RIPSAW

Need an opinion on where to start for a P1009 error. When it occured, got a check engine light and a Stability Control Light on but they when away on restart. Engine untill turned off was obivious that it had a problem with a whole engine miss stumble when pulling away. Problem occured coasting to a red light. 2005 CR-V iVETC. 105,000 miles. Normal maintenance has always been done. First engine problem ever. Oil has apx 4000 mile and 4 months on it but looks clean. Normally change at 8000.

Did the youtube on the spool solenoid on the back side with the pressure valve and filter. The VTC strainer on passenger side end of engine just behind belt tensioner and the VTC valve.

Noticed there is a note about replacing pressure valve but the spool valve complete is only $40 more.

Is it worth replacing screens or since I am keeping car just replace the
spool valve complete and VTC valve complete and it's separate filter.

Again, thanks for your opinions

ezone

. VTC is not VTEC.

I just googled P1009, the very first hits that came up for me was
"VTC actuator" and "stretched timing chain" and "damaged tensioner".

Hondas P1009 code definition is 'variable valve timing control (VTC) advance malfunction'


NOTE: There is a bulletin# 08-089 about a software update for this code. Applies to all CRVs 05-08 and some 09 models.


I would first make sure the solenoid that sticks through the timing cover is still plugged in, then yank the valve cover off and check all timing marks, see if one cam has jumped time by a tooth or more. IF it has, it needs a timing chain job.
Measure chain for stretch as per a service manual (measure tensioner plunger extension). IF the chain is stretched beyond specs, it still needs a chain job.
Make sure the tensioner ratchet teeth haven't stripped out, the plunger is supposed to ratchet out and not collapse.

Plus more frequent oil changes and/or better quality oil. If the chain stretched already then 8k is TOO long on an oil change. (I keep telling my GFs son about WHY he can't be ignoring oil changes and checking oil level on their 05 CRV, but what does this old man know?)

If the chain has not jumped time nor stretched beyond spec, the software update may solve the code issue.

RIPSAW

It runs fine now and I cannot get it to do it again. First thing I did was make sure the solenoid that sticks through the timing cover looked plugged in. Did not pull it out.

I read the code since check light was on.

Car has truly been driven easy. Rarely above 4K . Does have just a slight tic more then new. Probably valve lash is out about .003 or so but that to me is good. I will focus on what you say above.

Pull the electrical plug and grease with a dialectic grease sound OK.
Drive it to see if it will repeat.

Guess if the timing marks are on, plunger extension out , and ratchet OK and tensioners look OK, should replace the solenoid valve 15830-RBB-003 and filter screen 15845 RAA A01

On a youtub, that filter 15845 RAA A01 also feeds the filter 15815-RRA-A02 filter on the Spool valve in the back of the motor that does the iVET.
That is why I was thinking if it was filters..maybe replace them all while tinkering. I at almost 70 will probably take it to my dealer for a chain. I have the service manual but it's now a little daunting now.

ezone

NO dielectric grease. Just inspect.

Tensioner plunger extension has max length spec.

I have not ever replaced the vtc control solenoid, it's usually been a real chain issue.

RIPSAW

Got the cover off. Cranked around to number one top dead center and the marks are dead on with the gear mark at 3 and 9 o-clock. The darker links are on the gear marks slight to right of top. All is clean. Guides look good as best you can see. Chain is tight. Looking in my manual on how to remove tensioner thru wheel well but do not see that tolerance. Know I cannot push guide back from topside. Not exactly sure how to measure if it's at it's maximum travel.

Think maybe the the base timing and all may be OK.

The P1009 calls for in order. Inspect strainer screen. Replace engine oil and filter. Inspect and test VTC actuator (4 checks spelled out) Inspect oil passages (major tear down??HA) Inspect VTC actuator on end of cam.

I have only cleared the P1009 with my reader. Did not clear CKP (not sure if my tool will)

It says if I replace the VTC valve to do the idle learn and the CKP learn. I have have read the manual. If you do not do theses, will it have an idle problem or not eventually learn whatever that does?

ezone

Colored links are only relevant during initial installation, so ignore those and refer to THREE timing marks: two cam marks and the crank mark.

I'm on the road today, sitting in a TGIFridays for lunch at the moment. I'll have to check serv info later for plunger extension spec.


Are you using a service manual that tells you to check those 4 things?
I look for code definition and info on what the computer has to see in order to flag a fault first...


Food is here, gotta eat!

RIPSAW

I have the big OEM 1928 pages CR-V 2005 Service manual . Thats what it says. Guess they may be another check and code for base timing problem. I was figuring it may have been off a little due to one tooth and the VTC thru it out enough more to catch it. Sure don't like that link chain. That is what my Harley has and the guides never stop wearing. The guides could be worn-out and like you say, tensioner is at limit. Car is still running fine. I ordered the strainer and thru it back together. It's the youngest grandaughter's car now and she need it for school and she is not suppose to drive my cars due to insurance since she is no longer on a learners permit. . Wife found out I was buying her a year end Sion car and had a fit. So wife is driving a brand new Crossfit. Could not get her to buy the HRV. (the part 1 and 2 engine and one electrical wiring diagram books for the Crosstrek were over a $1000) so needless to say, I am downloading a manual right now off eBay. (probably bootlegged) Subaru does not want you to work on their car I believe.
Really appreciate you help. If we ever meet, I will be treating you to a fine dinner..

ezone

EDIT: What is a crossfit?

OK so that manual should have the spec for maximum allowable plunger extension and a pic of where the measurement is taken.. You should be able to pull the RF wheel and shields then remove the small triangle shaped tensioner cover (3 small bolts) to access it.

My info says 13.5mm max. when measured between the tensioner body and the step in the plunger tip. May need to mutilate a steel ruler to get it in there,,,,I have a few of them cut and bent for various purposes.


I don't really see the guides wear as much as I see the chains stretch to the point of jumping a tooth on at least one of the gears....but I try to get approval for all the parts when I do the job: chain, guides, tensioner....and oil pump drive chain and parts too.


Filter screens,
I'd expect you can clean them out, and as long as the rubber gaskets are decent and will be able to seal up again, I'd do that first instead of replacing. After you figure this out you can replace whatever you feel necessary.

Now I see the steps you talked about...
Erase codes, then run it to see if same code resets. Did it? (make sure your reader can detect temporary codes as well as permanent codes)
Can your scanner display cam advance/retard degrees?

Sending you a PM too.

RIPSAW

Subaru Crosstrek (sorry..brain fart) is similar to an HRV. Has a funky flat 4 engine. All I need now at this point in life to mess with. One thing that is cool is the oil filter is on top of engine.

Problem has not came back. Bet it's not far away.

Not sure about what reader does. My son's new toy. It plugs in and wireless to his smartphone ap. I'm still flipping and antalog meters. Wish I was still using a timing light and dwell meter hanging on the wall...

There is two flats on the tensioner plunger end that fits into the guide shoe. I guess that is the step and the 13.5 is back to were the plunger comes out of the body. Do not see that tolerance or picture anywhere on inspection even in the wear limit tables. 13.5mm is .526 English. That's a little over 1/2" . I will just cut a shim stock gage. However, looking in the book make it look like you may not be able to check it with full cover on there but I sure can ball park it. I have to get some liquid gasket sealer.

Got a valve cover gasket and the other screens coming to adjust lifters next time I can get car.

Have any idea what a pall park figure is for the labor $$ for a Honda dealer to replace it correctly with chain, guides, tensioner, oil pump drive chain and parts.

What is the lowest mileage you have seen with this being necessary?

ezone

The later K engines have a different way of measuring, and I don't really remember how well you can see the plunger on your earlier engine after the triangle cover is removed, but i think you can see a good portion of it.

No I don't know what you can expect for fees to do the job, I try to stay away from the numbers. And every dealer will probably give you wildly different estimates. $800-1200? IDK.




How much driving has been done since you cleared the code?
I suspect if a timing problem were present it may reset the code shortly after startup (according to the info I sent in the PM).
If the chain and timing isn't a readily verifiable problem, I'd probably go for the software update first.


Lowest mileage.... seen many with chain stretch and jumped time before 100k, a couple have wasted the valves before 100k when the chain jumped, had at least one strip all the teeth off the tensioner ratchet, but most of these I'm thinking of have been in the later cars that use maintenance minder, most already had bad oil consumption problems and were run very low on oil, most were not regular customers at the dealer.

Some actually could prove they had regular oil changes, but most could not, and nobody ever checks their oil on a regular basis..


I do find a use for my timing light and dwell meter about once a year, and yes it's on modern cars with electronic ignition LOL.

RIPSAW

Is the software update just going to give it more tolerance? Obvious, when it thru the code, it was like it was missing on all cylinders. When granddaughter cut it off, she said it would not start till the second try. I was assuming, cam was really off and why it was running like that. Or was the computer just telling it to run that way so you would stop?
Have you ever seen the screen stopped up?

Not a lot of driving since cleared. Son is going to check advance with scantool.

When the chain stretches and the tensioner keeps coming out, when it get near the maximum, does that let the cam timing get further off from the crank and make the engine less efficient till it just shows that error or jumps. Guess there is no way to correct for that. I know if it's out 1/2", I sure can fab a extension and bolt it on the end of the plunger in my shop.

I was watching a you tube on an instillation. That person let the plunger out and then pried on shoe it to get two more clicks. Do you just push the shoe in with your thumbs?

ezone

Info doesn't say what the computer will do when the code sets as far as a fail safe or limp mode.

The only times I personally found crap filling a screen is when there was a bearing failure, and... ....I took care of a hacked up SI engine (2.0 K series) that got a timing chain at some shop but the installer got a little too happy with the silicone sealant and that crap clogged up the screen protecting the VTEC solenoid.

Chain stretch causes the 3 sensor signals to stray away (beyond design tolerance) from the correct signal phasing. You can't fake this by changing the tensoner plunger extension.
You got the PM I sent with other details, yes?


Plunger has a trip lever to release the ratchet, it has a hole for a pin to lock it in place for installation. Push lever down, push in the plunger, Just before it bottoms out you let go of the lever so it will move up to the pin hole . lock in place with a pin.
It usually takes a few tries compressing it to find the right spot tho.

I never force the plunger out, that could cause too much tension on the chain and accelerated wear.
I roll the crank to let it find its own tension naturally.

RIPSAW

Yes I got the PM. Going to print it and try to comprehend it..Saw the lever on the tensioner. Manual say to turn motor cclw and insert pin. Thanks for adding holding lever down. There really does not appear to be a lot of room. The metal splash shield comes pretty far down on the engine . I have my tool for locking my last 1994 Civic crank. Last belt I did.. Still getting it all in my head. How stuck on is that main cover? You talked about replacing the oil pump and balance cam chain. Guess the oil pan needs to come off to do that? I have never worked on a glued together engine like now days.

ezone

Have you actually verified any chain related issue yet?

RIPSAW

No. I changed out the oil and filter this morning. Test drove the car and drove it hard enough to bang 4000 about a dozen times. Not a hint of problem. Waiting on parts since when I tear into it, I need stuff to make sure I can put it back OK.

Did notice the upper motor mount on the passenger side is down on bumper. I replace the drivers side upper transmission mount. The lower back one on the very back side on the sub frame still looks like new. Forget about looking at the front lower till I reviewed my manual. Not a hint of idle roughness like when Civic lost that top right mount. CRV looks similar. The sub-frame has a bumper glued to it that the oil pan would sit on if motor came down. I can get my fingers between it and the pan. Think I ought to replace it.

ezone

STOP.
If the code has not returned by now and the plunger wasn't extended past the max spec, I would not install any major parts. I would spend that money on getting the software update done instead.

Reasoning: If the problem was current and present, the code would have reset already. Issue must be either randomly intermittent or completely false. Software update addresses false.


The GFs sons 05 CRV looks the same but nobody has complained about anything (they wouldn't know if there was ever a problem unless the car won't move under its own power anyway).. I considered unbolting the bracket from the top and placing a washer or two between the mount and the upper arm so as to space it up a little, make sure it isn't bottoming out on the rubber pad.

RIPSAW

Have not been behind the plunger cover. Washers sound my speed. That mount is $175 . If it was broke, no problem but it truly is causing no problem. That engine is smoothest engine I have ever seen. Think that bumper when new was like the new Civic one I put on? About 1/4" or so space? It actually looks a little different.

Only reason I noticed it is there is some type of groan squeak somewhere. Sounds like it's on left up under dash. I have WD40 ever possible joint or seam and cannot locate it. It's only below 20 mph or so and seems to be affected by a shift or steering input. Only reason I am **** about it is it's new and only one after all these years. Do not want anything happening to my 16 year old Granddaughter.

I have only throw about $25 in gaskets and need to get a tube of make a gasket. May just cut one on that cover since I have the material and RTV. Plan on adjusting the valves since I now realize there are adjusters on it. ( I had gotten confused thinking it had buttons like my Toyota)
When I do that, will check the VTC screen and shim mount if possible. Going to look at the Civic one if I still have it. I think you are referring to the cast part on top that normally comes all bolted to mount. On the Civic, it was aluminum. The CRV is cast steel.

ezone

The tensioner cover is sealed with RTV only.
Any Hondabond flavor, or Permatex Ultra Gray.
Smear it on, bolt it together, let it cure a couple hours before running it.

Sometimes the location and body design can make installation and reaching the bolts awkward but it's still pretty easy.
On R18 Civics I may undo the engine mount and jack up the engine as high as I can, for better access.

Wait a second on the washers. I haven't actually done it to ours yet either.

Did this noise start after installing the trans mount?
Noise when turning left?
Check this out: http://www.crvownersclub.com/TSBs/2005/04-005.pdf


Another thought was to pop the hood release (leave hood latched on the safety catch) and see if the noise changes goes away.The rubber hood height adjuster pegs and rubber bumpers sometimes make noises as the hood jiggles.

RIPSAW

My passenger side top engine mount has the side clearance. However, on the above TSB, I can see haw shimming would make since. Guess it could bottom the part down in the pot and not set on the rubber stop.
Been noticing ever now and then, the rear huge door shock will catch about 1/4 open. Never did figure exactly how that shock catch works. I had greased the hinges with white hinge grease and rubbed a dab on the shock rod. Now it's hanging. Shut the door and then next opening it works fine.
Any thoughts on a fix or just replace it with 74825S9AJ01 ??

ezone

I really can't say I remember anyone complaining about that when they bring one to the shop. Usually there are far more pressing issues LOL.

RIPSAW

Fixed the rear door shock by washing rod with WD40. Some how, that little bit of grease made the lock inside that shock hang up too soon.
Adjusted the valves. Exhaust was maybe .0015 to .002 tighter then minimum of.011-.013. Set them .012. The intake was maybe .002 loose from.008-.011. Set them .008. Chain stretch may be about 1/2 degree. With the mark just hitting TDS, the marks may be not exactly pointing at each other. However, really hard to judge and TDC cast arrow is pretty crude. Guides had a little wear but chain was tight. On my 2005, it very hard to see just how far tensioner is out do to metal side panel is so far down. Even with yearly oil changes and mileage averaging out to 9K, engine was clean.
About 6K of that is trips. The rest is city driving. Rarely above 4K rpm but driven pretty snappy by wife. Now I understand why the chain is link. There simple is no room for a roller chain. It sure is small.
Honda's are sure easy to work on compared to some cars. However, that heating pad will be on my back for a couple days...

missmiss76541

I'm having the same problem with my 2007 Civic Si...all of a sudden, wouldn't start, now it will start, but it runs rough, chugging real bad.
Code came up P1009. Someone I trust is coming over tomorrow to run diagnostics on it. It's always been a real smooth motor, how common is it for the Vtec to get stuck on/engaged, and is that due to a faulty solenoid? How can you tell if it's bad?

the last couple weeks it's been louder more of a "waahhhh" sound, and the Vtec is not kicking in at 5500 rpm, but the not starting was all of a sudden. my son said he can't get it to rev over 5000 now.

RIPSAW

Need to urge caution. Sort of like having severe heart attack symptons, not a good idea to go out and run like you are in a race. You could be right about the 5500rpm Vtec but I thought it was lower were it really should come in. Could you actually fill it before. I never drive like that, so I did not know you could fill it. Tell you son to keep it below 3000 till you get it fixed.

How many miles on car? Has it had regular oil and filter changes? What does the oil look like now on stick and when was last oil and filter change?

missmiss76541

The car has about 104K miles. Just did a tune-up, changed the oil, (synthetic), new brakes, within the last month. Maybe 300 miles on the new oil. It looks good. They all told me if you don't run the vtec every so often, you'll lose it. It did kick in right after the tune-up, but the last couple weeks, it didn't kick in. It's not been driveable since Tuesday. I had no choice but to leave it at a shady mechanics on the southside...I say that because after 3 days we went to check on it, he said the "cam sensor" he put on, "but it was gonna be a lot more because of the timing belt and the tensioners were bad"...and my son said show me the old part you took off...so the 2 guys started talking in Spanish, and he threw the $200 deposit at me that he made me pay 3 days earlier, and he said "take your car, I'm not gonna work on it". My son started it and drove it a couple blocks, but it was chugging so bad, we had it towed. It's in front of my house now. I am surprised I got the money back, and so relieved I got my car.

RIPSAW

Good thing you got away from him alive. Your car does not have a belt. However, he could have been referring to a chain that way just as a reference to a non mechanic.
Could be true about not using it and loosing it..My error came only after we had turned car over to our granddaughter. We never drove it that way (maybe the wife did it once in a while but only as a defense necessity) Granddaughter of course drives more aggressive and I think it may have just hung the first time since it has not came back on it. I also know it's not the chain and guides for cam shaft. However, it is slightly off and probably needs the software fix.
If you still have the problem like you say, that is not a good sign.

Anything you read above on ezone's post probably apply, you can trust also totally. My stuff is just opinion. You probably need to pull valve cover and check chain and pulley timing marks to the pointers, plastic tensioners and how far the tensioner is out.

If you plan on keeping car, use Honda only parts. If above looks good, replace the valve and two $5.00 screens on this and the the vtec system. Check on if your car has a software update that dials in more tolerance for error. However, sounds like your car has real error.

missmiss76541

I meant to say timing chain. I knew that. The code P1009 comes up as cam sensor...but that's general, correct? Is it more specific like you said yours was?

RIPSAW

Reread above sine I was still woring on above. P1009 means to me cam is not in correct position to crank referenced from where crank is at TDC mark for crank. It could be real from chain stretch, tensioners, just slightly off from software, the screens stopped up, valve, 2 sensors on end of cams ...this needs to be determined.

On mine, if its just the slight stretch and 1 degree is giving an error, I am tempted to mark my sensors and index them back that much to correct for it.

missmiss76541

There was no warning, no losing power, it just didn't start. We cleaned the screen assembly on the left side, we're leaning more towards the VT solenoid. I don't know, I had battery issues all last summer, my AC quit working August 2015, So he swapped out a couple relays...the one with the snowflake picture, so that one was bad, and I went and got 2 $5 relays and put them in. Ac worked all last summer. Got a new battery in May and it was going dead overnight. Now I own jumper cables, trickle charger, and a jump charger. At least 10 times I would go out and it would be dead. The alternator tested bad, but it was working...I ended up taking the negative off the battery when I got home if I remembered. Now that AC relay was faulty, and Honda put out a Sakuma(?) to replace it, it was $14. Solved the problem. It was the AC clutch getting stuck open or something...it's over on the battery drain thread.

ezone

The very first thing I would do is remove the valve cover and see that at least one of the camshafts is out of time.


If this is verified as "out of time", a timing chain replacement job is the only fix.

Definitely not a job for a rookie/shadetree/hack, there is a lot of engine teardown in a very tight location, very little room to work and lots of places for errors that could end up even more costly later on.

If a chain jumps time, it is a sudden change and will not heal by itself. The very first tooth skipped will set the code (code sets when timing advance target cannot be attained) but most people don't notice a change in performance unless they drive it hard.
Once the timing chain has become worn enough to jump one tooth, it can continue to jump on either or both gears. Again, each time it jumps a tooth on either gear it is a sudden change, eventually it runs extremely poor or not at all.

If mechanical timing is incorrect, then no amount of computer controls can make it right.

I see them do this much earlier than 100k. Cars with a history of infrequent oil service and lack regular checking seem to suffer the most.
Bullpoop.
The answer is close enough it did jump time, but it's a chain not a belt....

At least you got the car back in one piece.

Many times someone unfamiliar and underqualified starts a job like this then about halfway into it they get stuck (or scared) and can't go further....and the owner might end up having to tow it out of there...and find a box of parts laying in the seat which nobody in their right mind will want to try to figure out.







Correct, the code does not say to just replace a cam sensor.

The code is related to phasing (timing). If cam timing advance or retard can't be controlled correctly through the VTC system, the fault code sets.

See first part describing how this happened.

Stop.

Remove valve cover, verify incorrect mechanical timing. At least one of the camshafts will not be aligned correctly.

Improved relay brand is "Mitsuba".

The $5 relays apparently can't handle operating the AC, but they usually do just fine handling stuff like lights and other items around the cars.

missmiss76541

About not using the vtec? I've had 2 people tell me that...use it or it won't work at all...Mitsuba, Sakura...whatever...lol It worked.
So if it's out of time, you can't just re-adjust the timing chain? But if that's it, then that fixes everything? If it's not out of time, then what?