StealthCivic

Well, still dude, you can change your oil every 5,000 miles and get 300,000 miles out of you civic if you keep care of it...less than 5,000 is waste of $$$$$$$ why not get new tires every 2,000 miles too while you're at it man....

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

I got mine directly off Honda website, I put a link in my post. The difference is that my info was for a 2005. They must have added to the oil capacity in some way shape or form But I know my is right too, becasue my '04 civic owner manual says the same numbers I quoted. However, I thinking that 0.1-0.3 quarts will not make much difference.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

Hummmm, lets see cost of tires = $400+ dollars. Cost of oil change = $9. That's over 391 dollar difference, do you see a small difference there? Going back to my point, wht don't you show me a civic that has it's oil changed every 5k and has 300,000 miles on it.

So lets do some math and see just how much I am really wasting here shall we? Maybe then you'll get my point and see just how much money I am wasting.

I drive 15,000 mile a year.

If I change my oil every 3,000 that's 5 oil changes a year.
It costs me $9 to change my oil.
9x5=45, so I spend $45 dollars a year on oil changes.

If I change my oil every 5,000 miles, that's 3 oil changes a year.
It costs me $9 to change my oil.
9x3=$27, so I could spend ONLY $27 doallars a year on oil.

So if I waited to 5,000 miles to change my oil, I would save (45-27)= $18. WHOOOHOOOOOO I could save $18 dollars a year, wow, those oil companies sure are geting rich off me.

But I spent $17,000 to buy my car, I divide that up by 5, that's $3,400 a year.

So long story short, I am willing to spend an extra $18 dollars a year to get the "added" protection for my $3,400 a year I spend on buying my car. SO lets do a little more math. 18/3400=0.005, that means it will cost me less around 0.5% of what I spent on my car to give it that added protection. If I can afford two brand new civic's and a new Accord, I think I can afford a couple extra oil changes.

Comon people, you are squabling over pebbles. If you can afford a new or newwer civic, you shouldn't have a problem paying for oil changes unless you go someplace that charges $30 for an oil change.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

actually, if you are changing your oil at 3000 miles you are hurting your car. you are not giving the oil time to breakdown properly and do it's job. cars nowadays are MADE to go 7000-10000 miles between changes.

the first thing to go if you change your oil every 3000 miles will be your catalytic converter. there is an addative in oils that burns out about 2-3000 miles after you put in fresh oil. that addative does damage to the catalytic converter. if you change your oil every 3000 you will never give your cat a chance to work out the chemical, and eventually you'll fail emissions and your cat will go.

wait at least 5000 miles.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

care to enlighten me on those additives that burn off around 3,000 miles. I'm a chemical Engineer, we devlope these additive and do the distillation to refine it. So can you tell me what exaclty these additives are and the chemical formula? I will tell you the properties of it.

I'm thinking the additives are actually stabilizers in the oil. When they start to break down the oil it's self starts breaking down. Most of the so called "additives" are actually stabilzers to keep the oil in it's orginal form and lowwer the "break down" temperature of the oil, but I'm just guessing

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

This information was provided by a tribologist.

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php...0#entry4205938

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

Since we're arguing here, the cat is under warranty anyway if it breaks down I'll goto honda and they'll install one for free. That shouldn't be a concern. Now are there any REAL problems of changing oil every 3k?

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

Good point, your cat is under warranty for 60,000 miles too, federal law.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

Hummm... interesting, but he knows alot about chemistry, but I know more on catalysis The research group I am in, we design the catalysts for Toyota, Mitsu and the DOE. I hate to inform him that phosphorous doesn't come off, hence there is no regeneration. However the main part of the "burn off" is the parfins he was talking about. Parfins will do nothing more than create carbon depostion on the catalytic surface, this will blow away with a few minutes.

You might also want to take note that he says if you want to change you oil every 3k, use a organic oil (or minoil as he calls it), which I do. Organic oils have far less of these stabilizers and other such chemicals like phosphorous and such that can kill your cat. SO I have choosen that changing my oil more often with organic oil versus synthetic with less oil changes is better for the car. However, synthetic oils have one thing organic doen't, a synthetic oil has a solvent that will eat the carbon depostes away that organics will leave. So every 15k, I put a good synthetic (Royal Purple) in my car for 5k. This fact I just mentioned is the myth behind once you put one kind of oil in your car, you can never change. In old low compression cars, carbon could accually seal hair line fractures in the head gasket. Then people would go and put synthetic in and this would eat the carbon away, shortly after that the hiar line fracture would expand and they would have leaky head gasket.

The last statement is what you should pay attention to though. Sulfur, in the world of catalysis, sulfur kills EVERYTHING. Before you say I am changing my oil to often, you should also see where I am from, Ohio. Ohio has one of the highest sulfur contents in our gas. Sulfur will also break down oil and degrade in to little parfins that will burn away very fast or get suspended in oil. Some synthetic oils can resist sulfur for a little longer, but you are only talking about a 1000 more miles with the high sulfur content fuel we have.

In conclusion, some people can get away with a 5k oil change. I use organic oil and high sulfur fuel, I do not think it is wise for people in my situation to go that long. If you live CA (here sulfur is very limited) and use synthetic oil, you can surely go longer than I.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

Sweet so the truth comes out. I'll stick to 3k oil changes with dino.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

good info. still contradictory to other posts i've read though.

the point was not that the catalyst ever rids itself of phosphorous, but rather if you change your oil more frequently, you will burn out the cat sooner.

the other article which i saw posted (im looking for it, i want to say it was on BITOG) was in regards to the oil not having enough time to do it's job. the way it was explained, the breakdown of the chemicals suspended in the oil needed time to take effect and properly pick up pollutants from the engine. changing the oil before it's had a good chance to do this can be harmful since the pollutants will not all be cleared out.

if you change your oil, it should be dark in color. if it is not, then you are either running very lean on your engine, or you're changing it too soon.

so while this may not be a direct indication that changing the oil too soon is hazardous, there is just as little proof regarding the fact that not changing it at 3000 miles is hazardous as well.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

My point exactly. I figured that if I change with dino oil, I only want to go about 3k becasue it will not hold up do to the sulfur, but if I go with synthetic oil, I can go 5k. Thing is though, it costs more to change with synthetic less often than it does to change more often with organic oil, so I save money and keep sulfur out of my oil by changing every 3k.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, there isn't defintaive either way I guess. But like I siad, I have high sulfur gas, that is the primary reason. My oil becomes dark after about 1000 miles and is very dark by 3k. It seems what this guy is taling about though synthetic oil. Synthetic oil has all these addatives that "clean" the engine. Really, by cleaning they mean it breaks down carbon deposites, which can also be called pollutants. When cabon forms a ring, it is very hard to break. Organic oil does not have this abilty, hence this doesn't apply to most organic oil. Since organic oil doesn't do this, I change in the synthetic every 15k and let the synthetic work for about 5k in my engine before taking it out. This allows the synthetic oil to break down all the carbon deposites that the organic oil has left behind.

I'm not really disagreeing with him or you, I'm just saying in the situtation I'm in (where sulfur is a problem) and I'm to cheap to do synthetic oil changes regularly, this is the best solution. My final point is this:

If you use synthetic oil, go 5k between changes becasue it will break down all the carbon deposite in your engine.

If you are cheap like me, use organic oil and change it every 3k, becasue it doen't break down the carbon and you don't have to worry about that kind of stuff. But you should still need to break the carbon down with synthetic every now and then.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

That's worrying me about the carbon. My block was a mess after 20k with dino oil, but I need to take the car somewhere to get oil changed. synthetic would be a big hassle for me unless I buy the oil and have dealer do it or something. which weight of synthetic is the best for our cars, and brand?

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

from the oil diaries i read i think i remember valvoline synpower or something like that being one of the better ones. there were a couple more.

here are the oil diaries posted on s2ki.com. some good reading in there if you're so inclined.


also i should clear up my statement saying you are "hurting" your car changing your oil every 3000 miles. really my reference is to the catalytic converter and the phosphorous (granted there is less of this with minoils). i cannot find the other article online i had (could have sworn it was on BITOG) read that talked about even minoil being left better off changing 5000 rather than 3000. it was basically saying that today's cars are more than made for it (particularly honda and subaru as they are very "oil friendly" cars). anything before that is a waste of money and resources.

pon55

iTrader: (19)

I have never seen anywhere thats it bad to change oil sooner than needed! It may be a waste of money, but thats all.???????

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

When I use synthetic, I use 5w20, you will find very few options though for a full synthetic 5w20. I use Royal Purple because Summit Racing has it, and their many store is less than five minutes from my work. I think Mobil 1 makes a 0w20 that would be okay to use on occasion, IMO. I never go to a thicker oil than the manufacture sugest unless you are burning oil. Becasue the oil they sugest, is sugested with a cuase, generally that cause is that the thinner oil can go "slung" up into the gap between the piston and the wall. The lighter oil suggestion is comes from the fact that this gap has becaome narrow, tolerances on engines have become far smaller, as such you need a thiner oil to pentrate the gap. It is just what I have heard when I visted Honda's R&D. SO then to use a thinner oil would be okay in that respect, but then getting back to S2000man01's point, using thinner oil will cuase more blow buy, this means more oil will get into the combution chamber and burn, this won't do much to the engine, but will shorten the life of the cats (both of them) and O2 sensors. Hence the reason I say to use once in a while.

My advice if you are getting bad carbon build up, have the dealer use Honda oil when changing your oil. Honda oil has similiar addatives to some of the more expensive synthetic oil, but not all of them, long story short, Honda oil should break down the carbon too. Look around to see what some dealers are offering. For instance, a dealer by me offers 10 oil changes for $150, that's $15 an oil change that includes a new Honda filter, topping all the fluids, a 25 point under car inspection, and a laser wash (it gets under the chasis too). I can't do that stuff that cheap my self.

Oh yeah, what exactly did you have carbon build up on at 20k? I thought you changed your heads around there with the DH heads, so I'm guess on the cam and all that good stuff?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

Pistons AFTER we tried to wipe em off with brake cleaner. Most of it wouldn't come out, so we had to put it back like this.

mykungfuisthebest

iTrader: (1)

i did 3k with regular 5-7 k with synthetic.. its filthy every time i change it too, i drive moderatly hard everywhere i go, never race.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

Okay, I just reread my notes that I took about five years ago when I was working with oils. I've got three things for ya:

1. Make sure what ever oil you are using is API certified (except some of the better Amsoil products like the XL-7500). Stay away from SAE oil, these do not have the needed detergents and don't suspend the small carbon particles in the oil, instead you get a "sledge" on the bottom of your oil pan.

2. Try a using a high detergent oil. This can be dino or synthetic, but use this every now and then and you can clean this up.

3. If you can change your own oil, try puring and extra half qurat in to the engine while the drian plug is out after the rest of the oil has drianed out. This will get the a bit of dirty oil out of the car, this is not needed, but give me a little peice of mind.

Now I must clarify something. I was somewhat wrong about the mineral oils. Most of these have the same detergents as the synthetics. The ONLY reason to use synthetic oil is if you have a engine that produces lots of heat (i.e. a turbo, supercharger, or very high revving, as in up to and over 10,000 RPMs). The only advantage to synthetic is that it doesn't break down as fast when eposed to higher heats. S2000man01 is correct in saying you can easily go 5k on mineral oil, what he forgot to mention is that the oil has to be API certified and NOT an SAE oil. The reason you can go 5k on mineral oil is becasue almost the same detergents are added to the mineral oil as the synthetic. Where he is wrong is that the phosphore content in an API certified oil will not be enough to kill your cat, otherwise it would not be API certified, so changing your oil to oftenn won't hurt your cat, as long as you stick with an API certified oil.

There is one toher thing anbody with a VTEC engine should be aware of though. OIl gets darker becasue it suspends these small particles in it. When these particles become in high enough concentration, it can changes the compressiblity of the oil. To most cars this is no big deal at all, but VTEC uses the oil as a type of hydrolic fluid to activate the VTEC. If your oil goes to long between changes and accumulates to many of these particles, you many devlope long term problems with your VTEC engagment system. A case of this is know in the Saturn S series where the timing belt tensioner is controlled by a hydrolic system that use oil as the hydrolic fliud. If the oil gets to dirty, the tensioner fials making the timing jump and destoring the engine. Saturn suggests changing oil every 3k no matter what on those cars now. I beleive they have gotten away from this system now, but our VTEC works in a similiar fasion. My suggestion has now chaged to the following: change oil every 4.5-5k with a good (API certified 5w20) mineral oil. For those of us with VTEC, don't even think of going over 5k for an oil change.

Kadenx

How come the owners manual on my element suggests oil changes every 10,000 miles and the element has a k24 with vtec or i-vtec or whatever.

Im not discounting you, Im just trying to figure out why they suggest the motor can handle 10,000 miles if there could be problems with the vtec engagement

TurboDieselDrew

12,500 miles on a single oil change and filter... VTEC engine... analysis looks good to me:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...c;f=3;t=002194

10,000 mile oil change for Civic Si:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...c;f=3;t=002254

The only way to tell is to do an analysis on the oil coming out of your car. It changes for everyone. It looks like you can go past 5k miles on a VTEC with the right oil.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

I have an Accord which has the same drivetrian as your element, K24 with the 5 speed auto (I'm guessing you have an auto, but that isn't the quetion here so never mind). The 10,000 mile oil change is under "normal condiotions" according to Honda. Where I live is not normal conditions, this morning when I started my car, the temp was 6 degrees F. It can also be very dusty where I live during the summer. My point is unless you drive only highway miles where it is 70F and no dust, I really wouldn't call it "normal conditions." It kind of falls under the idea that my car can get 34 MPG, I have yet to break 26 MPG with it, but Honda says it can on the highway. Both measurememts are to the extreme. Normal coniditons are not pratical for most people and severe probably only falls under a few, most people I'm guessing are somewhere inbetween noram and severe. I personally am going to go for the safer than sorry method and just say I drive severe. True, I don't think Hondas VTEC system is quite as bad as Saturn, although late preludes with H22A's are prone to this exact problem. The K series is being used all over Honda's line up and I am guessing they built it almost bullit proof if they are willing to put it that many cars. Thing is though, carbon can build up not only becasue of oil burning, but because of bad gas, bad enviroment, bad air filter ect. As dieselDrew pointed out the only real way to know is to have your oil analized.

Your oil needs to be changed before it is saturated with carbon, or it can't suspend any more in it, this is when carbon really starts depositing on the internals. That may be untill 12,500 if all goes well. Or you could get a bad tank of gas or a dusty day or whatever, where lots of carbon is formed, this may kill your oils life by 5,000 miles, then when you wait to change your oil till the 10k mark, but your oil was saturated at 7.5k, so the oil that can not pick up the carbon, so it simply deposites it in pressure gradient areas, like the VTEC system. IF you think you can wait until 10,000 mile, go for it, but I will sitck to the sever coniditions, not to mention here in Ohio we have crappy high sulfur gas that kills the pH of oil.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

With the right oil and right conditions. The quesiton is how expensive is the right oil and is it worth it?

49ers

Talking to some old timer Honda owners they say the same thing or Same song every 3 to 5k depending on what type of person you are, there's two types (A) if you drive slow and baby your car and gas then 5k But if you are type (B) in the Fast lane or Diamond lane cruising at 80mph and get-out-of-my-way! type, then every 3k the choice is yours! Sorry, I'm type (B)

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

even if you drive your car like you stole it, 3000 miles is too early.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

Yup... noticed you said old timers, that means they really don't know much about oil dtergents or anything of that matter.

MajinB

iTrader: (21)

you know i have been reading all the threads in the oil/other maintanace section. i think someone should have a thread dedicated to arguing the 3k oil change vs higher. i just keep seeing the same arguement with diff people.

pon55

iTrader: (19)

^^^^

jttegx

iTrader: (3)

how about 3000 miles of track racing?