diskreet

iTrader: (1)

Ok I am going to do this really soon. Using my own switch and relay. Got everything ready, just need to make sure this is correct:


I am good with electronics thanks to EE classes, but I am not sure on the wire colors. Please someone confirm that the wire harness at the steering column matches with the colors of the wires above.
also if there is a better way to wire this, please share.

Last question:
When you are STARTING the car, does this turn off the "accessory" wire like for the rest of the car? If that is true, when I am pushing the button the light will be off. I would prefer it this way actually but I just am wondering



When I do it I will try to remember to take pics and I will write the first proper DIY on it that isnt confusing or overcomplicated for no reason

lewal

iTrader: (9)

Sorry, I don't know... the "read before you flame" caught my eye, as I thought you were gonna state a reason. =)

Good Luck

diskreet

iTrader: (1)

grenloch101056

iTrader: (11)

since your tapping into the starter wire and not controlling the starter wire with the key switch, the accessory wires will not drop out. if you really wanted to you could put a third relay to cut the light on the starter switch

diskreet

iTrader: (1)

I will only tap onto the existing wires so I can start with or without the button.

So you are saying that the button will stay lit when I am starting? Thats cool.

What would be the easiest way to get the led to turn off when the car is finally on? is there an 'on' only wire anywhere that gets voltage only when the car is turned on?

grenloch101056

iTrader: (11)

when you say any wire that gets voltage only when the car is turned on, i guess you mean when the engine is running? that would require a few relays and some inginuity or a basic circuit being built. Im not that current with latching relays so i would have to look up how to do it.

basically you would take the tach wire and use that energize the coil which would break the circuit feeding the led

diskreet

iTrader: (1)

yeah I was thinking tach too. Cause it the only thing that is only on with the car being on. No lights in the car or anything.
Easiest solution with parts I have would be an op amp hooked up to the tach wire to get it to amplify to 12 volts at 600rpm, with the amp only supplied with 12 volts. Only problem is that it will be fully clipped whenever the car is on and this will cut the life down on the amp.

I could always find a relay that switches at much lower voltage, but I am not sure on the voltage range of the tach and if it would be enough.

WhiteRabbit

(edit: fire = coil, input + output = switch poles)

how to get the light to shut off?

Relay one: start with "key sense" use a relay to only provide power to the circuit when the key is in the ignition. That way, when the car is off, and the key is out, the light never turns on. the 12 volt input for this relay will be ACC1. this means for this relay to fire, you need the key inserted AND to be in ACC1 position.

relay number two. This one is activated to fire by ACC1 and will be wired to latch to itself. Constant +12V is provided by the output of Relay 1.

Relay number three: This one is fired by ACC2, and its output actually drives the LED. its input is from relay #2 output. its ONLY purpose is to prevent the LED from lighting while he key is in ACC1 position.

your bulb is now lit, powered by the latching relay from ACC1. this will stay on, activating relay #3 and lighting the LED permanently.

now you hit the starter button. power is disrupted from ACC1, the latch fails, and the light turns off. Relay #3 remains active, but there is no input power to feed it.

when you shut the car off, turning the key past ACC1 reactivates the latching relay, but he light stays off because it needs to be in position 2 to get power TO the LED

and the relay will not stay latched because its "stay on" power comes from the key sense wire, which drops out when you pull the key out.

remove any relay, the the light will either come on at an inappropriate time, or stay on at an inappropriate time.

I wanted the light to ONLY come on in ACC2 position (and never acc1!), never be on with the car off or key out, and turn off with engine starting. when driving comes to a close, I wanted the light not to come on at all.

did that make any sense?













hold on, I cant think about this at the moment, and ACC1 cant be the input for relay #1. thats holding me up.

but the theory is sound:

Relay #1 ensures the entire circuit fails with the key out.

Relay #2 provides the means for the light to turn on and stay on when inserted, though doesnt directly do it.

Relay #3 actually turns the LED on.

starting the car disrupts the latch on relay #2, shuting the light off even though relays #1 and #3 are activated.

shutting the car off requires the loss of relay #3 which directly affects the light, so it never turns back on till relay 3 is "reconnected"

and no matter what happens when the car is shut off an the key removed, all power is dropped out when the key is pulled, so no relay remains active if you leave town for several weeks.

thats the idea, anyways. only ACC1 in main power seems to not lead to this end.

lemme think about this over Easter.

diskreet

iTrader: (1)

that would work, but I don't have enough money for all the parts right now. Thats a great idea though. Thanks.
[I have like $300 to my name, and all of it is going into savings] so unless I get some money on my b-day (tomorrow) I won't be able to do it.

Also here is a big problem I see with that circuit. When you turn the key to 'start' Acc1 is disrupted. But when in the 'on' position, using a button to start, will Acc1 really be disrupted?

One last thing is that even If I do +12V from the batter to the single relay, and can try to turn the car on w/o the key in, the ECU won't start the engine without the key in.

WhiteRabbit

yes, ACC1 dropping back in is the problem I ran in to.

as it is, its not that expensive, only four relays, and only one has to be an expensive $2 bosch. lit switch....

the starter bypass is a touch expensive (plus add an extra key in there, too), but its moot. in your original circuit, you used ACC2 to toggle the starter relay. so you require the key in the ignition no matter what.

if you wanted starter actuation with the key out too, that gets even more expensive.

if you planned to do it that way, your best bet is a remote starter ($60) that you add a lit pushbutton to.

I just assumed you werent pushstarting your car without the key in.






you could always do what my buddy did in his early 80's beater POS VW rabbit when his ignition switch broke. you can just have three switches to do the whole thing. acc1 switch, acc2 switch, and ignition

diskreet

iTrader: (1)

haha well my bday party was today. I am sure I can afford some more relays. Now its a matter of getting the motivation to take it one more step.

What I am going to do is just do like I have originally planned and if it doesnt work then I will change things up a bit.


WhiteRabbit, thanks for the replies and anything else you want to add please do.

WhiteRabbit

diskreet, is there ANYTHING that triggers ANY voltage when you put the key in your ignition to turn the car on that drops out at any time?

the only things I can think of are key sense, acc1, acc2, and ignition, nothing seems to drop out.

only other thing I can think of during the "car start" sequence is the door opening and closing, and that doesnt work for what I want.

can you think of any other factor?

much MUCH easier:

main power goes through a relay tied to ACC2. I want the circuit DEAD with the key out of the "car running" position. period.

power goes out of relay #1 into relay #2. normally open isnt used, and normally CLOSED is the output. this relay is wired to latch, triggered by ignition. That is to say, the circuit OPENS when you hit ignition, and stays open till you lose acc2.

power off relay 2 lights the switch bulb.


now, if the key is in ANY position BUT ACC2, the whole circuit fails, and is powered down (relay 1). Once you hit ACC2, all three relays align and power lights the switch, indicating that push button start is actuated. Hit the button to activate ignition, and the pulse latches relay #2, opening the circuit, and un-lighting the switch. It latched, and will stay off until the latch loses power (powered by ACC2 via relay #1).

so when you turn off the motor by turning the key to acc1, the whole circuit is reset, and when you turn the key back to ACC2, the switch lights again, indicating you are all set to pushstart the car.

and it will cost you two relays with enough current capacity to light a bulb. nowhere near bosch relays. (by the way, ive tried hitting ignition and ACC2 with enough current to start the car, and bosche work just fine in that department.)

so BAM! parts list is:

one lit switch.
One bosch relay
two SPDT relays good enough to keep a light lit.

wire.

cheap!

diskreet

iTrader: (1)

thanks for the new idea rabbit. I am looking around and I cannot find a 'key sense' anywhere for our cars.

Ok so here is the supposed set of wires down there for a 2001:
12V (white) + ignition harness
STARTER (black/white) + ignition harness
IGNITION (black/yellow) + ignition harness
ACCESSORY (black/red) + ignition harness
SECOND ACCESSORY (white/red) + ignition harness

What does the 'ignition' wire do?

grenloch101056

iTrader: (11)

keysense is a small guage wire in the ignition harness. Its a negative signal when a key is in the cylinder. the igntion wires will stay engergized when the key is on the ign position as well as during crank and opposed to the acc wire which will drop out during crank.

diskreet

iTrader: (1)

thanks. i finished it today. going to write a diy some time this week

v8eaterokv6

iTrader: (3)

so hows it work

diskreet

iTrader: (1)

perfectly. Put a big smile on my face. Was my b-day presant to me. I was happier doing the mod than with the end result (I just wanted to do something) but it came out really nice.

v8eaterokv6

iTrader: (3)

cool i have the s2000 button in my car. i dont use it very much but its nice looking adds a little race touch

WhiteRabbit

diskreet, tell me about the functionality of yoru button. dont tell me the wiring (I'll read the DIY) but tell me what happens when you get in the car. tell me whern the button works, when it doesnt, when the light lights up. Thats what makes my day.

I'm also curious if you utilized my idea

diskreet

iTrader: (1)

ok, when the key is out of the ignition the button is not lit and when you push it, it does nothing.
When the key is in the ignition but not turned, same thing.
When on Accessory the key is lit and is able to try to start the car but the engine won't turn on cause its not on the 'on' position.
When the key is at the 'on' position the button is lit turns the car on.
When the key is used to start the car the button's light turns off and the car starts like normal.

When the car is turned on the button is still lit and you really shouldn't push it or its going to burn out the starter

I also didn't utilize any of your ideas... but that doesnt mean I can't do them later on. I am thinking about it.

WhiteRabbit

I didnt even think about what happens when you hit the button a second time.

I assume you used a timer relay so you only have to tap the starter button, and the engine fully turns over? I dont see how itll burn out the starter, otherwise...

anyways, it doesnt matter. To prevent problems with that, read my post about utilizing a latch to turn the light OFF. you do the exact same thing, except using a low current relay on your ignition switch line.

now when the engine cranks, your power to the ignition pushbutton fails, and the pushbutton start will always fail only as long as the engine is running.

diskreet

iTrader: (1)

that wouldnt work cause if it starts fast you ruin the starter. If its really cold out (like it always is here in PA) and takes longer, it won't turn on.

And I can't do anything for a bit cause I dont have the time right now!
Thanks for the help though, and I may get on doing this more later

WhiteRabbit

The next question becomes, how does a remote start work? where is the feedback to tell the remote start to kill power to ignition?

diskreet

iTrader: (1)

i dont have a remote starter and never will... so not my problem haha

WhiteRabbit

checked a remote start manual.

there can be two settings (at least on this starter): RPM sense and timer.

the timer is adjustable, and functions precisely like I have described. I've also tried it in the past with great success.

the RPM sense has to do with sensing a 1-6 Vrms signal from the tach sense wire. I dont know how it works.

grenloch101056

iTrader: (11)

[QUOTE=WhiteRabbit]checked a remote start manual.

there can be two settings (at least on this starter): RPM sense and timer.

the timer is adjustable, and functions precisely like I have described. I've also tried it in the past with great success.

the RPM sense has to do with sensing a 1-6 Vrms signal from the tach sense wire. I dont know how it works


with DEI starters you have two options, voltage sense and tach. With voltage sense it will engage the starter wire until the cars voltage rises above 14 volts.

with tach sense, the car will engage the starter until it sees a present amount of AC voltage on the tach wire. in order to program this function you have to start the car and then go to the tach setting in programming mode so the brain will know at what voltage the tach wire will read at idle