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09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Old 03-22-2012
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09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Hello Folks Please give me some ideas regarding my problem.
Yesterday the engine cut out at stop light, it start up again no problem but when I let go the gas pedal the RPM just drop slowly and cut off no check engine light on at all. When I look under the hood, notice that condensation is building up around the AC pipe (ice), stat the engine up again and it seem to idle fine for about 5 min and then I can see the AC compressor release pressure by itself and the engine cut out. took it to the gas station mechanic and since there is no check engine light on he could not read the code and do the diagnostic and also said that since this model the AC compressor switches and Idle setting are controlled by computer, I will need to take the car to Honda dealer for them to check. Called the dealer and they want $180.00 an hour just to trouble shoot the problem, my car only has 40k miles just out side of the 36k warranty.
Any idea?
Thanks in advance for any help.
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Old 03-22-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Yes, I know what is wrong.

I can at least save you the checkout fee, and that is pretty high. Ours is about 110.



notice that condensation is building up around the AC pipe (ice),
The AC compressor is running...

then I can see the AC compressor release pressure by itself
The radiator fans were NOT running at that time. The valve vented excess pressure because the fans were not on.

and the engine cut out.
The venting happens at almost 500 psi, and it takes quite a bit of engine power to run the compressor at that pressure. Far beyond normal.



----------------------------------------------

This answer has 2 parts:

1) The AC clutch relay is stuck on...
The relay needs replaced. Honda has an improved part to solve this issue, you will need part number 39794-SDA-A05, retails for $25.25 at this moment.
Looks like Majestic will sell it for $18 http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...VIN+Number+---
2) The high pressure relief valve that burped the freon out needs replaced also. Reason: the valve now cannot be trusted to vent at the proper pressure now that it has been opened, and it may leak the rest of the freon out. The freon that was lost during the event needs replaced also. A system that is undercharged is very inefficient, and won't cool properly. It can also wear out the compressor due to lack of oil circulation.
A professional shop should be used for this.

The stuck relay can run the battery down overnight too, that clutch can be about a 1-2 amp drain on the battery.


You will need a competent shop for the AC work, and you can replace the relay yourself if you can figure out which of the dozen is the one that is bad.



took it to the gas station mechanic
I'm biting my tongue here. "Bad move" is all I'll say right now.

since there is no check engine light on he could not read the code and do the diagnostic
Not all problems give codes.

and also said that since this model the AC compressor switches and Idle setting are controlled by computer,
He got this part right. His little code reader is worthless for all of this.

BUT

Even knowing that, there isn't any part of this particular problem that can be diagnosed by any computer. A working brain is what it takes.
Knowing that this is a common problem also helps.







Ok, I didn't find a good ID of the clutch relay, but this is the underhood fusebox:


This is the lid:


The relay is only labeled with a snowflake symbol in the lid.
Center row, bottom relay, closest to the fuse #5 in the top picture.
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Old 03-23-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

ezone.
Thank you very much for the info.
The car stalled again yesterday while the lady was driving it, I had no choice but took it to the Honda Dealer, they want me to do the 36K maintenance at $539.00 and they will check the problem for free. I bit the bullet and agreed to it, picked up the car late afternoon and they said that every thing is working fine, all it needed was the 36K maintenance, computer did not report any other problem, AC compressor is working as they should. The repair advisor said that If it happen again and hopefully the check engine light come on so that they can find out what's wrong with it, but as far as they concern the car is running smoothly. $539.00 for 36K maintenance ouch!
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Old 03-23-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

http://dvpatel.homelinux.com/forumfiles/SN/A110900.PDF Look for the article titled "A/C Problems or a Dead Battery? Check the Compressor Clutch Relay"

Edit: I hope you got the rest of this in your email because I just erased most of it.

Last edited by ezone; 03-23-2012 at 01:24 PM. Reason: Erased a ton of griping.
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Old 03-23-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Ouch is correct, I cannot think of any maintenance item that would remedy a problem such as this one.

Keep us posted.

I love my 8th gen.
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Old 03-27-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Well Folks. The car seems to be running fine for the last couple of days (keep my fingers cross). Maybe while doing the maintenance they cleaned out the throttle sensor? can that be the cause of this problem? Just hope that it will not stall again.
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Old 03-27-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

The stall wasn't the problem, it was a symptom of a different problem. That hasn't been fixed.

See if the AC compressor is running when it shouldn't be.
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Old 03-28-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

No problem so far after a couple hundred miles (I commute 100+ miles each day for work), Ac seems to be blowing cold air when turn on, I don't know how much freon available after a couple of burps few days ago. How do I check it? Is it something that I will have to take it to the dealer to check?
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Old 03-28-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

You (as a user) can't check the freon. All you can do is feel if it is sufficiently cold. If it isn't cold, then you can have something done.



Once again:
Does the compressor still run when it isn't turned on?

The relay problem can be intermittent, if you read the information I linked earlier.
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Old 03-29-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

It feels cold when turn on the AC, with the cold weather we have now, I don't know how much colder or how cold it should be. Looking under the hood when car is on and AC off, only the radiator cooling fan is running not the AC fan, does that mean the compressor is ok?
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Old 03-29-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Originally Posted by Cool_Man View Post
It feels cold when turn on the AC, with the cold weather we have now, I don't know how much colder or how cold it should be.
If your weather is chilly right now, you will probably not notice any issue with the AC unless it is almost completely empty. AC performance is not normally a noticeable issue until the weather is blisteringly hot, then you may notice it doesn't cool well.

The systems have an extremely small capacity and almost no reserve, so any freon loss is usually noticeable as a performance (cooling) loss when the weather is hot.

Looking under the hood when car is on and AC off, only the radiator cooling fan is running not the AC fan, does that mean the compressor is ok?
First, what are you seeing as the difference between the AC fan and the radiator fan? You mean the inside blower fan?

The relief valve burped freon out because the compressor clutch (and therefore the compressor) was engaged when it shouldn't have been. The radiator fans were not running at that time.

The compressor itself is NOT faulty.
The clutch itself is NOT faulty.
The radiator fans are NOT faulty.

The relay is faulty.
The relief valve is compromised now, because of it. (It is supposed to be a one-time-use thing, apparently, according to the service information.)


If you have a radiator fan running in cool weather, then either the AC is still turned on (defogger), or the car has been sitting still and running long enough to need the radiator fan to cool it down.
You would need to look at the compressor clutch and see if it is engaged when it shouldn't be.

Last edited by ezone; 03-29-2012 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 03-29-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

sounds like a sticky IAC motor
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Old 03-29-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Originally Posted by GM FIXER View Post
sounds like a sticky IAC motor
BZZZZT!

(LOL)

There is no IAC.
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Old 05-01-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Hi Folks.
The problem is coming up again, but this time it happen when I was with the car, hopefully you folks can read this thread now since I'm urgently need help now on how to approach this problem. Yesterday afternoon my mom was getting back from work (20 miles away, about 20 mins freeway driving time) park the car for about 1/2 hr and decided to go to the gym, start the car up and immediately the car idle start to drop and and the car shakes and stalled and heard some weird noises under the hood. when I got home (2 hrs later) took the car out for a test and see what happen, drove around for about 2 mile with AC on and everything seems to be normal, drive home and as soon as I got on the drive way before I even have the chance to put it into park it shakes and I can see that the idle is dropping and the engine is a bout to stall, I step on the gas pedal and the engine rev up but then stall right then, at the same time I can hear the compressor burps about 4-5 times (weird noises according to my mom) so I turned the engine off (the check engine light did not come on). This morning while I warm up the car before going to work (about 1 min) I can hear the burps a couple times so I immediately turn off the car (during this time I made sure that the AC is off inside). What should I do now, does it make sense that the AC is somehow running while the AC indicator is not on? does it mean that the AC compressor is bad? AC compressor clutch? or is it the computer that activate the clutch on/off not working? I'm without a car now and desperately need help. Can I pull the AC relay and somehow deactivate the AC so that I can safely drive the car to the shop to have them look at?
Sorry for the long post folks but I want to give as much detail as possible so that you folks can get the sense of problem I'm having. I really do not like to take the car to the dealer, after $500 for the 36K maintenance (they said everything is working fine) and another $120 to to fill up the freon just a week after week after and at that time they said the AC is working fine just need to have the freon refill since the first compressor burp incident :{
Any help is much appreciated.
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Old 05-01-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Hi Folks, me again. Another detail I should mention, a couple of weeks ago before I replace the battery (I have another post regarding this) my mom did mention that even though she did not use the AC but somehow she did feel the cold air coming from the vent just like the when she was using the AC, can the AC run even if the indicator light is not on? Is it the compressor relay somehow stuck in on position which in turn causing the AC to be on when ever the car is running?
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Old 05-01-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Dude, re-read my posts.
I gave you the answer.
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Old 05-01-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Hi Ezone.
I was hoping that you would chime in. I was planning to pull the AC control relay and see if indeed it was the problem . Maybe it's just a coincident, the car would not start, no power or what so ever, completely dead, the new battery was replaced last week and earlier this morning I was able to start the car normally. So I went ahead and disconnect the neg cable from the battery, measure the voltage and it was at around 5.5v, leave it unplug and can see that the voltage gradually going up (measuring across the terminals while the neg terminal is disconnected) , I suspect something is draining the battery. hook up the DVM from neg battery terminal and ground cable I can see the voltage there and that means something is draining the power when it's not suppose to am I correct? I start pulling the relay and fuse one at a time to find out which one is shorted to ground, and could not find any, the only one I was not able to pull was the 30A fuse which labeled something like ABS, it was screwed down to the panel, but some how I was able to loosen it enough so that when I wiggle it around I can see that the voltage dropping to zero on the meter, then that should indicate that there is something wrong with the circuit right? Any Idea ? while at it I removed the 2 relays with the snow flake label (the first one and the last one in that row). Jump start the car and the car start up right away, I'll have to wait til after work to do more trouble shooting. Mean while if you folk have any idea please chime in. I think I'm going nut now.
Thanks
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Old 05-01-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Hi Ezone.
I was hoping that you would chime in.

You may regret it.


I was planning to pull the AC control relay and see if indeed it was the problem .

Why in the hell haven't you already done this?





Maybe it's just a coincident,

The word is "coincidence", and NO, it wasn't.



the car would not start, no power or what so ever, completely dead, the new battery was replaced last week

You probably wasted $100 on a battery the car didn't need.
Dead battery was only a symptom, not the problem.


and earlier this morning I was able to start the car normally.

It is an intermittent problem.


So I went ahead and disconnect the neg cable from the battery, measure the voltage and it was at around 5.5v,

But you were able to start the car? You wouldn't have this voltage if the battery started the car. You had to have this reading when you knew the battery was dead.


leave it unplug and can see that the voltage gradually going up (measuring across the terminals while the neg terminal is disconnected)


Normal reaction.


, I suspect something is draining the battery.


DUH.

EDIT: removed rant.



hook up the DVM from neg battery terminal and ground cable I can see the voltage there and that means something is draining the power when it's not suppose to am I correct?


Absolutely WRONG.
There is a drain, but you are trying to measure it totally wrong.
I already told you there is a drain, what the cause is, and where the damned thing is located.

Go back and read this entire thread.
I know *I* have a reading comprehension problem, but yours is far worse than mine....


I start pulling the relay and fuse one at a time to find out which one is shorted to ground, and could not find any,

You can't find it because you are measuring the wrong thing.


the only one I was not able to pull was the 30A fuse which labeled something like ABS, it was screwed down to the panel, but some how I was able to loosen it enough so that when I wiggle it around I can see that the voltage dropping to zero on the meter, then that should indicate that there is something wrong with the circuit right?


No.





Any Idea ?


You really don't want me to type it out.



while at it I removed the 2 relays with the snow flake label (the first one and the last one in that row).


Holy ****.





Jump start the car and the car start up right away, I'll have to wait til after work to do more trouble shooting.

If my guess was right, it would have taken about 30 seconds out of my brief day to figure out and prove. You have now wasted more than a damned MONTH, and apparently can't be bothered to read and heed the replies I took the time to type out.



Mean while if you ... have any idea please chime in.



You deserve to pay a shop to not find the problem. Again.
Get a few fluids needlessly flushed while the car is there.



I think I'm going nut now.



/Y'all think this reply was bad? You should have seen what I removed.
//No LOL, no smileys.
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Old 05-01-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

ezone, your input is much appreciated as always
This is my mom's car so when it break down hell break loose for me. Please cut me some slack. Last month when the problem first start, I posted for help right away but then before I have the chance to read the reply I had no choice but took it to the dealer to have it look at (money wasted) but after that the problem seems to go away even though the dealer could not find the problem I'd described. Few weeks later the battery was dead she could not start the car, I posted another separate thread regarding the driver side interior light which kill the battery. Read some input and was confirmed that 3 years is about right for the battery to last, just to be on the safe side I replaced the battery also and refil the AC while I was there (the compressor burped couple of time in the first incident). The same problem happened again yesterday that's why I came back to this thread and ask for help again. I was able to start the car early in the morning, but it stalled after about 1 min and I did hear the compressor burp, it was about 5 in the morning so I turn off the car and got a ride to wok (I posted for help at around 6:30 this morning) came home during lunch break and want to replace the relay per your advise, but then found that the battery completely dead (see my second post in the afternoon) and start poking around the fuse box. Btw how do you check for something that is draining the battery? Was my method incorrect? Removing the neg wire from the battery, measure the voltage from the post and negative wire if there is voltage then that should tell you something in the circuit is active right? Anyway the AC relay was replaced ($10.00 part from dealer) since I'd already bought it on the way home. AC clutch goes on and off each time I turn on the AC on and off from the inside switch, could not tell if the air is cold until I recharge the AC this weekend. Metered across the battery terminal with the engine off read 11.98V and with the engine on 13.3V at the current state. Hopefully the car will start up normally tomorrow.
Again, thank you very much for your input.
Mean while if you have any more idea please let me know even if just ranting
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Old 05-01-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

ezone, your input is much appreciated as always

I get frustrated.


Please cut me some slack.


That's not entertaining for me though.



Last month when the problem first start, I posted for help right away but then before I have the chance to read the reply I had no choice but took it to the dealer to have it look at (money wasted) but after that the problem seems to go away even though the dealer could not find the problem I'd described.


A problem would have to be happening before anyone could find it.
If the problem isn't there when checked, and without a solid detailed testimony from a reliable witness, all anyone can do is guess.
With enough storytelling, some good guesses could be made on occasion.



You keep describing some strange A/C behavior among other things, and I am stuck on one answer.




Few weeks later the battery was dead she could not start the car,
I posted another separate thread regarding the driver side interior light which kill the battery.

That was you? Ok.
I don't think I was an *** on that thread.



and refil the AC while I was there


With WHAT?





(the compressor burped couple of time in the first incident).

Elaborate on this.
Details. I can't see what you saw, so describe in detail.
WTF is a "burp"?
What do you see and hear?
What makes you say this?

In your very first post, you said this:
"it seem to idle fine for about 5 min and then I can see the AC compressor release pressure by itself and the engine cut out."

I assume you mean this when you say it "burped"?




The same problem happened again yesterday that's why I came back to this thread and ask for help again. I was able to start the car early in the morning, but it stalled after about 1 min and I did hear the compressor burp,

Still wanna know what the burp is.







Btw how do you check for something that is draining the battery?


Ammeter.

An ammeter that reads milliamps.
An inductive unit is best, that way you don't have to break current by disconnecting a battery cable. That can cause havoc with certain cars and systems.
Your car will have less than 30mA draw after 15 minutes (key out, doors shut) when everything is correct.



Was my method incorrect?

Very. This ain't the 60's.

Removing the neg wire from the battery, measure the voltage from the post and negative wire if there is voltage then that should tell you something in the circuit is active right?

Nope.
Circuits are ALWAYS active when computers are involved.
Even a simple digital clock.


Anyway the AC relay was replaced ($10.00 part from dealer) since I'd already bought it on the way home.


They sold you a black OMRON relay?
(Part #39794-SDA-A03, retails for $5.75. You got hosed, Jack.)
And it is an original problematic relay, not an improved one.

That is NOT the one listed in the bulletin I linked.
It gave the part number and everything, so you wouldn't have had to rely on a flunkie that was asking if "you want fries with that?" a week ago...

The relay in the bulletin retails for $25.25 USD.


Where exactly did you put this relay?

See if you can point out what hole you put it in here:




I'm betting it wasn't the for the AC clutch, since it sure sounds like you still have your original problem.



AC clutch goes on and off each time I turn on the AC on and off from the inside switch,

So it was working at that point in time.
The relay is known to be an intermittent problem.



could not tell if the air is cold until I recharge the AC this weekend.


Why not?
Let it operate for a few minutes.
Is the air coming out of the dash cold?
Does the compressor cycle off and on repeatedly after a few minutes?

If you can't fix the original problem, you are wasting energy on this.

Again: What is this BURP?


Again, thank you very much for your input.


YW.
If you put up with my bitching, I do have useful info now and then. You have to read between the lines though.


Mean while if you have any more idea please let me know even if just ranting

I have an abundance of that.
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Old 05-02-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Ezone.
Enjoyed reading your reply this morning
1- I went to the gas station service shop and have them recharge he AC, they did a complete check, evacuation and recharge, tested to make sure the AC is blowing cold air after they finished.

2- Yes, the "burp" I described was the pressure released from the compressor.
The first time I saw this it was 2 strong jets of air from the compressor while at the gas station and the mechanic recommend to take the car to dealer. (first post), dealer look at the problem and said there was nothing wrong (wasted money for them to do the 36K maintenance).
It happened again (second post for help) but this time I can hear it about 5-6 while I was pulling up on the drive way and the RPM start to drop, engine shake and eventually cut out (the whole thing happen in the matter of seconds), no check engine light, temp gauge indicator is about midway or less. early the next morning I was going to drive it to work and planned to drop it off at the shop but during warm up about less than 1 min I heard that pressure release sound again couple of time, turned off the engine and went to work, planning to come home during lunch and take it to the shop but then when I got home during lunch, found that the battery is drained, could not start the car, While at it I opened the engine fuse box and located the AC relay that you were talking about (#5 in your diagram btw), maybe the relay is intermittent like what you'd said and it was stuck on since the night before which drained the battery, I also saw the other relay (#7 in your diagram) which also has the snow flake picture and defrost (I think), pulled both of them and went to the dealer to get the parts, they sold me the relay according to my VIN # (yes they are the black OMRONn identical to the originals). If they have the updated version why do they still sell me the old ones?
Anyway, after jump start the car and verify the compressor clutch engagement on and off when ever I turn the AC on and off from inside the car accordingly. I had the car idle for about 5 min with AC on at max, could not tell if cold is blowing much (it was bout 65 deg out side at the time), so far so good. This morning while warming up the car I have the defrost on, fan at max speed, standing next to the car I can hear the AC fan cycle on and off like once in a while (like normal I hope). The windshield was defrosting like it should and drove to work and here I'm posting this.
The problem was more than a month in between, I did not replace the relay per your suggestion since after getting the car back from the dealer it seems to work fine.
When I replaced the battery (about 2 weeks ago) I did post another thread for help and from what I'd gathered, the original battery only last about 2-3 years, that's why i went ahead to replace it.
Hopefully it warm up today while I have the car at work so that I can verify the AC operation and see if the air is getting any colder. I'll track down and buy the new improved relays per your suggestion today.
Mean while please keep the rants coming , I deserve it.
Btw, please school me on the car electrical system, I have electronic and technical back ground plus the necessary meters and not afraid to mess around under the hood, I would like very much to work on my own car.
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Old 05-02-2012
  #22  
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Enjoyed reading your reply this morning

Don't read this crap before I've had my coffee.



1- I went to the gas station service shop and have them recharge he AC, they did a complete check, evacuation and recharge, tested to make sure the AC is blowing cold air after they finished.

Getting it recharged without first
A) fixing the original problem, and
B) replacing the pressure relief valve
may be just wasted effort and money.
I believe I explained this before. I'm not going back to look for it.

2- Yes, the "burp" I described was the pressure released from the compressor.

The first time I saw this it was 2 strong jets of air from the compressor while at the gas station and the mechanic recommend to take the car to dealer. (first post), dealer look at the problem and said there was nothing wrong (wasted money for them to do the 36K maintenance).
It happened again (second post for help) but this time I can hear it about 5-6 while I was pulling up on the drive way and the RPM start to drop, engine shake and eventually cut out (the whole thing happen in the matter of seconds),

All this describes what happens when the compressor clutch relay is stuck on.
Including killing the battery in a few hours.
The relief valve vented excess pressure, because the compressor was running without the fans on.






but during warm up about less than 1 min I heard that pressure release sound again couple of time,
turned off the engine and went to work, planning to come home during lunch and take it to the shop but then when I got home during lunch, found that the battery is drained, could not start the car,

This sure still describes the clutch relay stuck on.



While at it I opened the engine fuse box and located the AC relay that you were talking about (#5 in your diagram btw), maybe the relay is intermittent like what you'd said and it was stuck on since the night before which drained the battery, I also saw the other relay (#7 in your diagram) which also has the snow flake picture and defrost (I think),


OMFG the parts diagram is labeled completely different from the wiring diagram. Crap.
I hate when different departments can't get their poop coordinated.
OK.
5 is the compressor clutch relay
7 is the condensor fan relay (passenger side radiator fan)


pulled both of them and went to the dealer to get the parts, they sold me the relay according to my VIN # (yes they are the black OMRONn identical to the originals). If they have the updated version why do they still sell me the old ones?


Because the same relay is used for about 50 other things.
The contacts tend to weld themselves together when that relay is used for the AC clutch.
It works just fine for most of the other places it is used.

Parts people rarely ever are aware of the stuff that goes on in the service department. All they do is sell parts. Nobody has to tell them there are improved parts, and they don't care to know most of the time.
This is exactly why I linked the info with the new part number. I don't do this crap for my health.

The catalog lists both relays, the original one is listed first.

Kinda like trusting the parts jockeys that work at AutoZone. If you trust their "diagnosis", you deserve everything you get.


Anyway, after jump start the car and verify the compressor clutch engagement on and off when ever I turn the AC on and off from inside the car accordingly. I had the car idle for about 5 min with AC on at max, could not tell if cold is blowing much (it was bout 65 deg out side at the time), so far so good. This morning while warming up the car I have the defrost on, fan at max speed, standing next to the car I can hear the AC fan cycle on and off like once in a while (like normal I hope). The windshield was defrosting like it should and drove to work and here I'm posting this.
The problem was more than a month in between, I did not replace the relay per your suggestion since after getting the car back from the dealer it seems to work fine.

Bla bla bla.....


Do you know what "intermittent" means?
It (stuck relay) can release by tapping on it when it sticks. Slamming a door is enough to make it release sometimes too. The problem goes away.

When I replaced the battery (about 2 weeks ago) I did post another thread for help and from what I'd gathered, the original battery only last about 2-3 years, that's why i went ahead to replace it.
Hopefully it warm up today while I have the car at work so that I can

verify the AC operation and see if the air is getting any colder.

Up above, you said that it was cycling while on defog. That means it is getting down to 36*F in the evaporator. Plenty cold enough for the moment.

I'll track down and buy the new improved relays per your suggestion today.



Back to the car:
Run it with the HVAC completely shut off, blower fan and everything shut OFF.
Is the compressor (clutch) turning?
Are the radiator fans running?


Now turn the AC and the blower on.
Is the compressor (clutch) turning?
Are the radiator fans running?


The radiator fans should always run when the compressor runs.
If they don't, it is a big problem. This is when the system will vent excess pressure (450+PSI the first time, and lower after that. This is why the relief valve is supposed to be replaced.)
The fans have to run in order to keep pressures from going sky high.
Everything you have written makes me think this is what is going on with your car.


Mean while please keep the rants coming , I deserve it.

Depends on my mood, daily stress level, whether or not I think someone can't comprehend, etc.

Not right now.


Btw, please school me on the car electrical system, I have electronic and technical back ground plus the necessary meters and not afraid to mess around under the hood, I would like very much to work on my own car.
I can't condense 30+ years into a crash course.
I've been dinking with wires almost all of my life. I was in about 2nd grade when my dad got me one of those 101 electric project kits, I was building electromagnet, buzzer, relay, winding my own electric motor, etc.
Radios by 4th grade.
Radio Shack was my toy store (literally!).

I can't even explain how I think when it comes to electricity.

Google?
The common 12v stuff is one area to learn/know, both low and high amperage.
Computer controls are mostly based on 5v, like lots of other consumer computer stuff.
OTOH, techniques can be applied in almost all areas of electricity, once learned.

Electricity is sorta like the "final frontier" for most mechanics. Electronics is far worse, and computers are OMFG RUN AWAY.
It's treated like some kind of black art voodoo, because an easy 85% of the people in this trade have no understanding of it.

At my first real wrenching job, the boss called me "Fusebox".



/I don't feel like sifting through all of this post again. Tell me if I missed anything.

Last edited by ezone; 05-02-2012 at 08:25 PM. Reason: I love to edit. I do it for kicks.
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Old 05-03-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Ok here's what I got, so far so good for the last 2 days drive to work and back 40+ miles each day.
Ezone.
with HVAC off, interior fan off
AC clutch not running
radiator fan not running yet (still cold)


turned on AC and blower
AC clutch running
both fans run
turned off AC
both fan go off (engine still not warming up yet)

while I was at it
turned on DEF
AC clutch on, both fan cycle on /off at the same time every few sec.

turned off DEF
AC clutch off, both fans off (still not warm up yet)

Normal right?
New relays are on the way, btw the part # you gave has been around and used on Honda Accord and Acura since 06.
When I order the AC clutch relays and said it was for 09 Civic they gave me the old part # and insisted that those are the right parts. I asked for the part # you gave and they said it only used on Accord and Acura, but sell them to me anyway since I asked for that specific part.

AC does take awhile to cool, maybe I need to have it recharge since the compressor released most of the refrigerant ?
I did ask the sale person regarding the relief valve on the compressor and he said that it is not necessary to replace it.
Should I replace it before recharging the AC?
Is it easy to replace?
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Old 05-03-2012
  #24  
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop


with HVAC off, interior fan off
AC clutch not running
radiator fan not running yet (still cold)

Correct.

turned on AC and blower
AC clutch running
both fans run
turned off AC
both fan go off (engine still not warming up yet)

Correct.


while I was at it
turned on DEF
AC clutch on, both fan cycle on /off at the same time every few sec.


Correct. AC runs during defrost.



turned off DEF
AC clutch off, both fans off (still not warm up yet)


Normal right?

So far, so good.



New relays are on the way,

Plural? You only needed one.

btw the part # you gave has been around and used on Honda Accord and Acura since 06.

I know.

It is used in other places on the cars, but it was not used for the AC clutch on most. The bulletin covers 14 years of cars, various models.

When you get yours, you will probably find at least one more like it in the fusebox. It is brown, and says (I THINK) Mitsuba on top. Don't quote me on that, I'd have to look in the parts department for sure.

When I order the AC clutch relays and said it was for 09 Civic they gave me the old part # and insisted that those are the right parts.


Do you want fries with that?


The one you need is listed immediately below the relay they sold you, but it is listed as being only for a Japan built car.

The bulletin trumps the parts catalog in this case.


I asked for the part # you gave and they said it only used on Accord and Acura, but sell them to me anyway since I asked for that specific part.


Do you want fries with that?





Print the bulletin I linked and take it to them.
If you care.
You cannot help them though.


AC does take awhile to cool, maybe I need to have it recharge since the compressor released most of the refrigerant ?

Has it "burped" since it got recharged?
I hope your AC person replenished some PAG oil into the system with the recharge.
What is the temperature coming out of the dash vents?
What is the temperature coming out of the vents when the compressor cycles off and on?

From an earlier post: you said that it was cycling while on defog. That means it is getting down to 36*F in the evaporator. Plenty cold enough for the moment.


I did ask the sale person regarding the relief valve on the compressor and he said that it is not necessary to replace it.

Do you want fries with that?
(See a pattern here yet?)




THIS IS SPELLED OUT IN THE BULLETIN.
READ IT.
(Didn't I already make a rude comment about your reading comprehension? Yeah, I did.)


Your dealer staffs the parts department with minimum wage flunkies.
They don't fix cars, they sell parts.
ALL they know is what the catalog tells them.
Remember this for future reference.

Should I replace it before recharging the AC?

Is it easy to replace?

Yes, but the freon must be recovered out (completely empty) before it can be safely removed.

It screws in to the side of the compressor.
Part #1 in this link here: http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...%29+%281.8L%29


HTH
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Old 05-04-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

II have not recharge the AC since the incident on Monday, the car seems to be running fine the last few days with AC on.
Question, with the last AC recharge, the mechanic only hook up a machine with couple of gauges and do a full evac and recharge, do I have to ask and make sure the mechanic refill the PAG oil? or is it already part of the recharging process?
Since you said the freon must be completely empty before the relief valve can be safely removed, should I order one and ask the mechanic to replace it while doing the AC recharge?

Thank you very much your input.
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Originally Posted by Cool_Man View Post
II have not recharge the AC since the incident on Monday, the car seems to be running fine the last few days with AC on.
Question, with the last AC recharge, the mechanic only hook up a machine with couple of gauges and do a full evac and recharge, do I have to ask and make sure the mechanic refill the PAG oil? or is it already part of the recharging process?
Since you said the freon must be completely empty before the relief valve can be safely removed, should I order one and ask the mechanic to replace it while doing the AC recharge?

Thank you very much your input.

Correction to an earlier post: New relay is black, not brown. At least the one in my hand that is about to go in this Odyssey is black and says Mitsuba on top.


Yes, ask/remind about oil.
I have no clue what you are dealing with (or maybe I do!)
You want fries with that?

The mechanic needs to remove the freon before the valve can be safely replaced.
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Old 05-18-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

This thread was great.
I had a similar issue, so I changed the relay as directed.... cleaned up my problem with idle etc. My battery had died one afternoon after I parked it for about 40 minutes -Needed a jump and then confirmed the alt was charging it.
This thread explained a lot- as i would not have figured that was a possible cause.
So far the AC has been blowing cold, but I have not had an outside air temp too high or a really humid day since- I have to keep an eye on it.

I did not see any oil residue aroung the relief valve - so I am not sure it purged. Could have happened, or mabe not.

I spent about $19 on the relay- and 2 minutes under the hood and I hope I saved myself a few bucks in the process, and learned a few things.
Thanks to ezone!
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Old 09-12-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Thanks ezone, great info. I had the rough idle, occasional stall and I heard some pressure relief about 4 times! I changed the a/c clutch relay which I paid less than $7 for and the rough idle and stalling was resolved. I also had to have my a/c recharged for $110. I figure you saved me at least $150. My 09 Civic has 36k miles. Thanks again.
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Old 09-12-2012
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Originally Posted by MathHelper View Post
Thanks ezone, great info. I had the rough idle, occasional stall and I heard some pressure relief about 4 times! I changed the a/c clutch relay which I paid less than $7 for and the rough idle and stalling was resolved. I also had to have my a/c recharged for $110. I figure you saved me at least $150. My 09 Civic has 36k miles. Thanks again.
$7 for a relay? Must be an original OMRON, not the updated MITSUBA which has an MSRP of $25.25 (Hondas price), last time I looked.

Last edited by ezone; 03-07-2015 at 03:23 PM. Reason: OMRON name
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Re: 09 Civic LX sedan, rough idle and stalled at stop

Having the same issue as well with the dead battery as well. Gonna try and see if the AC relay is working and the compressor is not engaged. Initially the car died yesterday and took it to AutoZone and the girl checked my battery and said it was fine. And she checked for any codes but there was none. So I tried to start the car this morning and it was dead. So I took the battery in and the said it was dead but ok. But I got a new battery, got home, hooked it up and 5 mins in the system purged and the car was rough idling, I turned it off and disconnected the battery. Gonna check the relay now. Thanks for this thread!
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