Rep Power: 0

Hi, I'm hoping to get a handle on what has been causing this noise i've been having in my Civic. You can find a video capturing the sound on Youtube under #K3MkS-vg2ac, and a second one during a particulary noisy time under #zTHFUsgSSdM, and finally a third one under #3ZcbhFY8jLg.

Problem: 2007 Civic Si squealing/whining noise with clutch disengaged (pedal out). Noise disappears when clutch is pressed in. Squeal/whine seems proportional to RPMs, peaking around 2500 RPM, at which point there is a noticeable vibration when sitting in neutral. Above 2500 the vibration and sound seems to subsist. Fully or even slightly pressing in on clutch pedal seems to eliminate the noise. This seems to happen on a cold start, and subsides shortly on warmup, though it's starting to last longer now.

Background: I have ~211k miles on my car now. I've had the car since about 60k miles (bought in 2010), and as far as I know, it's all original stock with original clutch, tranny, etc. I did change out the transmission fluid in 12/15 (175k mi.-used Honda fluid), and also changed out the clutch and brake fluids in 7/16 (182k mi). I do recall also the gears sticking a little/hard shifting in August of this year (8/17-205k), and I performed a clutch adjustment according to info and the associated links I found on the forum. That seemed to solve the hard shifting problem, and all seemed fine for a while.

The noise has just started in the last few months to a year. Sorry, but I can't remember exactly when because it started out as a pretty slight, very brief noise only on cold starts on colder mornings, and I mostly ignored it. I would say it started in the Spring maybe. Unfortunately, I can't say for sure if this noise began before or after the clutch adjustment I mentioned earlier, but I don't remember a correlation, and I'm pretty sure I would have noted that if it was the case. Originally it used to do it only when colder outside, and only on cold starts, and would last only a few seconds on startup before stopping. Lately it's gotten worse, and is doing it most times when I crank the car, and is making the noise for a longer period of time before stopping. I replaced the serpentine/accessory belt, since the old one looked a little cracked anyhow, and I thought this might be the cause. I tried to inspect the pulleys when changing the belt too (for sure the idler and tensioner pulleys), and they seemed to be fine from visual inspection.

The car still makes the noise after changing the belt. It's possible changing the belt made it even louder. I did take a quick video, and I also noticed that the noise goes away when the clutch is engaged (pushed down), and comes back when the clutch is released (pedal up). It does make the noise at idle, and with the car in neutral- it's just dependent on the clutch position. It will also make the noise when starting out, at least in first and second gears. It used to fade away pretty quickly, so by the time I hit 3rd gear it would have been gone. The noise would not come back after the car had been driven for a while. Just recently, it's been making the noise longer (and louder), and I did hear it happening in higher gears as well after listening for this.

I've been reading some stuff about clutch-dependent noises on Civics, and one possibility would seem to be the input shaft bearing (ISB). The videos I've seen of this seem to be a different noise though, so I'm not sure that's the problem. I'm hoping that I'm not looking at major transmission issues.

Thanks for any help/advice you can offer!

 
Rep Power: 519

Can you make a video that has the noise loud and clear, and show what you are doing when it makes the noise/doesn't make the noise?

This part is interesting. How much is "slightly"?

 
Rep Power: 0

Yes, I think the first video I made above does a pretty good job of that- I had my son push the clutch in and release several times, so you can hear the noise come and go, and correlate that with when I ask for the clutch to be pushed in/released.


So far as "slightly" goes, I can try to measure more precisely, but I feel like the noise dissipated as soon as I got beyond the slack point of the pedal rest position- that is, as soon as I started to feel a little resistance. For sure, it was no where near the bottom of the travel.

 
Rep Power: 519

Oh crap I forgot which post I was responding to. I meant to tell you to C&P the complete youtube URL into your post and the video should automatically embed the link, as the one above did.

Anyway, that's a helluva lot of noise. And it's a weird noise.

Can you tell where the noise might originate, maybe use or improvise a stethoscope....long screwdriver or wooden dowel held to your ear.......length of tubing held to your ear.......?

Does it originate in the transmission?
Clutch/bellhousing area?
Engine?
Front timing chain cover area?
Oil pan?
This is still significant in my mind....makes me wonder if the crank is "walking" due to worn thrust bearing...or if the crank pulley is rubbing the timing chain cover for some reason (like it's separating the outer pulley ring from its center hub)

Get a good flashlight, run the engine.....Watch the spinning crankshaft pulley closely when someone sits in the car and pushes/releases the clutch pedal. See if the pulley is moving outward when the clutch pedal is pushed down.....and moves inward as the pedal is released.

If it moves in and out enough to see with your eyes, it may need to be measured to see how much movement is actually there and compared to (crankshaft end play) specs....
If the pulley wobbles while it is running, it could be in need of replacement.

 
Rep Power: 0

Hi ezone, thx for your thoughts. For my first post, it would not allow me to post the complete link. I tried again after your request and was pleasantly surprised when it embedded the video this time. Since that worked so well, here's another I took during a particularly noisy time: I'm not sure you can see it in the video, but I could definitely feel a noticeable vibration in a small band around 2500 rpm. Maybe that's normal or unrelated to this noise issue?


Since that time, and recalling that I had performed a clutch adjustment earlier this summer when I had some sticky shifting, I decided to try checking the clutch adjustment. In the position I had the push rod, the slave cylinder seemed pretty hard to compress all the way in, so i decided to turn the rod in 1/2 turn. I could then compress the slave completely without too much effort, and locked the push rod in place there. I've only driven a couple times since, and didn't notice any real difference on the first drive. Since then, the noise hasn't been as loud as in the video above. It's also warmed up here and not been as cold, so that could be the primary reason. I'll monitor for a while and see if this made any real difference. I don't know if the clutch adjustment is sensitive to temperature at all, but if it is, I did initially perform it in the heat of GA summer. Temps have cooled considerably since, so maybe that could explain why I need to turn the push rod another 1/2 turn in, and perhaps also explain why the noise only occurs or at least is noticeably worse in colder weather & on cold starts.

I may also try bleeding the clutch, although I'm sure I did this previously when I changed out the fluid. I just bled the clutch like you do the brake lines. I did not compress the slave cylinder manually as described in the link below, though I'm not sure that's really necessary? I'm pretty sure I did good job in bleeding the clutch, and haven't had any issues shifting since then, so I'm not sure this is a good candidate.

How to properly bleed your hydraulic clutch DSMtuners

My thinking on the above possible fixes was that maybe the clutch wasn't fully disengaging the thrust bearing when releasing the pedal, thus causing the squeal/whine? Even if that's the case, I'm not sure I should expect the noise I hear unless the thrust bearing is bad.

As for where the sound is coming from, at first I thought it was coming from the serpentine belt, as it seemed to come from that general area. However, after replacing the belt and the noise not going away, I tried to listen closer and see if I could pinpoint it, and I really couldn't. A PVC tube could be a good idea to isolate the source, so I'll try that this weekend, along with watching the crank pulley.

I'm leaning now towards the thrust bearing being the culprit. Given that my car has >210k miles on it now, and with this being the original clutch, I guess it should not be too surprising to have clutch problems? If this turns out to be the case, I guess it would make sense to get an entire clutch replacement kit, rather than replace just the thrust bearing? I'm also debating whether the clutch replacement is a job I want to take on myself or not. I'm no mechanic, but with some good DIY instructions I can manage to get things done, although I may not be the most efficient at it. I recently did my son's timing belt on his '06 Accord, and while it took me a couple days off and on (a lot of which was just referencing material), everything turned out great there, and the cost tradeoff and experience definitely made it worthwhile. How much should I expect to pay for a stock clutch replacement? I hear a lot of talk about clutch upgrades and the like, but honestly, I've been fine with the stock clutch and have obviously gotten many miles from it, so unless there's some compelling factors for me to change, i'd probably go that route again. Any thoughts/recommendations there?

 
Rep Power: 519

That's an ugly bunch of racket even on my crummy laptop speakers.

Nobody should ever need to jack with clutch pedal pushrod adjustment under normal circumstances, unless the master cylinder is replaced.

If there isn't enough free play in that pushrod, the master won't uncover the compensator port (fluid return port) when the pedal is released, and when that happens the hydraulic system isn't able to release the clutch completely, and that can get worse as temperature changes. If you couldn't push the slave in that's probably why......and that constant pressure could have burned up the throwout bearing....and that constant pressure also puts wear on the crank thrust bearing.

 
Rep Power: 0

I did not replace the master cylinder, as I didn't notice any leaking. The shifting was very difficult to the point where my wife was complaining she couldn't get it in gear sometimes prior to my doing the adjustment, and it was definitely much improved after, shifting as well as I ever remember it. Again, I don't rememeber a correlation of the noise starting after the adjustment- in fact, I'm almost positive it started before I ever made the adjustment because I think I remember cooler mornings in the spring with this noise, but I could be wrong on that. In any event, the noise was always very brief, only on cold starts, and cooler mornings as I recall. It only recently started getting worse, and making the noise for a longer time.

When I checked the other day, I won't say I couldn't push the slave in at all, but it did seem quite difficult to do so, and when I backed off 1/2 turn, it did seem easier to me. I didn't notice any real difference in the noise immediately, but it has subsided since, though that also conicides with a warm spell. I since backed off the cruise switch as well to allow more freeplay with the clutch at rest, thinking maybe when I adjusted the pushrod I didn't leave enough freeplay. There was very little, if any, freeplay before I could start to feel resistance when pressing in the pedal. After the adjustment, although still slight, there was more freeplay. After this adjustment, I did hear a noise the very next morning, but since that time, I haven't really heard the noise. Again, the weather has been warmer, so this could be coincidental. I'll keep an ear open for a while and monitor this.

I will check out the crankshaft movement with clutch engagement/disengagement this weekend, and let you know what I find.

 
Rep Power: 519

If someone always drives around with their foot laying on the clutch pedal, that can cause premature wear of the throwout bearing and thrust bearing too.

 
Rep Power: 0

Yep, for sure. I'm very careful about that myself- as I mentioned, this car has >210k miles on it with original clutch. I bought the car with 60k miles on it, so I can't speak to the previous owner's habits, but according to what i've read, that's already pretty good miles out of this clutch. Would you agree, or do you think that I should be expecting more? My wife only drives the car on weekends, and even then only occasionally. I did just recently lecture her about leaving the clutch in at stops, which i noticed she had a habit of doing. But she drives it so rarely, I doubt it had any significant impact on the clutch life.

I've got an old Pathfinder with 275k miles on it now, and still on the original clutch, so I consider myself pretty easy on clutches.

 
Rep Power: 0

Ok, I took a look at the crank pulley today- no noticeable movement with the clutch, either with the car running or not. I don't think there's a problem there. I also tried to listen more closely as to where the noise was coming from. I used a PVC tube, but it was really had to discern anything. I'm pretty sure the noise was coming more from underneath, and it sounded more like on the passenger side, but I couldn't say for sure.

Unless there's a compelling argument to the contrary, I think we're looking at just a worn-out thrust bearing/clutch due to normal wear and tear over 10+ years and >210k miles. Assuming this to be the case, I just need to decide what all I should replace, and what parts I should replace with. Any recommendations welcome!

 
Rep Power: 519

Throwout bearing. That's the one that pushes on the clutch pressure plate.


Thrust bearing is the one that keeps the crankshaft from moving in and out. Apparently that's OK.
When you pull the trans out, make sure you find the source of the noise--I'm sure you don't want to pull the trans out more than once!

Plan for doing the normal clutch parts to insure the trans doesn't need to be pulled out again anytime soon:
Standard clutch job. Disc, pressure plate, throwout bearing, and pilot bearing (bushing in this case),
inspect flywheel surface and decide if it needs attention at that time (clutch engagement has been ok up til now, yes?)

Fresh trans fluid

I'd suggest both axle seals just because they will be disturbed when the axles are removed and installed, you don't want those to leak

 
Rep Power: 0

Hi again ezone,

thanks a lot for you advice! Yes, I was referring to the throwout bearing, although many people seem to also refer to this as the thrust bearing (or clutch release bearing, or clutch thrust bearing-e.g.. http://training.bsc.com.au/Training/.../A9014-P07.htm). The throwout bearing techincally is a thrust bearing, so I can see why the terminology gets confused. Based on the crankshaft movement context, I knew you were referring to the crankshaft thrust bearings, and not the clutch thrust bearing. I failed to be specific enough in my reply and used the generic "thrust bearing", but I was referring to the clutch thrust bearing.

recommended replacement parts= pretty much what I was thinking, except that I just recently changed the tranny fluid and thought I'd avoid that if I could, and I wasn't sure about the axle seals.

Thx again for your help!

 
Rep Power: 519

Your link is to an Australian site.....that explains the use of that ODD (to me) terminology. Europeans have different terms for lots of stuff too, they are almost like different languages.

Up here in Norf 'Murica it's 'industry accepted' common name is throwout bearing. Release bearing is also acceptable.

Trust me, 99% of mechanics in this country will look at you like you have a 3rd eye in the middle of your forehead if you call it something we don't ever hear.
We automatically make certain assumptions about you too LOL


Step 2 in the FSM is probably gonna be to drain the fluid.

Common sense says: I don't want uncontrolled spilling all over the place (and myself) while I wrestle the trans out of and back into the car. (I HATE getting dirty)
Plus, it's only like 2 quarts of fluid.


Factory axle seals are best IMO, MSRP is only like $10 for one and $14 for the other

 
Rep Power: 0

Well, strangely enough, the noise has gone away for the last few weeks. I initially thought it was because the weather was warmer, but it has now turned bitter cold here, and I still don't hear the noise any longer. I don't hear a discernable difference with clutch in or out, and it was very, very noticeable before, as you heard in some of the videos. I guess I won't worry about this until if/when the noise reoccurs.

 
Rep Power: 0

Well, it's back now, and worse than ever. There is one big difference now, and that is that the noise is now the loudest when pushing the clutch in. Before, pushing the clutch in made the noise disappear. Also, shifting into gear is damn near impossible at times. This degradation happened very fast during my commute to work, and when I arrived, I noticed a burning smell. I tried to leave early from work so I could avoid Atlanta traffic and not have to shift much, but as luck would have it, there was an accident on my normal route and I was forced to go through the middle of A-town. The traffic was also very backed up there, and I ended up driving through right in the midst of rush hour- fun! Avoiding stopping in Atlanta in rush hour is quite challenging, and took way more skill than my normal Speed Racer bob & weave. I was fortunate and only had to stop twice, at which point the car actually stalled and I had to recrank. The clutch would not fully disengage the transmission, and in order to crank it, I had to put it in neutral as otherwise it would still be slightly in gear and drag too much to crank. Once cranked, it was very difficult getting it back into gear, so I did everything I possibly could to avoid stopping/shifting into neutral. Upshifting wasn't terrible, but downshifting, or initially going into gear from neutral, was almost impossible. I didn't hear any grinding, just very tough to engage. Once I got thru Atlanta I was able to stay in 6th, and amazingly, I actually made it home unscathed and without a tow truck. By the time I got to my exit ramp, the car was shifting almost normally again.

It seems clear my clutch is shot, probably the throwout bearing nearly disintegrated, and maybe the pressure plate gone? The last is just a conjecture since the transmission never seemed to fully disengage with the clutch pushed in. Any thoughts or advice?

Thx guys for all your help

 
Rep Power: 519

Time to yank it all apart to find out what really happened?

I've seen a Honda throwout bearing destroyed before
Also inspect the pilot bushing/bearing while apart

 
Rep Power: 0

Hi all,

sorry to be delayed in posting this follow-up, but I wanted to let everyone know what the problem turned out to be. It was indeed the clutch throwout bearing, and not the input shaft bearing on the transmission. This was welcome news to me, as it's a much less-expensive fix. After getting some initial pricing, I had debated about doing this job myself. Finally, I found a mechanic willing to do the work for $475, with me supplying the parts. I jumped on that, and at $130 for the Exedy clutch kit, I had my car back on the road out the door, for barely over $600. So far, I'm happy with the work- I have no more noise and the car is shifting like it did previously. I can't say it's smooth as silk, but it's like I always remember it being prior to having any issues. Could be they didn't use Honda MTF- I forgot to specify this when I talked with them about the job, and forgot to ask them about it after. They did say the throwout bearing fell to pieces. They took a look at the tranny side of things and said all looked fine on that side.

Thanks to ezone especially, for all your help and input!