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<rant>

Maybe I just have no common knowledge about security system installers, but I figured I'd share my recent experience with Audio Express and the security system they installed on my car.

I ordered up a Viper 350 with a hood pin, second siren, and backup battery. I asked that they be sure to hide the sirens well and not mount that antenna right in the middle of my windshield, mainly because it's ugly and I don't care whether or not I can trigger my security system from 100 yards away.

What Audio Express did wrong:

1. Didn't mount the "brain" to anything. Just left it hanging by its little harnesses. Obviously the internal shock sensors won't function unless it is mounted to something solid. My hand still hurts from beating on the frame of the car trying to trigger even a warning chirp.

2. Mounted siren #1 right behind the hood latch pointed down at the heat shield. Well hidden. If you're a 3-year-old who can't see above the bumper.

3. Installed not a backup battery, but a siren with a built-in battery. Siren #2 supposedly continues to sound even if it is triggered and then power is disconnected. It then has to be disabled with a key.

4. Mounted siren #2 to shock absorber mount with a strip of metal, drilling a screw through the mount. Thanks for putting a hole in one of the structural elements of my car. There are only about 10 other obvious places to mount a siren in that engine compartment.

5. Siren #2 doesn't function as advertised. When the system is triggered and then the car battery is disconnected, the whole system is silenced.

6. Siren #2 isn't what I asked for first place. Salesman's exact words upon me picking up the vehicle: "Oh yeah, you get a siren with a backup battery."

7. Mounted the antenna square in the middle of my windshield.

8. Left grease marks on the dash and other plastic surfaces in the car.

9. Hid the valet switch somewhere I can't find it, and neither could the salesman when he returned the car to me.

I don't think their manager is going to enjoy seeing me tomorrow. If you live in a town that has one, stay away from Audio Express.

</rant>

 
Rep Power: 812

Wow, the only thing I let them do is install a deck and speakers in my 87 Jetta. And even that was a mistake. I wouldn't let them touch my civic.

 
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where you from man? i got an audio express in my town

 
Rep Power: 337

1. you didnt ask for special mounitng for the brain. this is the standard way , to have the brain merely located in the underdash. And the shock sensor IS desined to work not being mounted to something solid! the standard location is to ziptie it to a wire harness. any wire harness. If your shock sensor doesnt work to your liking, ask them to retune, and tell them its too sensitive, or not sensitive enough. They will tell you why its bad to change it, nod and smile, and tell them you want it your way anwyays.

2. I still cant believe you bought two sirens. but if you are dissatisfied with the mounting locations, since you did specify "well hidden", ask them to relocate, and be more specific, so they dont have a leg to stand on when you take it back the third time to relocate again.

3. as far as the salesman and the rest of the world is concerned, a "siren with a backup battery" and a "siren with an integrated battery" is the same thing. Not teh salesmen's problem.

4. I must ingfer that you are upset they put a hole in a structural member of your car. if your car is in danger of a poor collision based on that little hole, your qualm is with Honda, not the shop. the car is built to take it, they know tons of punk kids are going to do far worse the the car. structurally, its okay.

you seem to be very hung up on their siren location choices. If you yourself are a good salesmen, you can convince them why their choices didnt fit your requirements of well hidden. if you can then define those requirements, or suggest locations with the salesman, you might be able to get locations that are satisfactory for you.

If you want to, you can even ask to speak with an installer, instead. If you do this, you will get the hatred of both the salesman and the installer, one for blowing him off and telling him in so many words he sucks at his job, and the other, for wasting his time. If you do this, hand them your keys at your own risk. I hung up on customers that did this to me, I charged them extra (and believe me, its EASY to tack on an extra $20 here or there in a shop for ANY reason), and as an installer, that customer got the biblical carpenter install. the one thats done shoddy and quick, wiht a nice coat of paint so everything looks honkey dory. Dont be outraged. EVERY shop does stuff like this. period. period.

5. I agree, this is BS. when a customer asks for "a siren with a back up battery", what he really is saying, is "I dont want the alarm to shut off when teh battery is disconnected, however this may be accomplished." yours doesnt do that? I'd definitely have them fix that. Thats not good at all.

6. salesmen's exact words are meaningless. As long as the function is as desired, who cares if the battery is connected through a plastic housing to the siren. and thats exactly what hte salesman is gonna say to the installers in the back as he bitches about you behind your back.

7. again, thats BS. You say you asked them not to do that. when you get teh car back, make sure they cleaned off hte sticky junk from the sticker from the windshield. But be polite about it, this kind of thing is common. most likely, the salesman forgot to tell the installer the personal requests, so the installer just gave you the standard install. He would be happy to fix this for you, no hard feelings. If there are hard feelings on your side, only then will tehre be hard feelings on his side. chances are, the whole debacle is just poor communicatrion between teh installer and salesman, happens sometimes, and always easily rectified through a polite customer.

doublecheck your recipt, too. if you were charged for a specialty install, but didnt get it, then it will be REAL easy to get them to lick your *****. if they gave you a standard price, youve got your work cut out for you.

9. The salesman should have checked with the installer on that one. if this work has been done recently, the installer should remember the car, and can tell teh salesman where he put it, who can then show you. did you check the coin pocket? thats pretty common, for a 2k1 civic.

"I don't think their manager is going to enjoy seeing me tomorrow." If you disrespect the manager, your car will get disrespected. and both parties will probably feel justified. Unfortunately, They got your money, and only idf they are slammed for work will you even inconvinience them with the fixes. And you will be left with the car and the job, when all is said and done.

All shops pull stuff like this, and justifiably so. be nice when you go back there, and they will be nice to you, treat your car well, and youll get all your fixes, not to mention you can avoid being shitlisted by your shop's employees.

good luck...

 
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Yeah, I have worked a lot of retail in my life, so it's a game I know how to play both sides of. I really don't think my car is going to fall apart because of that one little screw hole. Thanks for the feedback, I most appreciate it.

The thing about the backup battery is the salesman actually looked it up and told me they were out of stock at that location and would have it transferred in from another locatoin. That was where we left things before I ended up with Mr. Siren-with-Battery.

Using two sirens seems not too unheard of from what I've read around here. It sure is loud!

 
Rep Power: 812

I have two sirens. One visible, and one invisible. Good way to throw off thieves if they just cut siren wires.

At least you didn't go to the audio express that programmed an extra remote. Then some guy came to their house and used it to steal the car.

 
Rep Power: 0

Actually cutting one siren wire will disable the other all depending how it's wired up.
The best thing is a back-up battery with a hidden siren or a back-up battery siren mounted in a difficult to rip out location. Horn honk also helps out really well too, but only a few alarms have a dedicated horn output.

 
Rep Power: 306

Ethics.

Look it up, understand what it means, and think about why you should practice GOOD ethics.

A good installer is well trained in the proper installation of alarms. I am certified by Alpine, DEI, Clifford, and Codealarm. If an installer does not want to do a good job, he is either incompetent or lazy. This is the entire problem with auto ICE and security. People have forgotten that all these things are only worth the install. Seasoned and experienced installers quit every day because Best Buy and Circuit City insist that any 18 year old with a pair of crimpers can install. A Certified installer means nothing. You can take a test that I passed with a 97 percent without even opening the book. I could never make as much money as in installer as I do working for Honda. NEVER.

How many show cars are out there. Not enough to feed your family. I go to shows and cringe at the hedious installs of the wiring. Pop the hood on the last swap I did. You cannot see anything different except that my wiring is cleaner than HONDA. And I converted an automatic car to a JDM manual. Even inside where you don't see the wires, they are better than stock. Why, because I care about what I do. People see my work and are proud. I have done 11 show cars and never had one complaint. I won medals. That is ethics.

So when you focus on price in an alarm, you are wasting your money. Sure, save some money on the equipment, but pay for the install at a shop that cares.

The siren, any siren should be mounted facing down away from the front of the car. It should be hidden or at least mounted securely, so as to prevent it from being merely yanked out. The wires should be loomed and taped, so as to protect the wires from heat, but to also hide them in the dark. The valet should be accessible or hidden, as sometimes it disables the alarm also, but this should be discussed with the owner beforehand. The brain should be mounted high inside the dash, preferrably behind a panel or frame. It should be securely mounted. Wire ties are permissable, but you should have to work to get to it. If it is hanging two inches above the panel, it is easy to pull down and unplug.

The industry has gone to crap. Free installs are the devil. I would never let anyone work on my car. I am exacting and detailed when they do. I let them know up front what I expect and get it in writing. I have no problem cancelling my Visa payment.

AS for the comments about people crapping on your install because they don't like you. Find another shop. Or call the owner, district manager, or president of the chain.

And I was an installer for 13 years. Why did I start, because some shop ripped me off. I knew I could do better, so I did. Every car I worked on was something I was proud of. It is easy to be good and fast. You just learn the tricks. No car left with missing screws. Even if it came in, I replaced them. I bought screws by the thousands. Missing screws make a perfect install crap. All for 25 cents in screws. People always comment that this was loose, now it is nice, I guess it was better to pay to get it done.

My advice to you. Even if you don't quite understand how, at least understand what you want. Installers are busy, and most are not really people persons. They love cars, but if you go in on a slow time during the week and ask them what they have done, they usually love to show off. Throw done a tip before hand. I guarantee a 20 will change the way they look at you. If they work in a shop that does not accept tips, buy pizza for the whole shop. I actually made a ton of friends with customers who were nice. They looked out for me, I looked out for them.

Learn to negoitiate. Bad attitudes don't help. But do shop around for quality, not just price. After all, a good install makes an okay product perform. A bad install makes the best product crap.

 
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Amen brother!!! Being in the industry for 11 years I know what you mean.

 
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my story is like rick... i didnt know any audio crap but only reason i started to learn was because i was ripped off... and i started doin cars and noticed shops only screwing in 1 or 2 screws and ghetto wiring a lot of stuff. Stuff i would not have known if i didnt know anything. Not many shops in Oregon and they charge like $300+ for installing an alarm, so i learned to do it myself. in 3 years i went from knowing absolutely nothing to installing 40+ cars for me and my friends. Most shops are just out to get ur $, they could care less about ur car... if you dont do it urself, take it to a place that will do a decent job on ur car.

 
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Here is an update to my Audio Express saga.

I took the Civic in today to have the security system reworked. They won't have a backup battery in stock until later this week, but I had the siren relocated and other miscellaneous stuff taken care of. The wiring still isn't up to par. I was appropriately firm/friendly with the manager and got what I wanted without much grief. He and the install manager were good enough that when I got hungry and ordered pizza, I had a couple extra thrown in for the crew.

Now every time I open my trunk, the siren sounds continuously. There is nothing I can do, short of disconnecting the battery, to get it to shut up when I'm working in my trunk.

Can anybody help me with that one?

Also, where is a good alternative location for the antenna (other than the middle of the windshield)? I didn't have them move it today because I didn't entirely trust their advice on where to place it.

 
Rep Power: 0

[QUOTE=WhiteRabbit If you disrespect the manager, your car will get disrespected. and both parties will probably feel justified......................................... ................
All shops pull stuff like this, and justifiably so. good luck...[/QUOTE]

Wow that's some harsh statements of reality from a "professional" of car audio. I'm truly glad that I do 95% of my own installs myself. Gee I should offer the same type of service at my job, as a professional, if somebody "disses me", or disrespects my work, or rubs me the wrong way.....oh wait I can't because..... if I as a "professional", had such low morals and ethics...people could die. WhiteRabbit i've always read and respected your posts for over 2 years now......I'd hope that you wouldn't stoop to such low ethics if a customer rubbed you the wrong way or didn't think your work was exactly what they were paying for. If a shop wants to charge for "professional" work, they should offer a professional service, if they would truly like to ever be truly considered pro's.

 
Rep Power: 786

Good move on buying them pizza, show them you are their friend and not just some *******.

Is your alarm disarmed when you open your trunk? If so it shouldn't go off and I can't help you with that one... if it's easy enough you could always unplug the alarm brain.

I was thinking about this the other day, and you might be able to mount it either near your map lights somehow, OR extend the wires if they are not long enough and mount it on the BACK window. On my car ht eback window is kinda shaded at the top and you would not be able to see the antenna very well or at all.

 
Rep Power: 329

i think thats the self fulfilling prophecy. you tell them they can't install for siht, he's gonna make you right. but still get your buck. have you worked in retail before? sometimes people snap at you for something small (they might be pissed about something else when they came in) and take it too far. letting someone know you're unsatisfied is not a big deal, but making it a personal insult is. that's where the line is drawn.

it would be unethical to install a different alarm than the customer paid for. or to wire an extra remote in and steal it. i do not see an "ethics" issue in doing a half *** job (that pays only slightly above the federal poverty level in a majority of cases).

 
Rep Power: 337

when we relocate the antenna, we usually start by trying inside the drivers side A pillar.

then the underdash, but usually the A-pillar is the way to go

 
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Update:

Having educated myself somewhat further on security systems, I've determined that the installer forgot to diode isolate one of the sensors and that is causing the false trigger on my system.

Since this is the second time they've worked on my car and messed up, they can take they system back -- all of it. Obviously I now have no confidence in their ability to properly install a security system.

The trick now is to defeat their "no refund" policy. Bad on me for not even considering that before I purchased from them.

 
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I'd blame it on DEI for not manufacturing better products that have more than one input.

What two triggers were wired together?? Just curious.

 
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I guess that's why DIY is the ultimate way to go for anything car audio....atleast then the only person to blame would be yourself. I'd rather waste money installing/purchasing equipment that doesn't satisfy me than paying somebody hundreds of dollars to install something i'm not satisfied with that turns around and says it's my own fault and there is a no refund policy. No wonder there's no money to be made in the car audio industry.....the wannabe professionals ruin it for all of the true ones.

 
Rep Power: 337

my dei alarm had 5 zones.......