Civicnoobie

Just started yesterday and I took the sub out of the box and inspected it, no tears or seperatation at all. The cone pushes down smoothly with no noise and the same resistance all around the cone. Even did it from the inside of the woofer and same thing, pushes fine.

So I tried lowering my gains to pretty much 15% on my amp and bass boost to 0 and i still got the clipping/distorting. The sound is coming right from dead centre of the sub, not the edges but the centre.

I did the 9V test by connecting the plugs to a 9V batt and the cone on the woofer moved fine.

My amp is Kicker ZX series 400W RMS but it runs at 4ohms so its only putting out 200watts.

My sub is JL Audio W3 300W RMS but its also running at 4ohms so im guessing its only putting out 150W RMS? Or would it be 200? If its 150W then im guessing i overdrove the sub.

I need to find out forsure if my sub is toast or not before I go out buying another.

I was told IF you plan on playing a sub loud you need to match both the RMS on the sub and RMS on the amp exactly the same RMS.

But if my amp is 400W RMS but only 200W RMS in 4ohms, wouldnt a 300W RMS sub be good enough?

If I play it in 4ohms at 200W RMS, does my sub need to be 200W or 400W?

Civicnoobie

Fixed, sub is toast so got a new sub and more powerful. 400W RMS to match my amp.

GolNat

iTrader: (7)

All RMS ratings have an impedance that the sub/amp will work at. You can overdrive a sub and not hurt anything. If its 300W RMS at 2 ohms and you make it 4 ohms then it halfs the power rating. So you would be 150W at 4 ohms. They don't have too match exactly, it's ok to overdrive a sub. There is a percentage that is acceptable and I can't remember it.

Civicnoobie

True but i think i overdrove it bit too much for too long. It lasted me 2years.

I had my amp running in 4ohms giving out 200W RMS and the sub was 300W RMS. Often i guess i would play the sub at around 200W which according to JL audio site is the max before doing damage.

The guy at the shop said, its not so much about power but about gains and bass boost. I could have been running those a bit high even though i adjusted them right. But bass boost, ok i had it 7/8 notces maybe bit too high.

So I picked out another sub and cause i didnt want to get the same one and over drive it again, I figured i would pay bit more. i got the Kicker sub thats actually made and comes with my specific amp, so the specs match perfect, they go hand in hand. Its a dual 4ohm dual voice coil sub and gives out 400W RMS. It set me back $170. It was either this or i get the same sub again for $112 and have to turn down my bass and gains a tad, which I didnt want. Even then i just wanted the extra power in the sub as leverage, nice to have.

No my amp is 400RMS at 2ohms, 200RMS at 4ohms. RIght now I just added the dual 4ohm sub (which makes it run at 2ohms) and thats 400RMS. So technically my amp should run at 2ohms now right? I asked the guy twice to double check if I have to rewire anything else and he said no because its a dual 4ohm sub. He said if it was a 2ohm sub then i would have to rewire my amp.

I just want to be sure, I dont want to have to replace anymore stuff!

The reason why he suggested I go with the dual voice coil 4ohm sub and run at 2 over 4 ohms is cause chances are it would run at less or lower distortion. More power from amp = more leeway

This extra power should help and not let me overdrive it.

Im currently breaking in the sub but i can already tell it has more omph.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

not sure what exactly you mean with your wording. the amp OUTPUTS a certain rms power, and the sub RECEIVES up to a certain amount of power. The sub should be receiving at least 75% of its rated max rms power handling. for example if your sub is rated for a max of 400w rms, the amp should provide around 300w rms or more. even if the amp puts out 400rms, its not likely you will damage the sub if the gains are properly set. its never better to underpower.

GolNat

iTrader: (7)

If you wired the duel voice coils (4ohm each) in parallel to each other and created a 2 ohm load then yes you are now running 400W at 2ohms. An amp should supply between 75% and 150% of what a sub can handle. I think with your previous set up, your JL sub was 300W RMS with a 4ohm impedance. At 4 ohms hooked up to your amp it was only supplying 200W of power, but the minimum (75%) would put you at 225W RMS. Therefore, you were under powering your sub. Like Gearbox said, it's never better to under power. Now your setup should be right, as long as your gains are set properly and the new sub is wired as a 2ohm load.

Civicnoobie

Oh I thought if the amp puts out more power than the sub, it would blow the sub? But in my case the amp was putting out 200RMS and the sub is 300RMS. I had my gains set by ear, did the test everyone suggested...

1) turn gain and bass boost on amp to 0
2) turn up music from head unit to loudest id listen to
3) slowly turn up gain from amp til hear distortion and back off a bit.
4) Then turn up the bass boost the same way after.

Oh between 75-150%? Didnt know it was that high. Since my old set up was 200/300 then that means the amp was only putting out 66% of what the sub could handle. So im guessing it wasnt enough? Though before i put it in, the guy said the gap between 200/300 wasnt big enough difference. I didnt know you could kill subs from underpowering it by only 33%$ difference. Because I had it running in 4ohms, i probably overdrove the sub with too much distortion out of the amp at 200RMS.



Do you really need to set gains with a digital Multimeter? These are the settings i had on the old sub i only had my gains set 4/6 notches and bass boost had it to 5/6. Right now on the new sub, cause im currently breaking it in, im not going to set them yet so I have it on half way for now and bass boost 4/6. Break in for 20hours then ill set the gain and bass boost. But right now i should be safe with gains only half way and bass boost 5/8.

rjones7755

If you really want to set your gains correctly you need to use an o-scope....but usually its really unnecessary and a volt meter should be fine.

Civicnoobie

This is what i found, To figure out what voltage you should set the gains to, multiply the RMS power of the amplifiers output by the impedance of the speaker, then find the square root of that number. If you are using an amplifier that has an RMS rating of more than your speaker(s) can handle/rated for, then use the RMS rating of the speaker (instead of the RMS of the amplifier) to determine the voltage to set your amp to.

Example
Say the amp provides 100WRMS into a 4 ohm speaker:

Voltage = sqrt(100W X 4 ohms)
Voltage = sqrt(400W*ohms)
Voltage = 20V

So mine is 400RMS into 2ohms so its 400x2 = 800.
Sqrt foot of 800 according to the calculator is 28.28V

But shouldnt I be able to set the gain without a volt meter? I can always run it bit lower and it should be safe no? Cant overpower a sub that way can you? Cause by running it a bit lower than usual it just has a tad less volume from your sub.

EDIT: JUST FOUND OUT! The more power, the less voltage, the lower your gain should be on the amp.

My old sub: 300W RMS x 4ohms = 1200. Sq root is 34.64V
My new sub: 400W RMS x2ohms = 800. Sq root is 28.28V

Kennykid2002

iTrader: (1)

You do know, we have a thread dedicated to setting your amps...
With the number 1 mistake bolded.
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...-tutorial.html

To set your amps properly, you'd use an O-Scope, but you can get away with just a basic volt meter

The W3's can easily handle 500W RMS if tuned properly.

I run a W3v2 perfectly fine at about ~320RMS
and I get compliments on how my system sounds all the time.

Civicnoobie

I just checked it out and printed it thanks. ONly thing i dont get is, you say

After everything is finished, you can return your regular EQ settings, but make sure Low is set to 0, because that would change the voltage that you just set

What do you mean low? Once i chance all my EQ settings back to where i like them doesnt that change the gain?

I have off/low/mid/high modes on my pioneer deck. Basically the higher it is, more amp power and sounds better. I run it on mid.

Civicnoobie

I bought my volt meter and i cant get the sub speaker wires out of the amp to put the volt meter wires in. It looks like this, dont know if thats a screw or what Ive even tried pushing down on those gold holes hoping its a release but nothing.

GolNat

iTrader: (7)

It looks like you need to use an Allen key (in the gold holes) . Most either have Allen keys, or Phillips head screws.

Civicnoobie

Hey i got it off! I did all the steps in Kennys DIY on here, put all the head units EQ settings to default and all filters and boosts to off. Connected the DMM and the number i was needing is 28.28V so i set mine to 26V. Figured set a bit lower just to be safe. Is that ok?

Then after i went back to my head unit and readjusted my EQ and all settings on it and figured id do another VM test to see if it changed and it did! 23! So I turned the gains up a bit more to get back up to 25.9V.

Reinstalled eveything.

The dumbass who installed my amp 2yrs ago made these screws way too tight and when i pulled the wire out, half of the wire ends were shreded and stuck inside the jack so i had to clean it out and restriped some fresh wire and put it back in. More wire with no shreded ends should give best signal.

Kennykid2002

iTrader: (1)

I don't know how pioneer decks work, but most decks should have a control on your high's mid's and low's, allowing you to adjust each.
What I'm saying is that make sure you aren't sending out more bass than you calculated for.
Setting your Low EQs, and your Sub EQ's will throw off your calculations.

26 is fine, you would be fine at 27~28 as well (Depending if your sub is overpowering your speakers)
I would adjust it to taste. If 400RMS is too much for your system, lower it a bit.

Like I said earlier, my W3 can easily handle 500, but I set it to around 320, simply because I don't have an amp for my speakers, and the bass is way too loud.
I like how my sub compliments my music, not take over.

After you reset all your EQ's and did another voltage test, did you turn off all your EQ's again?
Because that's the point of the test; to have your voltage set correctly with EQ's off.
If the voltage is correct when the EQ's are off, I wouldn't touch it again after changing my EQ's back.

Civicnoobie

I know what you mean, the 5 band EQ right? I have the low EQs on -2 and my EQ goes from -6 to +6. I have pretty much no bass coming from my speakers. My subs EQ from my head unit is like -10 and that ranges ffrom -24 to +6. My old sub i had around -6 but now that this one is double the power ill probably have it lower.

Actually i turned all the EQs off from the head unit, did the test, set to 26. Then after turned my EQs and settings back to where it was on my head unit, did another test cause was curious if it would change cause you said it would. And it was 23. So then i bumped up the gain a tad smear til 26. You think i should re-do it?

Cause technically if I didnt readjust the gains from 23 back to 26 like it was at first, then it would only be 23.

What you think? Redo it?

My gains are 4/6 notches and bass boost i had to have 3/6 notches. I really tried to keep the bass boost at 0 but even turning gains all the way up, it wouldnt hit anywhere near 26V. If thats the case, then should i be adjusting the bass from the head unit? Im able to adjust my sub standalone bass level.

Kennykid2002

iTrader: (1)

Yep,
Turn off all your EQ's
Turn up the Sub EQ till you reach your voltage, keep bass boost at 0

Adjust your EQ's back to normal, and just leave it as is

Civicnoobie

Ok will do it again. But if i keep my amp bass boost at 0, I cant get the voltage at anywhere near 28 or even 26V, even with the gain at full. So should I then turn up the bass from the head unit? The only way i was able to get 26 was to turn up bass boost.

I thought bass boost was good and safe to run on the amp?

Kennykid2002

iTrader: (1)

Turn up the bass EQ from the head unit until you reach the voltage you need.

Bass boost creates clipping, and distortion
If you want clean, nice bass, without straining your subs to death, you don't want to use it.

Civicnoobie

I wonder why amps put bass boost on there, they shouldnt if its bad for the subs.

I redid it and turned the sub bass from the headunit up and just a few notches from max. And it didnt seem to make any difference! I still couldnt get the gain up to 28.8 or even close to it with the gain up and bass boost off.

Because my sub is a sealed box, I turned the freq on the amp to 80hz. Before it was at like 125! Way too high. I notice when you turn the freq down, the voltage drops and you have to run the gain higher.

The best i was able to get it at was 6 notces from max on the head unit sub bass level, gain 4/6 and bass boost at 2.5/6. Right now im at 27V.

Why cant i get the 28.8 without the bass boost on? Cause im pretty sure i dont want to be having the gain at max.

My head unit has a general bass level where it increases bass on speakers and sub. And it also has standalone bass level for the sub alone. And also the 5 band EQ which 2 bands adjust bass. I have the general bass level at min. Im wondering if i should turn this up and it will help get the Voltage up on the MM, but then it will turn up the bass on the speakers and i dont want that.

Civicnoobie

Just did it for the 3rd time and hopefully no more!

That was it! The general bass boost on the head unit did it! This is the general bass on the head unit that boosts the bass of the sub AND speakers so not sure if its bass boost. I had it on 0/6, so turned it up to 4/6, then I was able to turn up my gain to 28.28V (actually have it set on 27.5 if thats ok) with bass boost on the amp completely OFF and still have my freq at 80hz.

My gain is 4/6
My bass boost is 0/6
My freq is 80hz

I readjusted my settings on the head unit after and turned down the 1 bass band on the 5 band EQ on the head unit from -2 (what was before) to -6 (lowest) to take away the bass coming to the speakers and it sounds amazing, a lot better. I have literally 0 bass coming out of my speakers at 70% volume. Yay for no more clipping

The system sounds MUCH better.

Its ok that after I set my gain, that i put my settings on the head unit back to where i wanted it right?

ill never understand why you set the gain with 0 settings when thats not what you will be listening it to at.

Kennykid2002

iTrader: (1)

It just works that way.

Bass boost is there for people who know how to effectively tune their system, especially for SPL competitions.
I highly recommend that it's not used unless you have an O-Scope to properly set your amps. That way, you can visually see when your subs are clipping.

You not being able to reach your voltage without help of the headunit means your amp isn't capable of providing enough power to the subs on it's own.
That's what happened when I used to have my Sony Xplod amp. I had SUB EQ on 6/10 and Gain at max before I reached my goal voltage.

With my new JL 500/1v2, I currently have SUB EQ on 0/10 and gain about 2/3rds of the way up, and reached my target voltage.

Civicnoobie

After i set my gain, and everything is good and hooked it back up. I went back to my head unit and readjusted my settings and EQ back to where it was, is that ok? Didnt change the 27.5 I set?

Kennykid2002

iTrader: (1)

It probably would change, but it'll be fine, just leave it there

Civicnoobie

But how do you do it so it doesnt change after? Dont tell me i would have to leave the settings on default cause that would make no sense.

Kennykid2002

iTrader: (1)

Just leave it alone lol
That's why u set it for 0 EQ at the max you'll listen to so it'll be correct.

28V is basically the max you'll go, normal listening will be a lower voltage.

Civicnoobie

I did set it to 0EQ first. I just dont understand why setting gain isnt done with the settings you want on your HU first (and not 0) cause thats what itll be played at. Cause if the number changes anyways after i set back my settings on the HU, whats the point even doing it.

Kennykid2002

iTrader: (1)

I'm not qualified enough to explain it haha.

It sounds good, just leave it as is lol. You should have clean bass now

Civicnoobie

It does but i just hope i dont end up overdriving my sub again. Really dont like replacing and having to re-break in subs