SpdySylvrEX

I wonder what happened to "all the idiot lights flashing like a Christmas tree in Times Square" that made me think ignition switch??

Or was that a different car and thread?[/QUOTE]
Same car, same guy...
During the multiple tests i was doing, one called for me to check continuity on all different positions of the ignition switch. Going to the Fuse Box, from ignition, all was good. Where do these wires go in relation to this magical relay? I didn't think ignition because the "clicking" only happened when the key hit the "II" position, not as I was turning the key. But, if you think it may be a worthy test, then just tell me what to do. Is there a way to simply clean any contacts?

ezone

IF *I* didn't already know what a bad ignition switch acted like (they are real obvious after you have seen a few):
*I* would tie a test light to the circuit in question, either right at the ignition harness or at any of the half dozen or so fuses that are fed by the circuit in question. Then wait for it to act up and see what the test light does.

Didn't I name off the colors of the wire and all the fuses that you could use for the test in the other thread?

If the ignition switch turns out to be the problem, it gets replaced.

SpdySylvrEX

Okay, well there's the whole waiting thing again. I am not very good at that...Anyhow, If I get any time to look at the car again, I will get the :cel: read and we can look at whatever that is...

ezone

Something else to think about: Whether or not any codes are part of the symptom, and not a problem by themselves.

Wait and cross that bridge when you get to it.

SpdySylvrEX

agreed.
Here's an idea. How bout you come down to Florida, it's been in the 70's and 80's almost all winter. We can go and I will buy you some Then we can work on Estella. Problems solved...

ezone

You wouldn't want me working on it after drinking, no effin way.

Thanx for the offer, but....
Sorry man, I quit drinking a little over 3 years ago.
I used to drink a lot.
I banked the money when I quit.
With some of the money I saved from not drinking, I stroked a check for my new brand new Civic. Didn't blink an eye when I wrote the check. And still had 5 figures in that checking account. Next biggie is paying off the house, and I can do that right now too.

I'd love to ride the scoot down there, just to go. I'd probably get myself killed doing it. Probably in the Smokies. LOL

SpdySylvrEX

That's cool man...

SpdySylvrEX

okay. New game. Today I had a friend come over and I got a Code scanner. codes were high Volt O2 sensor Bank 1, Idle control circuit malfunction (or something like that). Anyhow, nothing new to me. I did tests according to the manual I have and both of them pointed to "replacing the ECU with a known good one and seeing if problem persists". However, the car was not surging, and the AFR was right about 10:1 or so at idle and in the 12's at about 3000 RPM. The 3K RPM was per the instructions of the manual I have to test the O2 sensor.

Anyhow, I was messing around with the fuse/Relay Box under the steering column when I heard the "clicking relay" again. I was able to narrow the source of the "clicking relay" to the actual box under the steering column itself. I touched a relay on the box and the clicking continued. I removed said relay and the 'clicking" continued when I touched other relays. This lead me to believe there was something loose inside the box. I then marked all the connectors and removed the box. I was able to get the box out and take it apart and I did not see any significant burn marks like I thought I would, even on the circuit board itself. I put it back together and I am going to install it tomorrow and see what I get. Maybe when I put it all back together, the prongs, (which hold all the plastics tight) were able to be set back properly. So, I think I have narrowed down the source and will keep looking for the "root" problem.

Also: We were trying to find continuity between the wires from the relay back to the box under the steering column. There are 2 black/white wires that go to the relay. There are 2 black/white wires that come from the box under the dash. However, there was no continuity between these 2. (even with the relay closed or not in at all) Yes, we took the cover off and physically looked at the contacts to see when it was open or not. The 2 wires from the relay go directly into a loom and then it looks like they go to the box.

The said wires on the relay side did get continuity from a bigger white/black wire, that went to the box under the steering column. If someone can explain this phenomenon, please do.

I think that covers it all.....I think....

oh, said relay is the #1. The one with 4 prongs.

ezone

This lead me to believe there was something loose inside the box.

Or loose wires?
No longer suspecting a main relay problem, since they are behind the glovebox?

We were trying to find continuity between the wires from the relay back to the box under the steering column. There are 2 black/white wires that go to the relay.

What relay? Man, I'm going to need real pics if I can't get a clear picture from your descriptions.

Or you need a real factory wiring diagram book, complete with pictures and everything.


Maybe an Aftermarket alarm? Got pics?

-------------------------------------------

What code numbers? I need actual numbers, not some interpretation of them.
Was it an output code, or a heater code? I'll assume it wasn't a heater code for the moment.
10:1 and 12:1 are extremely rich for a stock PCM trying to control fuel delivery. That would cause high voltage codes, and I would imagine the piggyback is supposed to mask or modify the actual values. Maybe your piggyback isn't able to do that right now.

"Idle control circuit malfunction" could be electrical....or might be because the piggyback can't mask the issue?
Just guessing.

SpdySylvrEX

I am going to just use this post to help myself help (insert name here). This initial post was more or less a brain dump.

Codes: P0132, and P0505. Both codes I have seen before, nothing new to me. I did some tests according to the manual I have and both of them ended with the test saying;
"replace the ECU with a known good one and see if problem
persists".

However, the car was not surging, and the AFR was right about 10:1 or so at cold idle and in the 12's at about 3000 RPM. The test procedure was to hold the RPM @ 3K until the radiator fans came on, then start the test. completed the test with said results above.


I started messing around with the "fuse" Box, (the one under the steering column) when I heard the "clicking relay" again. The relay that was clicking was the one with 4 prongs and is located behind the glove box. I believe it's the #1 PG-FMI relay. (mine is brown)

I know that seems confusing, but let me try my best to describe it better;
If I tapped a relay in the fuse box, or shook the fuse box, or jiggled wires attached to the fuse box, the relay behind the glove box would "click". The clicking seemed to happen more excessively when I tapped on any relay in the fuse box, than when I just jiggled wires or shook the fuse box.

I removed the relay I was tapping on but the 'clicking" continued when I touched any other relays. This lead me to believe there was something loose inside the fuse box.

I then marked all the connectors and removed the box. I was able to get the fuse box out and take it apart and I did not see any significant burn marks like I thought I would, even on the circuit board itself. I put it back together and I am going to install it tomorrow and see what I get. Maybe when I put it all back together, the female pins, (which hold all the plastics tight) were able to be set back properly.

The wires on the #1 PGF-MI relay side did get continuity from a bigger white/black wire, that came from the fuse box under the steering column.
I did not think to check continuity on those wires while doing the "shake test" until now.

I think that covers it all.....I think....

ezone

Here are some more thoughts for ya....

You following the book and holding the RPM at 3k is not simulating the conditions the code set under. All the RPM does is heat up the sensor and get the engine to operating temps.

Does your scan tool give Freeze Frame data? This is used to see the conditions the code set under, and used to simulate the running conditions to attempt to recreate the code.


A C&P:
"The ECM/PCM monitors the primary HO2S output voltage during deceleration after the zirconia element reaches its operating temperature. If the primary HO2S output voltage stays at high range, a malfunction is detected and a DTC is stored."
Threshold: The primary HO2S output voltage is 0.51 V or more for no more than 5 seconds.

SO for this code (P0132) the sensor output is checked while the engine is decelerating with a closed throttle. (Does your freeze frame data agree here???????) The fuel injectors are supposed to be turned OFF during a deceleration event, so the PCM knows the O2 sensor is supposed to be at 0.0 volts during this condition.
(If the piggyback were controlling fuel during this time and condition, I can see why the PCM would set the code. I have no way of knowing what your piggyback is programed to do though.) This here is a big problem I have, I have no clue how your extra controller is programmed.

Here is something else that can happen with a Zirconia type sensor, and you won't find it in any service information that I know of:
The sensing thimble can crack and let the sensor output voltage go inverse. That means negative voltage output instead of positive voltage. The PCM probably can't detect that if it were to happen, the A/D converter inside the circuit would convert to a positive number and the PCM would continue to attempt to operate using that as a valid value for the sensor.
The few sensors I have seen with this condition only acted up very intermittently. This info may be of absolutely no value to you or the car.

The P0505 is merely meaning the PCM couldn't control the idle speed within its programmed parameters for 20 seconds or more. Either too high or too low.
-------------------------------------------------------

Enough of this crap. You need to get to the bottom of the relay clicking first. Then worry about the codes and stuff afterwards.
---------------------------------------------------

I think I am following the fusebox and relay thing now. Thanks.

-----------------------------------------------------


The wires on the #1 PGF-MI relay side did get continuity from a bigger white/black wire, that came from the fuse box under the steering column.
I did not think to check continuity on those wires while doing the "shake test" until now.

Ummmmmmmmm my info says the main relays are blue, if I'm lookin at the right diagram.

I better check your car info again: US car, 4 door, LX, 2001?

Good plan on the shake test.This is a valid method.Concentrate on small areas though, wiggle small sections at at time to isolate.

The wht/blk wire that is attached to 2 terminals of the PGMFI main relay #1 come from fuse#6 in the underhood fusebox, not the dash fusebox. The wires may run near it through harnesses, and there is a large harness connector (C-451) in the center console area.

So you may be on to something here.

BUT you need to be testing right at that main relay to see what wire is really causing the clicking. It sucks going in a wrong direction.
Then make a plan to chase it.

And: Continuity (ohm) testing is still useless. Use a voltmeter, use a test light, use a Dual LED test light for polarity checking. Lights are faster to watch.
Connect for the test, wait for it to act up, check for any results when it does act up. You know it clicks, keep checking until you get the result.

SpdySylvrEX

Yes. I will try to figure out how to do it.

Would that explain the 12v I was reading at the O2 sensor connection during my test?
According to the test procedure, I was supposed to be testing the "output voltage" on the O2 sensor, but I did not know what wires were the output. So I just tested them all. The only one that did not show More than .9v was the ground (green/Yellow I believe). Everything else was 12v or more.
The code comes on while the car is simply idling. I will check with the freeze frame data, if I can figure out how to.
crack as in break? The sensor is brand new, so I doubt it is....

The idle was at 1200 or so. It may be because the TB is off of an automatic. However, the idle will sit between 750-800 like it's supposed to on occasion. I didn't think it made a difference for a manual. I thought I had a problem with my previous one and it was all the junkyard had.
I think I may have. I put the "fuse box" back in and I tried incredibly hard to make it act up again. It wouldn't....I shook it like; (insert your own analogy here)

Thank goodness...
2001, 2 door, EX...
Relays behind glove box: one blue (5 prong) one brown (4 Prong This is the one the white/black wires are going to).
This is where the white/black wire splits into 2 wires?

I know you said continuity tests are pointless, but why do I have continuity between the white/black wire from this fuse box. [ATTACH]fusebox[/ATTACH] From this wire to the 2 wires on the #1 PGM-FI Relay, I have continuity. I hope the pic is good enough. The connector (if you number the connectors in the box from right to left, top to bottom) is 11C (C being third wire from the left in the connector). I know the Honda schematics will have their own number but I don't know what it is. [IMG]fusebox[/IMG]

I think that covers it all...

ezone

the 12v I was reading at the O2 sensor connection during my test?
You checked something wrong or your sensor is wired wrong, or something.
Where are your wiring diagrams?

The heater circuit is fed battery voltage and ground on 2 of the wires.
The sensor portion itself uses a ground and a signal output on the other 2 wires. There may be a bias voltage applied to the sensor output wire by the PCM for diagnostic purposes. Probably 5v if anything.

An O2 sensor that is operating will output a voltage of between 0 and 1 volts, and it will be fluctuating somewhat rapidly if the PCM is in control of the fuel.

Remember, I check everything LIVE and OPERATING.



Now......C&P

Check the primary HO2S (Sensor 1) output voltage with the HDS or a scan tool.
Is there 0.9 V or more?

What is important here is knowing the values that the PCM sees.
In a datalist.
Testing with a voltmeter may lead you astray, 1) because you don't even know what wire is which, and 2) the possibility of a floating ground within the PCM. The sensor ground that originates within the PCM doesn't have to be the same as the battery ground.
And the PCM depends on proper external grounds to make this all work right.
You would need to be attaching your meter to the ground and signal wires of the sensor connector, not using ground from the battery. This should match what is displayed on the scanner datalist.


OK, the sensor itself has 2 white wires, and a gray and a black.
The black is the sensor output, and should mate to a white wire in the cars harness.
The gray is the sensor ground, and mates to a green/yellow in the cars harness.

You need wiring diagrams.



---------------------------------------------


Throttle body: DX is different from everything else, and AT/MT/CVT makes a difference for all choices, but that MIGHT only be because the IAC is different. Parts diagram doesn't tell any more than that.


I think I may have. I put the "fuse box" back in and I tried incredibly hard to make it act up again. It wouldn't..

Don't look away yet. I'd still be attaching test equipment at the relay and waiting to catch it in the act.

--------------------------------
Main relay #1 is 4 wires, and says it is supposed to be blue.
The relay could have 5 pins, but only 4 are used.
Same for main #2, the fuel pump relay.
The only way to know for sure is to go by wiring colors in the socket.

You need accurate wiring diagrams. Period.

-----------------------------------------

My diagram doesn't show where the splices are. Only that it is between the relay socket and the harness connector C-451. Probably close to the relay though, but I can't say for sure.

--------------------------------------------
but why do I have continuity between the white/black wire from this fuse box. [ATTACH]fusebox[/ATTACH] From this wire to the 2 wires on the #1 PGM-FI Relay,

Because they are probably both a "12v all the time" power source, so they share the battery positive circuits all over the car as a common point. You could find this all over the car. Doesn't mean much by itself.

I would need more info about the fusebox connector to verify that theory. But it is probably irrelevant.

Here we go again, a wiring diagram is what you need.

SpdySylvrEX

ok, so I figured out how to view the freeze data on my scanner and this is what I got today after fueling up and resetting the codes. I did find out that if I put some kind of fuel cleaner in it helps with the surging idle. I am going to just type what the screen on the scanner says; abbreviations and all. I hope there is someone out there who understands it, cause I sure don't.

Troub Code: P0132
ABSLT TPS (%) 8.2
ENG SPEED (RPM) 1151
CALC LOAD (%) 32.2
MAP ("HG) 9.4
COOLANT 205*F
IAT 93*F
ST FTRM1 (%) 0.0
LT FTRM1 (%) 0.0
FUEL SYS 1 OPEN
FUEL SYS 2 N/A

This is all the freeze frame data shows so I hope someone can read it and understand it.
I don't know if it helps but I remember watching the scan tool and it could read the o2 sensor voltage which was 1.275 when the CEL came on.

ezone

A breakdown for you


Troub Code: P0132
ABSLT TPS (%) 8.2
ENG SPEED (RPM) 1151
CALC LOAD (%) 32.2
MAP ("HG) 9.4
COOLANT 205*F
IAT 93*F
ST FTRM1 (%) 0.0
LT FTRM1 (%) 0.0
FUEL SYS 1 OPEN
FUEL SYS 2 N/A

o2 sensor voltage which was 1.275 when the CEL came on.
This is too effin high for a warmed up engine.

Code number the FF data was stored for.
Throttle position, in %. I prefer it in volts, but you probably don't have any way to change this reading.
RPM (too high for an idle speed)
Load, you wouldn't have much use for...
MAP is engine vaccuum, I prefer this in volts also.
Coolant temp
Intake air temp
STFT is short term fuel trim, or small corrections to the base fuel calculation by the PCM
LTFT is long term fuel trim, It is sort of like an accumulation of short term corrections in one directions.
Fuel Sys1 is bank one, the engine has only one bank in this case so there is no bank 2.
OPEN is open loop, the computer is not making corrections to the fuel calculation. It is commanding injection based strictly on the preprogrammed fuel map with no corrections.

What I see is the #1 O2v is far too high, the PCM has probably tried to lean out the fuel as far as it can go, and it was unable to make any change in the O2 voltage. (It uses the O2 sensor to judge fuel trim calcs.) It reverted to open loop after it decided it could not cause any change in the O2 voltage no matter how much it tried to alter the fuel amount injected. It set the code once this happened.

I bet this thing was "loping" up to the point that it set the code.

This has the initial appearances of a bad O2 sensor, normal operating range of a working O2 is 0.0-1.0v, and yours is too high regardless of the fuel mixture. OR there is something seriously wrong with wiring (grounds???) or the computer(s).
THIS is why I would eliminate the piggyback from the equation!!

I can't tell the throttle position, I'm used to seeing it as volts. Should be .49v with a closed throttle. I'm thinking 8% is closed throttle though, on a 0 to 50 scale since .5v would be 10%....

I would be interested in seeing if any other sensors are skewed high in the datalist.
I would be inspecting any sensors reading funny -- for 5v and ground, the measured output values, and then comparing those to the datalist displayed on a scanner.

SpdySylvrEX

Alright, so here is the test I just completed. I took ezones "hint" to not run the car at 3k rpm until warm. (Plus the fact that she was still warm from the drive home). anyhow, here is the test.

DTC P0132: Primary HO2S (Sensor 1) Circuit High Voltage

Reset the ECM/PCM (see page 11-4). Yep....

Start the engine. Hold the engine at 3,000 rpm (min-1) with no load (in Park or neutral) until the radiator fan comes on. ---- Did not bother with this, the car was pretty warm already.

Check the primary HO2S (Sensor 1) output voltage with the scan tool.
Does the voltage stay at 0.9 V or more?
I did this with my voltmeter. I measured the 2 wires you spoke about ezone. I also looked at my diagram and they looked like the ones. (1) white and (1) green/yellow wires

YES ------Check 2.2v
- Go to step 4.

NO
- Intermittent failure, system is OK at this time. Check for poor connections or loose wires at the primary HO2S (Sensor 1) and at the ECM/PCM.



Turn the ignition switch OFF.
Disconnect the primary HO2S (Sensor 1) 4P connector.
Connect the primary HO2S (Sensor 1) 4P connector terminals No. 1 and No. 2 with a jumper wire. yep....

Turn the ignition switch ON (II).
Check the primary HO2S (Sensor 1) output voltage with the scan tool.
Is there 0.9 V or more?
-----while doing this test, I actually connected and disconnected the jumper wire multiple times and watched the volt meter. it went from 2.2v ---> 0.0v with the jumper wire on
YES
- Go to step 9.

NO
- Replace the primary HO2S (Sensor 1). This sensor is brand new and this code has been there since the day I installed the sensor



Could my sensor be to close to the turbo outlet and therefore the element is being burned up? or messed up in some way?

Or could it be: when the car was initially tuned on the DYNO, it had a vac leak on one injector (which I did not know about at the time). The boost would only hit 5.5 instead of the 6 it was supposed to (because of the vac leak). so it was actually losing air...(less air less fuel)

Now that the vac leak is fixed, there is more air and so the ECU knows it needs more fuel. But it can't give more fuel because the "piggy back" doesn't listen to the ECU!!!

does that make any sense? it does to me....

ezone

A big problem I have with putting any serious value in these tests is we don't have the other problem (main relay clicking away) corrected or diagnosed yet.
I'll go ahead and put down my thoughts about the questions, but I think the first problem needs solved first.

---------------------------------------------------
Check the primary HO2S (Sensor 1) output voltage with the scan tool.
Does the voltage stay at 0.9 V or more?
I did this with my voltmeter. I measured the 2 wires you spoke about ezone. I also looked at my diagram and they looked like the ones. (1) white and (1) green/yellow wires

YES ------Check 2.2v'


Ok, this is too high for a hot sensor. Makes me wonder if it is not hot enough.
Is the heater circuit working? It should have a power and ground on the other 2 wires.

Wait up, it should code for the heater if it wasn't working. (With a normal PCM.)


Next part of the test:


Turn the ignition switch ON (II).
Check the primary HO2S (Sensor 1) output voltage with the scan tool.
Is there 0.9 V or more?
-----while doing this test, I actually connected and disconnected the jumper wire multiple times and watched the volt meter. it went from 2.2v ---> 0.0v with the jumper wire on

Problem: We need to know what the computer is seeing, not the voltmeter. You are reading the 2.2v bias voltage applied to the sensor output wire from the computer, but I think it should be around 3v, not 2.2v. I would have to double check this idea against a known-good car, and that isn't possible for me right now.
You have any buddies--- with the same car that is unmodified--- that you can use to compare?

If your scantool can display freeze frame data, see if you can get a regular live data list and repeat this test.

Then disconnect the piggyback and retry the same test.





This sensor is brand new and this code has been there since the day I installed the sensor

Was this code or the same problem already there before replacing this sensor?
Wouldn't be the first time I have seen a bad one right out of the box....all it takes is someone dropping it on the floor!

Is this an NTK sensor??




Could my sensor be to close to the turbo outlet and therefore the element is being burned up? or messed up in some way?

No, it has to reach nearly 800-1000 deg to operate. Some factory turbo cars have the O2 right in the outlet housing on the turbo. Should be fine.





(less air less fuel)
Ummm, depends on the fuel injection type. Is this using MAP only (speed-density)?
And if it had only been programmed to run up to 5.5psi, then it could starve at higher pressures. Are you using an EGT sensor? It would go really hot if it goes too lean under boost. I think you are supposed to keep it rich enough for EGT to stay under 1000 degrees, but you ought to check with someone that deals with turbo cars on a regular basis.

SpdySylvrEX

My head hurts......

SpdySylvrEX

It did throw that code before for "heater circuit" (something or other). I replaced that sensor with the sensor I have now.
The problem could have been from the wires getting all mixed up after they got ripped out (don't ask) and I tried to put them back in. I replaced the whole connector and new o2 sensor. (my set-up now)

tested your theory on the heater circuit anyway...one heater wire, when tested to the ground in the connector (green/yellow), read 13v, (car running)....the other 13v (car running) could not get a reading with just the 2 heater wires on their own.

Next part of the test:

no unfortunately

Live data shows: O2S11 (v) 1.275
Scanner shows: 2.2v
don't know if the car would respond without the piggy back....I will try when I have more time to put the car in "charlie status"
Nope, Bosch

ezone

AND NOW YOU HAVE THIS NEW CODE!
Hear me now, believe me later:
Throw away the bosch sensor. Seriously. Throw it away.


Heater failures are real common with the OE sensor.
Get the correct NTK sensor.
36531-PLR-A01 $86 list, and you can get it cheaper than that.

Ummmm......P0135 code, O2 heater circuit:
Heater resistance 3.0-3.6 ohms.

Malfunction Threshold
The current is 0.37 A or less, or 6.0 A or more for at least 5 seconds when the heater is on.



The PCM must see that the heater part of it is correct since it isn't setting heater codes.... Maybe it only runs the heater when the sensor is cold....
The PCM check is to unplug the sensor, turn the key to ON (do not start it) and there should be 12v measured on the 2 heater wires for the first 5 seconds after the key is turned on.

But I bet it works when conditions are right. Otherwise it would still be setting heater codes.


Damn.


You mean voltmeter? Scanner is the scantool, it has the datalist on display.
Is the sensor disconnected here???
Either way (sensor connected or disconnected): Connecting the voltmeter to the 2 wires for the sensing half of the O2 sensor, and reading the SAME value on the scantool data list at the same time is what I'm trying to get. They SHOULD AGREE (or be very close)...can we trust your meter here?
Disconnect the piggyback. Do they still read that far apart?


Another possibility I was thinking of is voltage "bleed", like if a multi-wired connector had water or corrosion in it.
I may remove the single wire in question from the PCM connector (maybe, or cut it), then see if stray voltage is still there......but don't even think about doing this yet.


For the testing that doesn't need the engine to be running, disconnect the piggyback. Then restore the PCM wiring to original state.
Piggy has authority over the PCM for fuel control at the very least I have no idea what else and all I can do is guess), and I need to see the PCM values in their natural state (unmodified) for a lot of this.

I can't trust and evaluate data from ONE thing if there is ANY CHANCE that something else is screwing with the data I'm trying to read.
Is this clear yet???


THIS WILL INSTALL IT
Rapidly.
Into a dumpster from 20 paces.
Bosch platinum plugs get installed the same way.
Junk, junk, junk.

ezone

"Scanner is the scantool, it has the datalist on display."

I mean LIVE data in the datalist. Values as the PCM sees it.

SpdySylvrEX

Roger on that.

, $50 at advance
That was the one, but not there now....

Actually did that the other day by accident and then last night on purpose...all good

Yes, sorry

did both, same results on both
Yep, did it, this is where I got 2.2v and the live data had 1.275.

yes, it's a nice one. IMO



It is clear...I get it....I completely agree, now.

[/QUOTE]


okay, so to just dump more salt in these wounds: Today while driving home, it felt like the fuel was cutting in and out. During cruise, the AFR was anywhere from 15-18 (yes, fluctuating). Unless I was in boost, then it was right at the 12 range. It would even be 13-14 during light acceleration. Also, As I was sitting at a stop sign waiting for my turn, the car just sat at 2K, and would not drop in RPM (at all). I am planning on getting together with a buddy (who is an ASE mechanic) and he is going to help me look at this thing. Hopefully, hopefully, we can check the fuel pressure. I know that Hondas have that clip at the fuel rail and his pressure tester does not have it. Is there some sort of tool or connector we can get?

ezone

It would be nice if you had the original injectors so you could just run the darn thing in stock configuration with the stock PCM, and the stock MAP sensor and see how it runs then. ( I assume this is using a different MAP sensor, yes?)
You wouldn't need to get into boost or anything, just see if it runs right on the stock PCM.
That would answer a lot of my questions.


Remember, I deal with stock stuff, I don't have much experience with aftermarket controls.
Something is haywire, and you need to establish if the foundation (the stock stuff) is right or not first.
All of the aftermarket controls depend on the stock unit working properly.

You can't build a skyscraper if the foundation is broken. (Well, most people wouldn't want to.)
----------------------------------------------------

Honda sent us a pile of adapter hoses that are direct fit into the plastic fuel lines, and the pressure gauge connects right to it.
I really doubt you have a fuel pressure problem unless the FP relay is getting turned off and on. You have a huge problem with the computers controlling everything right now.
----------------------------------------

When it idles at a somewhat moderate RPM, what happens if you unplug the IAC valve?
What does it do if you unplug the IAC while the RPM is already sky high?
Is the IAC sticking, or is it being controlled when it has the RPM far too high?
Can your scanner display any value for IAC control?
-----------------------------------------

Anyway.....I'm going to take a wild stab at what I think is going on in your description....maybe. But you have to read through the drivel first.

Stioch for gasoline (stoichiometry) is 14.7:1, you don't NEED any richer until it is under a load. Not necessarily boost, but significant load.
Idling and normal steady speed driving should have fuel control at stoich.


Normal theory, off the top of my head:
The O2 sensor is designed to switch voltage up and down (higher or lower than .450v, the threshold voltage) as the mixture crosses the 14.7:1 threshold. The computer watches that voltage change and drives the mixture slightly richer and leaner to keep the sensor voltage changing (this is where the short term fuel trim happens). As long as it can do this, it has control of the fuel.

If you were to introduce a small vacuum leak (forget the fact that the MAP sensor takes care of fuel for that for now) then the O2 reads low voltage and the PCM starts adding fuel (short term trim goes up)...keeps adding fuel until it sees the O2 sensor voltage rise again. Once it sees the O2 voltage rise, then it keeps the fuel table there, changing slightly richer and leaner to keep the O2 volts fluctuating again. The amount of fuel it needed to add is calculated, and the short term trim numbers are shifted into the long term area (memory, of sorts). The LTFT numbers are now used for the base calculation, the the STFT goes back to +/-10% and is used for fuel control to keep the O2 fluctuating.

These calculations are done many, many times, for many, many different operating conditions.

A vacuum leak makes the biggest difference at low engine RPM, so as the RPM increases the fuel trims would shift back towards normal as the effects of the vacuum leak diminishes.
An O2 sensor stuck could cause the trims to be shifted all across the entire engine operating range.
I'm just guessing right now, I don't know what's going on with yours.
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The PCM should try to keep mixture in the area of 14.7:1 the entire time it is running in closed loop (up until about 70% calculated load, give or take a little bit).
(Your piggyback modifies injector ON times the entire time the engine is running because the injectors can flow roughly double the amount of fuel that the stock injectors flowed, but the fuel trim calculations should still be the same in the PCM.)

Once over that 70ish% amount of load, the PCM data should show OL-D (for OPEN LOOP-DRIVING) and revert to the fuel table (timing and fuel map, plus any corrections added by the LTFT). The piggyback probably takes over major fuel control at this point, and bases it on your custom programming.
(So right now it ran good under boost because the PCM isn't the major fuel controller under boost.)

But the PCM doesn't have fuel control during normal driving now because of the O2 sensor fault (or whatever is causing what seems to be a fault). The piggyback just makes the effect worse because it modifies the injector pulsewidth across the board. Garbage in=garbage out.
I bet the PCM has been trying to lean out the fuel, trying to get the O2 sensor to drop its voltage (part of its strategy), and leans it to the point that the engine is starving for fuel. That's when it starts bucking, until it goes into open loop (if you could watch data on a scanner while you drive). The PCM can do this without the piggyback too, it has that much control over fuel delivery.)

If the sensor had been stuck at a voltage that indicated lean, the computer would make the fuel richer, trying to evoke a change in O2 sensor voltage. The engine would buck and surge while it tries to do this. Then go to open loop as a default.


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Now: Why does the measured voltage on the O2 wires not match what the PCM sees?
Why does the O2 sensor not report accurately?
Which computer is acting up? WHY is it acting up?
Again, garbage in = garbage out.
The computer(s) see, make , and calculate ALL actions using voltage. The computers MUST have proper power supply and proper grounding, or else all of the values it sees and uses are screwed, therefore all of its actions can be screwed as well.


Still with me? How's that headache now? LOL

ezone

you don't NEED any richer until it is under a load.

I meant at operating temperature. A cold engine needs far more fuel.

SpdySylvrEX

Lucky for us, I have the injectors still. The MAP sensor is the stock one there is just a box that "lies" to the MAP (while in boost).


That is biblical

I will see when I get a chance. I have done it before and I don't think anything changed. (this problem has been going on for awhile) I just don't remember what happened.

The scanner actually belongs to a buddy of mine. I will ask him.

I think this may explain what happened today. during my drive home, I only had fuel when the throttle was at about 75%. Once I hit 75% throttle, the car would respond at what 75% throttle is supposed to. I have no idea how to explain this....
]
This is exactly what it seemed like was going on.

Now: Piggy back? Bad wiring when it was tuned?

Piggy back? Bad wiring from before?

how's the headache now?

ezone

Lucky for us, I have the injectors still. The MAP sensor is the stock one there is just a box that "lies" to the MAP (while in boost).

SO does that mean it would be easy or tough to return it to somewhat stock for tests?

That is biblical Nah. Tryin to come up with an analogy that makes sense. Did it work?
I could have said you would end up with the Leaning Tower of Pisa.


I will see when I get a chance. I have done it before and I don't think anything changed. (this problem has been going on for awhile) I just don't remember what happened. So this isn't part of the current problem? Ok, I'll try to ignore that for now.

The scanner actually belongs to a buddy of mine. I will ask him. As above, if this fast idle is an old problem, ignore for now..

I think this may explain what happened today. during my drive home, I only had fuel when the throttle was at about 75%. Once I hit 75% throttle, the car would respond at what 75% throttle is supposed to. I have no idea how to explain this.... I explained it, I think.

This is exactly what it seemed like was going on.

I don't deal with this stuff, but I can guess how a lot of it works.

Now: Piggy back? Bad wiring when it was tuned?
Piggy back? Bad wiring from before?
Those were all questions that I'm trying to get answered.
If everything worked when it was built, then it worked at that time.
What has happened since then is anyones guess.
Crappy wiring jobs can show up at any time.

Hmmm... Speaking of crappy wiring jobs....
Are there any vampire connectors holding this aftermarket stuff together?
These are what I'm talking about



These are the shizziest things known for making connections. Great for random intermittent bad connections. Installers love them because they are fast, I can't stand them because they fail.

Stereos, alarms, everything. These connectors just plain suck.
If you got em, start wiggling wires when that relay acts up.
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I'm trying to figure out if the difference in the O2 voltage readings is somehow related to the relay clicking problem, or if it is something else.

I also am assuming that the P0132 code was present before the relay clicking problem too.

*I think* you need to eliminate the aftermarket crap and see if the original stuff still works correctly. Well, that's probably something I would do if I couldn't find anything else substantial.

Now...I've been speculating an awful lot over the last few days, and I haven't yet heard from you what single wire on that main relay is causing it to be clicking away.



Something else.....Are there any other strange symptoms you can add to the mix?



how's the headache now?

ezone

I guess I'm trying to figure out which symptoms go with what problem, since you already had some issues before the newest problem popped up.

P0132 came with the new O2 sensor\Some of the running problem goes with this

Fast idle was already there before

How many different, or what exactly, are the symptoms that go with the relay clicking?

Are there other symptoms or clues going on that you haven't mentioned?

Man, I'm going to have to take a day to reread this whole thread.

SpdySylvrEX

Yeah, it'd be pretty easy.
Heck no, I am to CDO (OCD get it? the letters are in order) for those pieces of junk.
Yes it was.
None I haven't told you about. Today's drive was much worse with the throttle issue. I can't do anything without a lot of throttle and even then it takes a minute to respond. I think the last time this happened (full throttle driving only), I changed the plugs and it went away for a while. but of course it came back. I was actually going through plugs once a week. (that was before i changed all the vac lines and throttle body and intake manifold).

Just not starting. That was it.

I'm gonna have to sit down and read it also...I think I need to step back and take a better look at what we both are saying.

I am still waiting for the "clicking relay" to act up again.

These are problems i have had since Day one. I obviously didn't know what I was getting into when I started this build and now i am paying the price. I honestly thought that when I bought this turbo kit, it would come complete, ready for fun. I was obviously wrong. Maybe it would help if I started from the beginning. I will try to type that up for you.

ezone

CDO, yeah I get it. I have used that line before. One of the cow-orkers is a little bit OCD and he hates it when I joke about it.

Blackened plugs? Must have been pig-rich the entire time.

Nobody ever wants to pay shop rates for me to do aftermarket installs the way I like to do them, soldered with heat shrink and stuff like that....
It took me quite a while to assemble the stereo, 3 amps, power antenna, CD changer, neons, alarm, air pump, and whatever else in my lowrider....and it still looks hacked in places because there is so much wire, but I know it isn't going to cause me any problems.

Do you have test equipment connected and ready for when the relay acts up?


Is this your first build? No other experience? Yes, it is easy to get overwhelmed, especially if you are having to learn as you go. Probably would have helped if you already knew all the theories behind everything involved in the first place, before you started modifying.
You would have had a solid foundation to build on...(hey, that sounds familiar.)

Oh lawdy, another 60 post thread. LOL

SpdySylvrEX

No, not yet...(Don't hate me) This is my DD and my time consists of taking care of 3 kids and a wife who is still recovering from a major surgery, plus a full time job, and I am the Youth Pastor at my church, (talk about a full plate). I know it sounds like excuse after excuse, but I am trying. My wife is getting even more pissed that it seems like this car is taking up all my time. There are chores to be done, things she can't actually do. I am going to try to get it back to stock as much as possible this weekend. and maybe hook up that test light you have been talking about.

First build: Yes
Other experience is mainly Diesel. MTU, Cummins, and a little Detroit. All Coast Guard. I even have a little Honda outboard experience. But most of it consists of "seeing" what is broke, and fixing it, (i'm pretty good at that actually).

I can't thank you enough man for helping me with this problem. I am to stubborn to quit and admit when I am beat. I am not beat yet.