fuel filter seized bolts - Honda Civic Forum



Fuel, Oil, Cleaners & Other Maintenance Extending the life of your Civic requires the proper fuel, oil, and cleaners, along with other regularly scheduled maintenance.

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Old 12-07-2010   #1
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fuel filter seized bolts

Hey,
I'm attempting to change to fuel filter on my 91 civic with 494xxx km on it. It is using the original filter. The car has always been given 94 gas from chevron. I am changing the filter because it is way overdue. It was my dad's car before.

I tried to take off the bolts today but they were just too damn tight. I applied liberal amounts WD 40 to try and loosen it up, let is sit for 10 minutes, 30, 60..nothing. Had wrench on bottom nut and top bolt counter- torquing to get it off but just would not budge. Help? Thanks
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Old 12-07-2010   #2
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

WD40 is terrible as a penetrating lube, I only use it as a lubricant. I always use PB Blaster on tough bolts and dI never have a problem, even rust coater frame bolts.

I also clean bolts with brake cleaner and a wire brush or some steel wool, so the lubricant can get down to the threads if I'm having trouble and I can't use heat.

Last edited by MindBomber; 12-07-2010 at 01:09 AM.
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Old 12-07-2010   #3
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

ur wasting ur money pouring 94octane. u dont get any performance gains or mpg gains......in fact, you lose hp and in turn mpg.

just to let u know.


now, if u were tuned for 94 (eg. turbo or NA build) then thats when pouring higher than 87 is beneficial.
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Old 12-07-2010   #4
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

All right I'm going to pick up that PB Blaster tomorrow. Do you think it'll penetrate the threads even through the compressed washer? The bolts are so tight so I am just thinking.
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Old 12-07-2010   #5
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

Considering the manual tells you 91 is good enough I think 87 would be horrible. I actually get better mileage with 94 opposed to 91. It's a pretty old car to race or get massive performance with an old transmission. It gets me from work and grocery shopping, school, fishing and camping I am pretty satisfied.
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Old 12-07-2010   #6
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

Clean the bolts really well and soak them 2-3 times a day for a couple days, if that doesn't work there's another penetrating lube thats even better that would definitely work..

only problem, its about $150 a can.
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Old 12-07-2010   #7
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

^hahahaha.

let me educate you briefly what octane/octane number is:

octane any isomeric saturated hydrocarbon found in petroleum and used as a fuel and solvent.


a higher octane gas doesnt mean the fuel is a "cleaner fuel" nor does it mean ur engine is gonna last longer.

(if this is what you think, you know absolutely NOTHING about fuels. no offense)

basically higher octane allows an engine to run high compression (if the engine was designed for that specific octane)


the 1991 civic engine (D13B2) is designed for a 87octane or equivalent. running any HIGHER octane (higher than 87) will make you LOSE miles-per-gallon and lose horsepower.....not to mention you are WASTING ur money.


anyone who argues other wise is a idiot (not directing it toward anyone here, just in general) who needs to do a little bit of learning/reading/researching before they miss inform other people with their "logic."




Quote:
Originally Posted by gearbox View Post
the facts are using higher octane gas on a regular low compression motor will result in worse performance, simply because the engine cannot properly burn all the fuel. it will also cause the main computer to mess with the timing and it will make things even worse and most likely reduce gas mileage. ive even heard of injectors clogging up from using hi octane fuel. now if you have a hi performance/compression motor, then yes you need to be using higher octane. the engine will make more power, and using lower octane fuels can actually cause engine damage.

all civics use 87 octane (altho 86 would be best), except the civic SI with higher hp motor, which uses 89 or better.


also, here is an example that shows what im talking about.


http://www.v6performance.net/forums/...295#post299295


Quote:
Originally Posted by v6p.net

================================================
What octane fuel should I be using in the J30A1?
================================================

A mini-primer on octane, ignition timing, and air-fuel ratio tuning.

The short answer: 87 octane and nothing more. Yes, even for best performance - just 87 octane. Higher octane fuel will actually give you LESS power on the J30A1.

The long answer:The octane requirements of an engine are directly related to the compression ratio of the engine and how it's tuned (primarily ignition timing and air-fuel ratios) from the factory. Combustion chamber design also has a play. It has nothing to do with the number of cylinders (i.e., the J30A1 doesn't need premium just because it has 6 cylinders vs a 4 cylinder.)

By today's standards, the J30A1 runs a relatively low 9.4:1 CR (compression ratio) which decreases its need for octane. 10.0:1 would be considered medium, and 10.5:1 or above would be pretty high for a production general consumer market engine. Typically a 10.0:1 CR is the crossover point on whether an engine will need higher octane fuel or not. A conservatively tuned engine with a 10.0:1 CR can do fine with 87 octane, but one with more advanced tuning will need premium. Due to the J30A1's low compression ratio and also its conservative state of tune (both ignition timing and air-fuel ratio), it performs the best on 87 octane fuel. Anything more will actually DEGRADE performance, not improve it. This was proven by a chassis dyno test on a J30A1 powered Accord by Car & Driver magainze in November 2001, and also proven at the track by previous G6 Accord V6 owners - they ran a few tenths slower due to premium fuel.



Although at the peak the engine only "lost" 4 whp on higher octane fuel, that is nothing compared to the vast amount of power lost in the lower rev range. Although torque was not plotted here, the difference equates to as much as 15 lb-ft of torque lost all throughout the low-end and mid-range which is very significant and would be noticeable on the "butt dyno".

Contrary to popular belief, higher octane fuel does not have more energy per gallon than lower octane fuel - it actually has LESS. Octane is a flame retardant that actually slows down and acts to prevent combustion from happening. Therefore, the more octane in your fuel, the more difficult it is to burn. In order to compensate for this slower and more difficult burn, ignition timing would need to be advanced such that combustion would start much sooner. By the time the piston reaches TDC (Top Dead Center) the combustion process needs to already be at or near its peak such that there is a maximum amount of force available to drive the piston downward with. This ignition timing is set and tuned specifically for 87 octane fuel in the J30A1. With higher octane fuel, combustion takes place more slowly. Since there is no built-in mechanism to properly advance the ignition timing for higher performance and higher octane fuels on the J30A1, this means that with the slower burning fuel there is now LESS power from combustion to force the piston downward with by the time it reaches TDC and this reduces torque output. In addition, any combustion that is still taking place at or beyond 20-25 degrees ATDC (After Top Dead Center) does not contribute significantly to the engine's torque output and is therefore wasted. With higher octane fuel and no timing advance, more of the combustion process is likely to take place at or beyond this range and therefore not contribute to the engine's power.

This is why properly tuned ignition timing is so critical in modern engines. To much timing advance and the knocking phenomenon can occur which can destroy an engine if severe enough (oversimplifying: knocking occurs due to too much compression/timing advance for a given octane level). Too little timing advance and you're not getting the most you can out of the engine and it's not running as efficiently as it could both in terms of torque production, fuel mileage, and even emissions. Since the J30A1 engine does not have a knock sensor that can tell the computer to retard the timing in the event that knocking occurs, this forces Honda to set the default ignition timing extremely conservatively and for the lowest common denominator octane level of 87. Therefore, if you are fueling your J30A1 with anything higher than 87 octane, you are purely wasting your money. As Car & Driver's test concluded, you pay more money for higher octane fuel, but get less power with the J30A1, and that has been backed up by track testing from members here. C&D's panel of experts did not know why exactly that was with the J30A1, but we know here at V6P.

The flip side however is that the J30A1's very conservative NA (naturally aspirated) properties make it ideal for boosting (supercharger, turbo, etc), although you do still need to watchout for knocking since there is no knock sensor. Gaining all-motor performance with the J30A1 is very difficult and expensive, and will have perhaps one of the lowest horsepower gain to dollars spent ratios out of any car out there.

References:
- A search for various combinations of the words octane, ignition, timing, performance, dyno, and compression netted countless excellent technical writeups from respectable sites which I have been reading for some time now.
- OBD-II scanning logs from my Maxima while playing with the knock sensor.
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Old 12-07-2010   #8
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

Hahah wow. What is it?
After I get the bolt off should clean them with a brush and spray them with the PB Blaster and then re insert? Or if they are clean just leave them be? Thanks!
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Old 12-07-2010   #9
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

so all im saying is: 87 is what you should be pouring. its optimal for ur car.

however, if u butt-dyno says ur car is fast n furious on 94...then its ur choice, ur car, ur money. just my .02
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Old 12-07-2010   #10
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

sl33pyriceboi that is a very good post. Could my civics engine be tuned to run more efficiently on 94? When would engine knock occur then? Thanks it's always good to learn from someone informed
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Old 12-07-2010   #11
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinL View Post
sl33pyriceboi that is a very good post. Could my civics engine be tuned to run more efficiently on 94? When would engine knock occur then? Thanks it's always good to learn from someone informed
yes your civic COULD be turned for higher octane... but it would not benefit you very much because the power would be so minimal compared the HP gains. you would need a piggy back ECU (like hondata, AEM EMS or equivalent...but they cost close to $1000)


and engine will knock when:

Improper Combustion Process

An engine can ping (or knock) due to an improper combustion process. A "spark knock" is the result of combustion occurring too early. Early combustion can occur from carbon buildup inside the combustion chamber, a lean air/fuel mixture, and advanced ignition timing (spark plug firing too soon). In a properly-firing cylinder, the spark plug ignites the air/fuel mixture and a flame front starts on one side of the piston and burns across the top to the other side, which creates a rapid and evenly-expanding gas that pushes down on the top of the piston. When the air/fuel mixture is ignited prior to the spark plug firing, the two flame fronts collide, causing the pinging/knocking noise.

Engine Is Too Hot

An engine can ping because it is too hot. This is another uneven combustion scenario that is caused by the air-to-fuel mixture "lighting off" by itself. If the cooling system does not keep the engine's combustion chamber temperature in check, the air-to-fuel mixture will begin to spontaneously explode. This is also called "pre-ignition."

Improper Gasoline Octane
In addition to cooling system problems, pinging can be caused by improper gasoline octane, an overly lean air-to-fuel mixture, or a lack of proper exhaust gas recirculation. The exhaust gas recirculation system (EGR) was created to neutralize engine pinging by adding a small amount of exhaust gas to the air-to-fuel mixture going in to the combustion process, which limits the peak combustion chamber temperature.

Internal Mechanical Problems
Internal mechanical problems can also cause engine knocking. One such problem stems from excessive clearance inside the bearings in the connecting rods that transfer the downward movement of the pistons to crankshaft rotation. Each time the piston changes direction, there is a knock from the metal hitting metal. This is often referred to as a "rod knock." It is usually very rhythmic—it increases with engine speed and intensifies with engine load.


these are the main factors (not ALL the factors)
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Old 12-07-2010   #12
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

+1 for you MartinL for being a good sport about it.


most people get all defensive and butthurt and try to retaliate. lol
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Old 12-07-2010   #13
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

No in all honesty I did quick research and saw that higher octane is probably better because of higher compression etc etc assumed it was also cleaner, manual said 91 etc etc, but it's always good to hear more information. No point in being stubborn never going to learn anything like that. That rod knock was interesting, when my engine is cold it almost sounds like a diesel engine. I was thinking it could be the engine valves. Dunno.

Nevertheless thanks for teaching me something today!
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Old 12-07-2010   #14
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinL View Post
Hahah wow. What is it?
After I get the bolt off should clean them with a brush and spray them with the PB Blaster and then re insert? Or if they are clean just leave them be? Thanks!
I'd go grab new bolts, usually the auto-parts store won't even charge you for a couple small bolts. You could just re-use the old bolts and spraying them down is a good idea, but if you spray them down be careful not to over torque them and snap the bolt.
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Old 12-07-2010   #15
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber View Post
I'd go grab new bolts, usually the auto-parts store won't even charge you for a couple small bolts. You could just re-use the old bolts and spraying them down is a good idea, but if you spray them down be careful not to over torque them and snap the bolt.
Thanks MindBomber. I'm going to do that tomorrow morning and hopefully they come off. Thanks for all your help I really appreciate it.
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Old 12-07-2010   #16
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

I always chuckle a bit when people use 94 octane, you should always go to Chevron or Shell since they have legit cleaning agents though. If you really want to maintain an engine well using synthetic oil is a much better place to put your money. OP if your not using synthetic oil, don't convert now it might actually hurt the engine.
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Old 12-07-2010   #17
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

i find it strange that ur manual says 91. maybe u miss read it and maybe the manual was referring to your year as "91" ??? *shrugs*

but, according to the gov database, u use regular (which is 87)

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/7617.shtml
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Old 12-07-2010   #18
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

its funny how theres two convos going on at the same time.

i digress. back to the main topic of bolts, nuts, and things that are stuck.
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Old 12-07-2010   #19
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber View Post
I always chuckle a bit when people use 94 octane, you should always go to Chevron or Shell since they have legit cleaning agents though. If you really want to maintain an engine well using synthetic oil is a much better place to put your money. OP if your not using synthetic oil, don't convert now it might actually hurt the engine.
ahh!.... i must.....resist.... talking about....... real synthetics. lol

maybe ill do a WHOLE thread and teach u guys a lil about oils. lol but after finals tho.
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Old 12-07-2010   #20
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber View Post
I always chuckle a bit when people use 94 octane, you should always go to Chevron or Shell since they have legit cleaning agents though. If you really want to maintain an engine well using synthetic oil is a much better place to put your money. OP if your not using synthetic oil, don't convert now it might actually hurt the engine.
Yeah I fill up at chevron normally. I use Mobile 1 2000 High mileage synthetic with a Fram high mileage filter.
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Old 12-07-2010   #21
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by sl33pyriceboi View Post
i find it strange that ur manual says 91. maybe u miss read it and maybe the manual was referring to your year as "91" ??? *shrugs*

but, according to the gov database, u use regular (which is 87)

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/7617.shtml
Yeah 91; manual says don't bother putting in higher octane than that haha.
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Old 12-07-2010   #22
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by sl33pyriceboi View Post
ahh!.... i must.....resist.... talking about....... real synthetics. lol

maybe ill do a WHOLE thread and teach u guys a lil about oils. lol but after finals tho.
There should be both a sticky on gas and another on oil, if there isn't make on after finals.
I know the difference and I've used both group III and IV synthetic oils, but very few people do. No, I don't use group IV in my car, so no flaming.

On topic,
If you have any more trouble with the bolts post a pic of them so we can access how bad they are.
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Old 12-07-2010   #23
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

What's group 3 and 4 oils?

Yeah I am going to get that PB blaster after I take my girlfriend to work. I thought I might've been turning the wrenches wrong way but then looked at the threads on the new filter so it's just really tight. (insert joke)
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Old 12-07-2010   #24
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

. I don't really have anything to contribute, but I do agree the PB Blaster statement. I picked up some good info from this thread as well.
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Old 12-07-2010   #25
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinL View Post
What's group 3 and 4 oils?

Yeah I am going to get that PB blaster after I take my girlfriend to work. I thought I might've been turning the wrenches wrong way but then looked at the threads on the new filter so it's just really tight. (insert joke)
heres a quick rundown [i should be studying for my finals that is in 3hrs. haha]


oils are grouped in to different categories. the "group" refers to the base oil in a particular group.

group III oils are dino, but they are ULTRA refined (our technology of refinement can now refine dino oils to 99.99 PURE)

group IV oils are called PAO. these oils are TRULY full synthetic. meaning each oil molecule was man-made and therefore, in X amount of volume, EVERY molecule is the same. it is also very expensive to produce.

group IV oils usually cost around $15 a quart (yes...quart... not the 4$ mobil1 u find)

note: in the US, regulations allow group III to be labled as "full synthetic." (and if u have half a brain, u will realize that this is a false claim)
why do they do that? some factors are: will sell more. close enough to synthetic...etc

in europe, however, they do not allow group III to be labled as "full synthetic." only group IV are allowed to be labled "full synthetic"


the only know oils tat are group IV PAOs (on the top of my head) are: motul 300V 10w-40 and amsoil 10w-40.

that means mobil1, castrol edge....etc are not legitimately confirmed that its a true group IV oil. most likely, they are a combination of group III + IV
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Old 12-07-2010   #26
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

OP, Once you get those bolts off, i HIGHLY suggest you to get brand new bolts, for about $5 for a couple, and invest in a tube of Anti-Sieze.
A 19 yr old car, bolts and nuts are definately going to be rusted and siezed.

Everytime you remove a bolt/nut/lug nuts, apply anti-sieze. Makes your life 50x easier down the road

As for the octane
Generally, those uneducated, will assume "higher octane provides higher oxygen in my engine"
No, that's why your car has an intake for air/fuel ratios.
Your car isnt tuned to properly handle the higher octane levels.

A common misconception that civics should use higher octane levels is because the Integra GSR actually runs on premium.
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Old 12-07-2010   #27
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinL View Post
Yeah I am going to get that PB blaster...
BG works super well too, and it's the same price as WD-40. http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_vi...?idProduct=612

*Very informative thread. Learned some new things and learned some stuff I forgot. lol
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Old 12-08-2010   #28
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by sl33pyriceboi View Post
heres a quick rundown [i should be studying for my finals that is in 3hrs. haha]


oils are grouped in to different categories. the "group" refers to the base oil in a particular group.

group III oils are dino, but they are ULTRA refined (our technology of refinement can now refine dino oils to 99.99 PURE)

group IV oils are called PAO. these oils are TRULY full synthetic. meaning each oil molecule was man-made and therefore, in X amount of volume, EVERY molecule is the same. it is also very expensive to produce.

group IV oils usually cost around $15 a quart (yes...quart... not the 4$ mobil1 u find)

note: in the US, regulations allow group III to be labled as "full synthetic." (and if u have half a brain, u will realize that this is a false claim)
why do they do that? some factors are: will sell more. close enough to synthetic...etc

in europe, however, they do not allow group III to be labled as "full synthetic." only group IV are allowed to be labled "full synthetic"


the only know oils tat are group IV PAOs (on the top of my head) are: motul 300V 10w-40 and amsoil 10w-40.

that means mobil1, castrol edge....etc are not legitimately confirmed that its a true group IV oil. most likely, they are a combination of group III + IV
Oh yeah I know of amsoil never knew it was group 4 that's good to know. A buddy puts it in his jeep. what's your finals test?
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Old 12-08-2010   #29
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

reporting/writing. i finished it an hr ago. im a free man. feel so good.
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Old 12-08-2010   #30
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Re: fuel filter seized bolts

Oh sweeeeeeet.
****ing bolts won't move god damnit! Even with that blaster stuff.
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