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interesting, still doesnt explain why everyone else wants them.......

unless they are like teh guy on indybbs, who wanted to get HID and wanted to know if he needed to upgrade his alternator [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]

 
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Hmm...right now I'm running two Kicker Solo-Baric L7 12's wired up for a 1-ohm load on a JBL BP-1200.1, and I do have some dimming even with my 105-amp alt that's on my Sunbird. I don't think it'll be much of a prob when I get my Civic, though, because this amp is a class D and, as of now, I'm only running a .5 farad cap and 8-guage wiring. When I get my Civic, I'm going to run 4-guage wire (I only had 8 because my old amp didn't need anything bigger), and I'm also going to buy a 1-farad cap and wire it in parallel with my current cap for 1.5 farads. I think that should help. By the way, the .5 farad cap is reccomended for systems up to 500w, and the 1-farad is reccomended for systems up to 1000w...so I'm assuming that by wiring the two in parallel, they should be suitable for systems up to 1500w, right? Since my amp is putting out 1200wRMS, I think I should be just fine.

 
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actually, capacitors put even more of a strain on your alternator, which is why they are a big no-no for SPL competition, they rob too much power (unless you got a 50 farad cap)

id just take it out.

i got a 1200.1 @ 600 watts right now, i get minimal dimming, and it doesnt really bother me too much *shrug*

seems to be an expensive fix to a nonexistant problem is all. SQcivic got a good reason tho [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG]

and 1200.1 are known to do well over 1400 [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG]

 
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Neon... Caps do not help your Charging/electrical system in any way...I've said this many times.. All they do is help controll dimming by stabilizing Voltage....your Charging system still uses as much amperage when U have a cap..and will still drain out just as fast as if you didn't.. with caps.. you won't notice much dimming..but the longer you keep your system the dimmer and dimmer your lights will go.. and you won;t notice this because there's no sudden dimming with bass hits.. it's a slow gradual process.. then your voltage will drop too low.. hopefully your amps will shut down before your ECU Fries...

Caps as a point do not help SPL no.. thay do help SQ though by helping to keep voltage stable for unregulated amps..(same amp output for the length of the bass hit.)

your JBL at 1 ohm will draw over 100amps of current at full power.. add to that your A/C Lights, Fan, Ignition, ECU, Amp for your mids..that's about double what your alternator can put out..

I did a post on here awhile back..

Our cars can handle safely 600Wrms of class D power and 300Wrms of class a/b Power....or 800Wrms of class D power and 200Wrms of class a/b Power..that with most accesories off...and system cranked..

With that amp you'll need a H/O alternator..or keep the volume turned down a bit..

 
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Hmm...they actually put a strain on your electrical system? Are you sure? I'm not trying to flame you or anything...I really am curious. It's just that I'm running S12L7s wired for a 1-ohm load, so the amp is putting out 1200wRMS. I mean, it's a class D amp, but it's still going to need a lot of juice...which can cause dimming. I thought capacitors don't draw any power unless they're discharged. They are supposed to work as a buffer. You could almost compare a capacitor to a CD player with anti-shock. If you have anti-shock, it's obviously a buffer to keep you from hearing your CD "skip" when the laser mistracks. If you have a CD player without antishock, you are going to hear every little skip...and it will get annoying, much like the dimming of headlights. Now, if you have anti-shock, your CD player can skip, but the buffer will keep you from hearing the skips, by storing up sound to use in the case of a mistrack. Now a capacitor should work the same way. Without one, your amp draws current directly from your electrical system, causing the power draw to be visible through your car's lights. Now, with the cap, it is supposed to act like a buffer, storing energy for the amp much the same way that the anti-shock stores sound. With a cap, it should store energy for the amp to use when it needs a large amount of energy at one time. It should allow your amp to draw the energy it needs without affecting the rest of the electrical system, and should quietly recharge itself in the background during the quieter bass notes...the same way anti-shock refills itself after a mistrack...and unless you are staring at the anti-shock meter, you would never even know it had skipped and refilled its buffer. I may be wrong about all of this, but it sounds very logical to me. [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]

 
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Oh, I never said it would help the electrical system in any way. I meant that it would help my dimming...I was trying to say that the reason I thought the dimming was as bad as it is on my car is because my power cables are too small, and my cap isn't big enough for my amp. Trust me, I know that it won't help the electrical system. As for needing a bigger alt...that sucks...I don't really want to drop that kind of cash on an alternator. Hmm...I wish I could get the stock one rebuilt. [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/IMG]

 
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Neon the stock alt can be rebuilt to 90 amps no problem.. Our Honda's use 70 amp Mitsubishi alternators also found on Hyundai's Mitsubishi's and Chrysler engine's.. My Old Hyundai Sonata alt is sitting next to my civic alt.. except for dirt and some pitting they identical..if you can find a 90 amp alternator for a Hyundai Sonata, Hyundai Elantra, Mistu Eclipse, Eagle Talon, all 94-up you're set

 
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<< your JBL at 1 ohm will draw over 100amps of current at full power.. add to that your A/C Lights, Fan, Ignition, ECU, Amp for your mids..that's about double what your alternator can put out..

I did a post on here awhile back..

Our cars can handle safely 600Wrms of class D power and 300Wrms of class a/b Power....or 800Wrms of class D power and 200Wrms of class a/b Power..that with most accesories off...and system cranked..

With that amp you'll need a H/O alternator..or keep the volume turned down a bit.. >>



furst of all, the JBL will never be at full power, unless you are playing tones. the only reason you are playing tones is to SPL compete, at which you will ALWAYS be running off the battery. playing music, the draw never reaches its peak, never, because sometimes its playing loud, sometimes soft, and sometimes not at all.

and its that reason I refuse to believe you next statement, that or alternators can only handle the amount of power you say it can. It may work out mathematically, but in the real world, neon has 1200 watts of class D draw plus his stage amp, plus whatever else he has running. And if here were lying (why would he lie?) I myself have 600 watts of class D draw, coupled with 500 watts of class AB draw. and before that it was 700 watts total a/b draw. my electrical system is fine. I'll bet that my alt will die sooner than a stock civis, but thats like saying that an engien with I/H/E will die sooner than a stck civic. I simply refuse to believe that there is such a small limits to what our alternators can handle, especially when there are TONS of systems out there (many in cars with smaller than 70 amp alt) that are just fine with the massive current draw.

and if you are talking about max draw of teh amps, I also refuse to believe that you can in some way draw FULL power from BOTH the class A/b and teh class D amps at once. what, you are going to play white or pink noise at full blast for extended periods of time? i dont believe it.

 
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Rabbit..you're gonna make me post it again aren't you lol..I'll post the fast version..

Class D amps run at about 80% Efficiency at 1/3 power.. only 50% efficiency at rated power... Class A/B Amps run about 50% efficient on average..

Figuring you have the amps driving at 3/4 Volume..
That makes your 1200 Watt class D amp running about 800Watts or so... at say 70% Efficiency

800watts at 70% effiency is 1142 Watts...at 13.8 volts(realistically) 82 amps of current

The current draw is not constant as Music is Dynamic.. so for Rap and Hip hop figure only about 45% of that draw is constant (33% for msot other music programming) so 37 amps draw (24 with most other music)

No figure 50Wrms x4 Class A/B Amp at 50 % Efficiency. 3/4 volume 150Wrms.. 50% Efficiency 300 watt draw or 21 amp draw.. given the 33% Musical dynamics.. that's 7 amps..

Okay so that's 44 amp draw..from a 70amp alternator..not so bad... Turn on the lights and the A/C and rev the engine to 3500Rpms.. that's about a 40 amp draw from your Accessories and ignition system.. Hmmm 84 amps..

Tis means the battery is siffering long term discharge.. and gven with lon bass hits the battery will be discharged..

A Disrcharged battery becoming a resistor and drawing more current to recharge..thus alowong less alternator current to be used to the amps and the rest of the electrical system.. In neons case a 90 amp alternator "should" Do the trick...but most alternators don't produce their full ratings under 3500Rpms..When I had my stock alt.. the highest current it would put out was 73 amps but at that draw voltage dropped to 11.9 volts..at the amps.... at 11.9 volts at the amps..they will guess what.. draw even more current to produce it's power..

See the Problem Bro..[IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]..

Cheers
Mohawk

 
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actually i dont, cause my alternator keeps the voltage up, even after playing loud music for 2 hours on the road, and the only time my battery has dipped below 12 volts is when i pleyd VERY LOW level music while installing in my garage for five hours straight. tried to start teh car, wouldnt work =p

never had a voltage problem. It looks very nice on paper tho, ill admit. But you cant argue with my voltmeter. [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG]

 
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How Accurate is your volt meter [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]..How loud U crankin it?...

Maybe you're lucky and have a factory freak alternator [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]..

My Sonata's 70 amp alternator somehow manged to put out over 110 amps [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]..

 
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youve seen my volt meter, actually [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG] autometer, CF, 2-1/16 inch, center console, to fill teh hole the deck is in

haha i was gonna post an image, but my site is down [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG] oops, oh well, ill edit later [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG]

i have no idea how much current im pulling, and as long as my dimming isnt too severe, and my battery doesnt die, and my voltage stays above 12, then im just fine with it.

 
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Mohawk: I just wanted to let you know that the BP-1200.1 puts out its RMS rating at 12.5v, where most amps require 13.8v to 14.4v to put out their RMS power. So...it's going to be more efficient than most class D amps. Okay...I have a couple of questions. Those alts for the sonata, eclipse, etc...do those fit without any modification? If not, how hard is it to re-build the factory alt? I think 90 amps should do the job nicely, so if I can get that much power, I will be happy.

 
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Neon.. just because the amp puts out it's rated power at 12.5 volts doesn't make it any more efficient.. MTX81000D's put otu rated power at 12.5 volts but pretty inneficient as far as class D amps go.... All that emans is that at higher voltage it will put out more power than it's tayed output but at the same efficiency....

The Alternators are 100% Identical so it'd be a plug and play drop it..Check with a local alternator shop just to be sure.. maybe the regularo/plugin are configured different.

Cheers
Mohawk

 
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hey man 12 volts my [IMG]i/expressions/moon.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/moon.gif[/IMG] that guage clearly shows 6 volts what U talkin abotu willis.. [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]

Just kiddin.

Cheers
Mohawk

 
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[IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]

[removed pic for size]

beyotch![IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/IMG] [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/IMG]

 
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he he he that pics not blurred from the bass.. [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]..you didn't have your system cranked.. Bahhh...[IMG]i/expressions/moon.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/moon.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/moon.gif[/IMG]

Just buggin ya dude

 
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Damn your pics are big... good thing i'm not on dialup.

why can't you shrink them to a managable size. Photoshop is easyenough to find why don't you download it and shrink your darn pics [IMG]i/expressions/moon.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/moon.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/IMG]

 
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digi cam is set real high......

had to display at 14V, a matter of pride! [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/IMG]

but seriously, i literally ran out to my car, took a pic real quick, and ran back in.

that temp gauge is for sale, BTW cheap.

 
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Hehe...I found out that my dimming is worse than I thought!! I was coming home from work tonight, and I decided to crank it for a minute, just for the hell of it. Well, my voltmeter was hopping up and down...and my headlights were dimming enough to make a couple of cars flash their lights at me! [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG] Oh well...I usually don't listen to it that loud at night unless I'm cruising. Oh yeah, I also had my defrost on to get rid of some fog and all of my neons were on too. Like I said before, though, if I upgrade to 4 guage wire, and get a bigger cap, the dimming shouldn't be as bad. Btw, Mohawk, sorry 'bout saying the amp would be more efficient since it was rated at 12.5v...I was talking out of my @$$. I just assumed it would be more efficient. I'm going to bed now... [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/IMG]

 
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Neon no worries man ...I try to educate... sometimes I'm just a little to blunt about it..

Cheers Bro[IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG]

Mohawk

 
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I read ll this stuff and all the stuff on caps and alts at carsound and I still don't know what i shoul dbe using for my system!

I have a 1F cap. Should I lose it? I am into SQ but also do SPL shows. I don't have an Optima yet. SHould I get one, or a HO Alt or what? [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/IMG]

D

 
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I've spent a great deal of time on this lately and have talked with RC himself and several other extremely knowledgable people on this subject. First you must realize that there are several conflicting opinions on this and both sides will go to the grave believing what they believe. That's just the way it is in autosound, strong views & opinions. You just grab what information you can, study it, research it, and draw your own conclusions. What I have done is go back 15-20 years or more to the guys who first put autosound competition on the map and studied what they had in their systems. Several of them are still around and I was able to track some of them down through email and have talked at length with them about the charging system setups they used as well as other aspects of their systems. These guys primary goal was achieving great SQ. The trend today leans very heavily towards flashy installs but not enough time is being concentrated on achieving great SQ which is the whole point. OK, that's another discussion, back to the charging system.

This is my take...Upgrade the battery. The Optima is a great battery. Since you are running a competition level system the Yellow Top would be the way to go. Just use one, no need for multiple batteries unless you are into extreme SPL. As far as caps....I don't believe caps are totally useless as long as you look for an ESR under 3 milliohms. I'm going with the Stinger "Super Caps", they're nothing like the Alumapro CAPs, and hence are much larger for the same capacity. They're much bigger per farad. They actually work because they have a low ESR/ESL which is the big argument against against the BatCaps, the C.A.P. by AlumnaPro, and several of the others. However, they are big and they are pricey.

I believe we can upgrade our factory alternator to a 90 amp configuration (thanks Mohawk for the info, still looking into it) and leave it at that. Huge systems in the past had no problems using the factory alternators. I believe HO alts for us SQ guys are not necessary in most situations. Also, upgrade the factory wiring to 4 gauge, very important.

That's my take. Not saying I'm right or wrong but I feel comfortable with the above plan based on my discussions with competitors who are much more knowledgable on the subject than me. You gotta love this stuff!

 
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Hey SQ.

Good call.. [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG].. you took all the info me and rabbit put up..took it to the pro's got more info..give it another year we'll all be the pro's people are coming to.. he he..

Cheers
Mohawk

 
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I'm still not completely satisfied yet. Got a couple of major road trips coming up in April to go hang with a couple of the 1st place winners from the Spring Break Nationals that just happened in Florida. I'll feel better after picking these guys brains and will let 2K1 know what I find out.

 
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On Your road trip too.. Keep your system cranked..wear earplugs if need be and see how your alternator and battery hold up.. just for fun you know [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]..if White rabbit and Rdichard Carke are right you'll have NOOO Problems at all.. wanna chance it [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]

Cheers
Mohawk

 
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I have no system yet. I'm driving around with a completely gutted car with only one seat! Talk about getting funny looks at stop lights.

 
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I remember that.. before I deadened my car I had it hollowed out..so I went to track to see what I could run lol..Got alotta funnt looks from people on the highway.. at the track.. my girlfrien lol..

 
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Mohawk, where did you get your Ohio Generator alt from? I don't see their website anywhere.