i say aluminum was for resonance? wtf? don't put words in my mouth. you are filling your posts with junk hoping to houdini some kind of conclusion. point:

"The whole point of my posts is to show: edead, fatmat, dynamt original, grace and water guard are all the exact same stuff. The only purpose they serve is if you have alot of bass and want to stop the sheet metal from vibrating. It also will stop plastic pieces if you use this to tie them down with."

but before...

"The point was to compare two identical products, used for sound absorption, one with the aluminum backing, one without. Subtract the two from each other and you get the equivalent of the aluminum reflections similar to what we are looking at"

MAKE UP YOUR MIND! i can't believe anything i read when i can't figure out what you are saying. and while i take information from a seller with sceptism, i'm leaving this thread with a quote from the fatmat website that will answer anything you could come up with:

"Aluminum Layer-This is a 3 mil aluminum constraining layer fused to the top of the rubberized compound. Using this layer allows our product to become thinner, lighter yet 4X's more effective than other deadeners on the market. When you see messages or hear people say that all deadeners are the same, it's safe to say that you should be looking elsewhere for future advice."

Ocelaris

Start with the fact that "the whole point" phrase was referring to everyone who might be listening at home with questions as to the suitability of different sound dampening sheets...

The Second is to deal with your little aluminum backing tirade.

Honestly, I don't care what you use, the materials are pretty much the same, and I'm not sure what you're arguing about. If you go look at the data I provided, they'll show that the aluminum foil does provide some reflection. That was your point no?

I was simply saying you don't want those reflections.

If you don't understand it, why don't you start from the beginning of the thread and read my other posts, it might make a little more sense instead of chopping this stuff out of perspective.

Honestly, I've gotten in many fights with people about this. And you want to know what they all have in common? They already dropped alot of $$ on their "special" material and now have to justify to themselves why they did the right thing. Well, I'll tell you what, I've made the wrong decision many times, but my ego doesn't get in the way and try and disprove the truth... I feel stupid yes, but next time, I would take what I know and do things the right way.

So go get some empirical evidence about the aluminum layer if you don't understand mine. The fatmat quote is stupid, "thinner, lighter, yet 4x more effective"... you know what? what is the goal of the asphault sheeting??? WEIGHT. There is no other purpose to the layer than weight. Honestly, go check out some acoustics books or somthing.

I worked for a company for 4 years doing very high end home theatres. Two of the guys used to work in a car audio shop, one of them used to manage it. The manager had put quite a few cars through IASCA SQ competitions. I've posted pics of what I've done and offered to show anyone who wants to see it... You haven't brought anything meaningful to the conversation than your personal opinions which are obviously biased against logical reasoning and evidence.

I'm personally going to ask a mod to step in and end your posts, you're making an A$$ out of yourself.

doubledeuce2k2

iTrader: (20)

you're right, i hate logic, kill kittens, and am a member of a saddam hussein fan club. i'm not flaming here, don't threaten me.

i can have my opinion!!! why should i have to agree with you? do you have any "empirical data" from a 7th gen? no. have i heard your car, my car, both with the same equipment and install, with my own ears? no. this is a FORUM. you have had your say, i have had mine. i did not want to make this a personal thing, i feel you have tried to make it that way. and i have not spent gobs of money on deadener. i used to run a SRI on a D17, not afraid to admit that was a waste of money. this is getting political, just because i don't leap onto the latest bandwagon.

i never pick a side til i've heard both sides of the arguement. now they are here. so are we cool? if there is one rule i've found, it's that no one way is always best. can you agree with me maybe a little here? i'm not saying you're wrong.

this said, no matter what you want to do, i personally would be careful with a real jute layer in the doors. our doors honestly are crap for waterproof factor. and if i remember right, jute is that almost hemp-like stuff. if there is a synthetic alternative that would not rot and/or smell, that would be something to consider.

Ocelaris

I'm just putting up evidence for people to make their decision about.

If you had read ANY of my posts before about using jute... people asked about the mold, and I had already said, only use the jute if you've sealed up your doors with asphault sheeting (that is what it's meant for, a water and ice guard, literally).

The door has an inner shell and an outer shell. You can see the holes that go through the door. You seal all those holes with the asphault sheeting, and then the inner part (the part where the plastic door piece fits on) is water proof. There are still drains in the outter door shell where water leaks through. So as long as you put the jute basically on the backside of the plastic door panel, you're fine. The Jute is mainly synthetic materials from what I recall anyways, lots of cheap nylon threads. I have taken my door off many months after the first install, and the jute was completely dry, no mold or anything.

BlueTroll

iTrader: (2)

so the water and ice goes on the outer AND inner metal parts of the doors??

in your pictures all u did was cover up holes?? i thought u put it everywhere to weigh the metal down?

Ocelaris

Those pictures are not a "final install" they're all someway throughout the install...

Covering up the holes is an important part of sealing the external noises out. Air transmits noise, and especially in the doors, it makes a rear chamber for the speakers so air doesn't flow between the inner and outer chambers (skins per se)...

You basically add it on until you're satisfied that it's heavy enough not to resonante... I wrapped the door skins with my knuckles and you can hear the frequency that it makes go down as you add more asphault sheeting. I put some on the exterior panels (through the holes) and then covered the holes up and did a bunch on the door.

Do the knuckle rap (wrap?) test... if it makes a nice solid noise instead of a twangy noise... you're good to go. Imagine a saw, the old school ones you used to cut wood with... if you can imagine that sound, and adding weight to it, until it's resonating frequency is below a certain point, you have the idea of what you're trying to accomplish.

jameStype

Ocelaris - you are a money saver man. i have an 04 coupe ex i just picked up and don't care for the road noise when i get on the freeway. 100.00 for materials including the jute for the flooring for a quiet ride is awesome! screw dynocrap. i rather by the same material with no name on it because in the end...you get the same result and keep your cash. awesome DIY man. this will be a project in the near future for me and has given me a direction. thanks much Ocelaris

jameStype

i haven't read through this entire thread, but would you say its as quiet as the acura tsx interior or a standard luxury interior? i'm sure it will be hella of an improvement of what i'm hearing now.

Ocelaris

I wouldn't say it's as quiet as any luxury car necessarily, for the amount of work we do... i.e. luxury cars have the car stripped, including the dash out and seats, trunks... they can make air seals much better than our cars have. Also simply their materials weight more, thicker glass, thicker sheet metal etc...

Luxury cars as we know tend to be heavy and make up for it in bigger engines... our cars are more efficient, less power, lighter car... I don't want anybody to get their hopes up that they're going to instantly have a luxury quiet car, but you can probably cut the sound level inside the car by half. A little bit of work will make alot of difference.

Everyday I get into my car and appreciate less noise... took me 3 days of full work, but I did alot of things at the same time. Worth every penny IMO. I even convinced my wife to do the same after she heard the difference...


If you just did the doors and floor/rear seats you'd probably get alot of benefit. taking the headliner, rear quarter panels, and dash apart (in order of difficulty) will make improvements, but in diminishing quantity.

My friend's mercedes S500 has like 1/4" thick glass... (silent almost)

It's alot of work, but if you're already set yourself on sound dampening (dynamat etc...) why not throw some jute in there, make yourself a good seal with the asphault sheeting (i.e inner door skin and outter door skin) and then put some jute inbetween the panel and yourself...

I what I am trying to stress is the whole upper frequency part of noise reduction. Sure you could add 2" worth of asphault sheeting, but at that weight cost, you could have a sheet of jute or fiberglass which weighs almost nothing comparatively.

jameStype

well i'm still happy to find this thread. a noticeable improvement in the interior cabin is thumbs up in my book even if isn't to the stats of the luxury standards you mentioned.

let us know when and if you do your firewall area. i'd like to see pics when you tackle that gorilla.

duyaknow

iTrader: (9)

When I strolling around in Home Depot, I saw the carpet padding material. It seems to be constructed from a mix of foam and fibers. You guys said you need fibrous material, so I didn't think that would be the best solutioin.

Why not use the fiberglass insulation that is used in house walls? I know it can be itchy and bad for your lungs, but once you put the panels back on, it should be no problem right?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

I wouldn't do that. The foam is fine and very lightweight. Better than nothing.

duyaknow

iTrader: (9)

But is it worth it? Will it even help with the road noise?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

Well it won't help that much, but I'm sure you'll notice something. Foam is very good at stopping higher frequency noise. Best when combined with a vibration damper like dynamat.

PopcornPlaya

iTrader: (6)

I used carpet padding in my floors, after a layer of FatMat, I added a layer of 1/2" high density carpet padding on top of in, under the carpet. It, coupled with the FatMat made a noticable difference.