Civic Overheating at Idle
09-01-2014
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Civic Overheating at Idle
New member and figured this would be the best place to ask my question.
My 03 Civic has almost 285k on it, mostly highway miles and as of yet hasn't needed any major repair.
I noticed a couple of weeks ago that the temperature would go above the halfway point and sometimes even climb to the 3/4 mark. This would only happen when I wasn't driving or driving in a parking lot or something (so basically stopped)
Fans are working fine. No white smoke. No water/coolant in oil. Plus, the engine would only overheat at idle or VERY nearly idle. As soon as I would start driving, the temp would shoot back down.
I took it into a shop Friday and a couple hours later they call me to tell me it's the head gasket....repair cost is 1330. From what I had read and from what a mechanic friend had told me, it was most likely not the head gasket so I take it to the shop across the street.
They say VERY unlikely it's head gasket and showed me that my radiator is leaking (thus there has been loss of coolant). There is residue on the bottom of my car so that confirms that. I'm about to get that replaced along with factory thermostat.
I'm thinking I should get a third opinion tomorrow. What is the likelihood that it's the head gasket? The oil is super clean, I just got it replaced last week. Is there anything I can do myself to make sure it is or is not the head gasket? What does it sound like it is to you guys (if anything besides the radiator)?
Thanks
My 03 Civic has almost 285k on it, mostly highway miles and as of yet hasn't needed any major repair.
I noticed a couple of weeks ago that the temperature would go above the halfway point and sometimes even climb to the 3/4 mark. This would only happen when I wasn't driving or driving in a parking lot or something (so basically stopped)
Fans are working fine. No white smoke. No water/coolant in oil. Plus, the engine would only overheat at idle or VERY nearly idle. As soon as I would start driving, the temp would shoot back down.
I took it into a shop Friday and a couple hours later they call me to tell me it's the head gasket....repair cost is 1330. From what I had read and from what a mechanic friend had told me, it was most likely not the head gasket so I take it to the shop across the street.
They say VERY unlikely it's head gasket and showed me that my radiator is leaking (thus there has been loss of coolant). There is residue on the bottom of my car so that confirms that. I'm about to get that replaced along with factory thermostat.
I'm thinking I should get a third opinion tomorrow. What is the likelihood that it's the head gasket? The oil is super clean, I just got it replaced last week. Is there anything I can do myself to make sure it is or is not the head gasket? What does it sound like it is to you guys (if anything besides the radiator)?
Thanks
09-01-2014
#2
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Civic Overheating at Idle
New member
There is residue on the bottom of my car so that confirms that.
What is the likelihood that it's the head gasket?
I'm thinking I should get a third opinion tomorrow.
I'd be able to prove it good or bad if I had it in my bay at work, but "proof" doesn't help if the owner can't understand how it all works.
Head gasket breach is easy to verify and prove (IMO) IF one performs the correct diagnostic step.
The common tests that everyone talks about won't normally find this one....unless it's a horrendous leak.
09-01-2014
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Welcome to the "bad news it's a head gasket" forum!
I bet it came out of the reservoir, not the radiator. Battery tray could have some in it too.
Very. It's what they do best.
Opinions are like.....
I'd be able to prove it good or bad if I had it in my bay at work, but "proof" doesn't help if the owner can't understand how it all works.
Head gasket breach is easy to verify and prove (IMO) IF one performs the correct diagnostic step.
The common tests that everyone talks about won't normally find this one....unless it's a horrendous leak.
I bet it came out of the reservoir, not the radiator. Battery tray could have some in it too.
Very. It's what they do best.
Opinions are like.....
I'd be able to prove it good or bad if I had it in my bay at work, but "proof" doesn't help if the owner can't understand how it all works.
Head gasket breach is easy to verify and prove (IMO) IF one performs the correct diagnostic step.
The common tests that everyone talks about won't normally find this one....unless it's a horrendous leak.
Nope, none on the battery tray. It's definitely coming out of the bottom. From looks of it, the radiator and not the overflow.
None of the symptoms that were told to me to detect head gasket were present. Further, that repair shop that I went to that said head gasket has been wrong before. I just don't want to pay for a repair that isn't needed. If it's head gasket, that's fine and I'll get it fixed but I don't want to get thermostat and radiator done if it is in fact the head gasket.
I don't know about if it's, "what they do best." No one else I talked to with a civic has had this issue. Further...after 285k miles, I'm not sure I would classify it as "what they do best." But that's just me.
09-01-2014
#4
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Civic Overheating at Idle
None of the symptoms that were told to me to detect head gasket were present.
It won't mix fluids, the oil won't be milky, the radiator won't have oil in it, it won't send clouds of steam out the tailpipe, it won't leak down the side of the engine, compression will appear to be perfect, and most of the time it will pass a block checker fluid test (unless the problem is quite large)..
This engine will typically push liquid out of the radiator and into the reservoir, causing it to either be overfull or overflow and spill. At the same time, the radiator is found to be low, along with most average symptoms of low coolant level in the radiator. And it can take a long time to do this, it's a slow process at the onset. Most people don't notice anything until it gets hot on a highway trip.
Your initial symptoms are consistent with loss of liquid from the radiator. You say they found the radiator leaking, so that explains the coolant loss.......
BUT now that it has been run hot there is the very real possibility it could have compromised the head gasket integrity.
You should now know the symptoms to watch out for once it's back on the road again.
Further, that repair shop that I went to that said head gasket has been wrong before.
Since I can't check any of it myself, I can only guess while sitting in my recliner.
I just don't want to pay for a repair that isn't needed.
If it's head gasket, that's fine and I'll get it fixed but I don't want to get thermostat and radiator done if it is in fact the head gasket.
1) Put pressure (~15 PSI) on the radiator/cooling system to make it leak so the source of leakage can be located. (If you can't prove the leak is from the radiator or hoses or anything external, then I'd suspect it probably came out of the reservoir overflowing.)
2) Boil test the thermostat (Just replace it if it's even a question, it's cheap. And I'd agree on the use of a factory stat, as you already mentioned.)
3) Air pressure check the cylinders to figure out if the head gasket has been breached. At the shop, I can have this done in about 15 minutes if the leak shows up right away.
I don't know about if it's, "what they do best." No one else I talked to with a civic has had this issue.
It's a huge, well known issue with 7th gens. Not all do it, but it sure seems that most do sooner or later. Some went before the cars got out of warranty. The one I saw Friday only had 70k on it.
Further...after 285k miles, I'm not sure I would classify it as "what they do best." But that's just me.
09-01-2014
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Ok, if you can see where it's leaking then that's a great place to start. Fix that first and see how it goes.
What were you told?
It won't mix fluids, the oil won't be milky, the radiator won't have oil in it, it won't send clouds of steam out the tailpipe, it won't leak down the side of the engine, compression will appear to be perfect, and most of the time it will pass a block checker fluid test (unless the problem is quite large)..
This engine will typically push liquid out of the radiator and into the reservoir, causing it to either be overfull or overflow and spill. At the same time, the radiator is found to be low, along with most average symptoms of low coolant level in the radiator. And it can take a long time to do this, it's a slow process at the onset. Most people don't notice anything until it gets hot on a highway trip.
Your initial symptoms are consistent with loss of liquid from the radiator. You say they found the radiator leaking, so that explains the coolant loss.......
BUT now that it has been run hot there is the very real possibility it could have compromised the head gasket integrity.
You should now know the symptoms to watch out for once it's back on the road again.
That goes both ways. Many people I have worked with have no idea how to prove one of these is bad. Others just call it without proof.
Since I can't check any of it myself, I can only guess while sitting in my recliner.
Understood.
Each of these can be tested and proven good or bad.
1) Put pressure (~15 PSI) on the radiator/cooling system to make it leak so the source of leakage can be located. (If you can't prove the leak is from the radiator or hoses or anything external, then I'd suspect it probably came out of the reservoir overflowing.)
2) Boil test the thermostat (Just replace it if it's even a question, it's cheap. And I'd agree on the use of a factory stat, as you already mentioned.)
3) Air pressure check the cylinders to figure out if the head gasket has been breached. At the shop, I can have this done in about 15 minutes if the leak shows up right away.
Search for overheating, no heat, and head gasket on 2001-05 Civics.
It's a huge, well known issue with 7th gens. Not all do it, but it sure seems that most do sooner or later. Some went before the cars got out of warranty. The one I saw Friday only had 70k on it.
Oooh you got a good one!
What were you told?
It won't mix fluids, the oil won't be milky, the radiator won't have oil in it, it won't send clouds of steam out the tailpipe, it won't leak down the side of the engine, compression will appear to be perfect, and most of the time it will pass a block checker fluid test (unless the problem is quite large)..
This engine will typically push liquid out of the radiator and into the reservoir, causing it to either be overfull or overflow and spill. At the same time, the radiator is found to be low, along with most average symptoms of low coolant level in the radiator. And it can take a long time to do this, it's a slow process at the onset. Most people don't notice anything until it gets hot on a highway trip.
Your initial symptoms are consistent with loss of liquid from the radiator. You say they found the radiator leaking, so that explains the coolant loss.......
BUT now that it has been run hot there is the very real possibility it could have compromised the head gasket integrity.
You should now know the symptoms to watch out for once it's back on the road again.
That goes both ways. Many people I have worked with have no idea how to prove one of these is bad. Others just call it without proof.
Since I can't check any of it myself, I can only guess while sitting in my recliner.
Understood.
Each of these can be tested and proven good or bad.
1) Put pressure (~15 PSI) on the radiator/cooling system to make it leak so the source of leakage can be located. (If you can't prove the leak is from the radiator or hoses or anything external, then I'd suspect it probably came out of the reservoir overflowing.)
2) Boil test the thermostat (Just replace it if it's even a question, it's cheap. And I'd agree on the use of a factory stat, as you already mentioned.)
3) Air pressure check the cylinders to figure out if the head gasket has been breached. At the shop, I can have this done in about 15 minutes if the leak shows up right away.
Search for overheating, no heat, and head gasket on 2001-05 Civics.
It's a huge, well known issue with 7th gens. Not all do it, but it sure seems that most do sooner or later. Some went before the cars got out of warranty. The one I saw Friday only had 70k on it.
Oooh you got a good one!
Thanks for all of the great info. I thought they all lasted (at least) that long.
A friend of mine came over and we did a compression test on the cylinders. All came back at around 170-180. Did the boiling water test on the thermostat but it's opening and closing as it should. I'm going to replace it anyways tomorrow with one from the dealer, as you suggested.
With the compression test, my friend (a mechanic) reiterated what the second shop said...probably not the head. Though he also echoed your sentiments too before testing it, that sometimes the signs aren't so obvious. We also checked the spark plugs for signs of deposits or corrosion and there was none. One thing though was that the car wasn't completely warm. It had been turned on for about ten minutes an hour or so prior though.
I'm hoping these are good signs? I appreciate all of your help.
09-01-2014
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Also, are all of those signs (milky oil, white smoke, etc.) signs that show up later on when the head gasket has gotten really bad?
With compression test done and no liquid in the cylinders, how can I tell the source of the overheating?
Better yet, what should I tell the shop to do to confirm whether it's the head gasket?
With compression test done and no liquid in the cylinders, how can I tell the source of the overheating?
Better yet, what should I tell the shop to do to confirm whether it's the head gasket?
Last edited by akronoh77; 09-01-2014 at 07:59 PM. Reason: Another Question
09-01-2014
#7
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Civic Overheating at Idle
Here's some copy&paste from another thread, with bolding:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout1
1. Chemical test for exhaust in the radiator - passed.
2 Pressure tested radiator and it passed.
3 Tried to leave pressure tester on for a long time but it slowly blows out. the adapter is like a big rubber plug and won't hold for more than about 15 minutes. But holds pressure and no leaks for that period of time.
Originally Posted by Scout1
1. Chemical test for exhaust in the radiator - passed.
2 Pressure tested radiator and it passed.
3 Tried to leave pressure tester on for a long time but it slowly blows out. the adapter is like a big rubber plug and won't hold for more than about 15 minutes. But holds pressure and no leaks for that period of time.
My procedure:
Start with a hot engine, pull out plugs and rad cap:
Pressurize each cylinder (@TDC, one at a time) with shop air line pressure 170+ PSI. Watch for the coolant level to rise when you get to the bad one. (sometimes this is a slow process)
If no results, then wait for the engine to cool down and repeat this same procedure on each cylinder.
If it passes this test, then it's probably ok right now.
Quote:
I have a leakdown tester and will try the cylinder test tommorrow(have family stuff today).
I have a leakdown tester and will try the cylinder test tommorrow(have family stuff today).
It might be ok for measuring leakage (what it's designed for), but it is truly worthless for proving any but the absolute worst cases of blown head gaskets. I don't even bother to use mine to find things like valve leakage, I use shop air line pressure.
Shop air line pressure is much closer to actual cylinder working pressures. (170 PSI vs. 30 PSI, vs. 300-800 PSI during combustion).
When these things first start showing their signs of failure, the RATE of leakage is usually very small and slow, such that it can take a few hours of sustained highway driving before it has displaced sufficient liquid to cause noticeable overheating.
You are not going to find something like that with only 30 PSI in a cylinder. Even when I use 170 PSI it can take some time before any results can be seen (some are much faster than others), but this method has not failed me yet.
I take into account all the other symptoms I see, and if those symptoms lead me to perform this test, then I already know what to expect from this test. This test is primarily providing PROOF of the suspicion, and identifying which cylinder(s) have the issue.
I use this test when someone comes in saying another shop said they need a head gasket, and when another shop swears it can't be a head gasket too. Answer in 15 minutes, tops, most of the time.
Quote:
appears that the radiator flows to the expansion tank like it is supposed to but it doesn't go back into the radiator when it cools.
appears that the radiator flows to the expansion tank like it is supposed to but it doesn't go back into the radiator when it cools.
That means, primarily, cap and neck sealing problems and pinholes in the overflow hose......... or blown head gasket displacing the coolant OUT of the radiator.
If you have read other posts, the reservoir typically overflows and spills all over the battery area, fan and shroud, and subframe. Meanwhile, the radiator is found to be quite low.
09-01-2014
#8
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Civic Overheating at Idle
Duh...
Your symptoms sounded like low coolant level, can't dissipate heat efficiently. .... If you find the source of the coolant loss, that would be the cause.
If it overheated bad enough to damage the head gasket, that might be collateral damage.....unless the head gasket was the cause of the coolant loss and overheating.
Not typical symptoms at first.....Maybe after the head has warped badly from overheating.
Sometimes damage from an overheat event can take a long time to show itself too..
how can I tell the source of the overheating?
If it overheated bad enough to damage the head gasket, that might be collateral damage.....unless the head gasket was the cause of the coolant loss and overheating.
white smoke, etc.) signs that show up later on when the head gasket has gotten really bad?
Sometimes damage from an overheat event can take a long time to show itself too..
09-02-2014
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Duh...
Your symptoms sounded like low coolant level, can't dissipate heat efficiently. .... If you find the source of the coolant loss, that would be the cause.
If it overheated bad enough to damage the head gasket, that might be collateral damage.....unless the head gasket was the cause of the coolant loss and overheating.
Not typical symptoms at first.....Maybe after the head has warped badly from overheating.
Sometimes damage from an overheat event can take a long time to show itself too..
Your symptoms sounded like low coolant level, can't dissipate heat efficiently. .... If you find the source of the coolant loss, that would be the cause.
If it overheated bad enough to damage the head gasket, that might be collateral damage.....unless the head gasket was the cause of the coolant loss and overheating.
Not typical symptoms at first.....Maybe after the head has warped badly from overheating.
Sometimes damage from an overheat event can take a long time to show itself too..
Replaced my thermostat and took it to aamco this morning. After checking it for about an hour the guy said, without a doubt, not the head gasket. Said they did three tests and checked the water pump as well. Said that coolant showed no signs of carbon but I wonder how long it would take for that to show up since I had put new coolant in this morning.
He cleaned off some debris from the radiator and confirmed what the previous shop said, that the radiator is leaking. Said it lost 4 lbs of pressure in 15 min. Quoted about 425 for radiator replacement and flush/refill.
Said I should get it done soon as it could result in a blown head gasket down the line.
09-02-2014
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09-02-2014
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2/3 shops don't seem to agree with you (after looking at it, no less). It's not about "wanting to admit it."
Besides, wouldn't they make more off me if it was blown? Why wouldn't they want to admit it if it were the case.
I'm not so much worried about paying for it as much as getting the wrong repair done and having to be without my car. I have an 09 Accord too. I want to get the correct job done, which you don't seem to understand.
09-02-2014
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Re: Civic Overheating at Idle
09-02-2014
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Went to Honda this morning actually to get my thermostat. Didn't inspect yet but talked to a couple mechanics there and said it doesn't sound like head gasket since there are some very tell-tale signs on that model Civic.
Said it's around 100 to inspect it.
09-02-2014
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Re: Civic Overheating at Idle
Replaced my thermostat and took it to aamco this morning. After checking it for about an hour the guy said, without a doubt, not the head gasket. Said they did three tests and checked the water pump as well. Said that coolant showed no signs of carbon but I wonder how long it would take for that to show up since I had put new coolant in this morning.
He cleaned off some debris from the radiator and confirmed what the previous shop said, that the radiator is leaking. Said it lost 4 lbs of pressure in 15 min. Quoted about 425 for radiator replacement and flush/refill.
Said I should get it done soon as it could result in a blown head gasket down the line.
He cleaned off some debris from the radiator and confirmed what the previous shop said, that the radiator is leaking. Said it lost 4 lbs of pressure in 15 min. Quoted about 425 for radiator replacement and flush/refill.
Said I should get it done soon as it could result in a blown head gasket down the line.
09-02-2014
#15
Re: Civic Overheating at Idle
No, of course they don't.
Went to Honda this morning actually to get my thermostat. Didn't inspect yet but talked to a couple mechanics there and said it doesn't sound like head gasket since there are some very tell-tale signs on that model Civic.
Said it's around 100 to inspect it.
Went to Honda this morning actually to get my thermostat. Didn't inspect yet but talked to a couple mechanics there and said it doesn't sound like head gasket since there are some very tell-tale signs on that model Civic.
Said it's around 100 to inspect it.
your issue will not be fixed until you replace your head gasket,
good luck on the journey till you get there
09-02-2014
#16
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Civic Overheating at Idle
I too hope the engine turns out OK after all this, and at least the OP should now know a couple of the common symptoms to look for as he drives it into the future......
But now I read a bunch of comments .....so I'll jump in some more! LOL
I was gonna ask which three tests they may have performed to determine the head gasket is not a problem as of yet.
Then I read:
(That's CO2).....Right, they almost always pass that test even when it's clearly blown.
Did they do the ONE test I described (bolded in a previous quote) that I use to prove these head gaskets as good or bad?
C'mon, you're going to a transmission chain store for this?
Automatic assumptions are in effect.
1/3 of those DID say it was a head gasket.
I wonder what conclusions an experienced Honda specialist would arrive at if given the opportunity to test your car?
Mikey, it's been my experience that about 2/3 of the dealers (or their personnel) are in the same boat.
Remember: The majority of shops, dealer or independent, will never employ a full staff of top-gun techs. Guess what that leaves.....
Sounds like those two dealer guys may be worthy!
And that's less than the fee at my shop.
Not necessarily...... Or maybe 'not yet'.
There may be reasons.
You might better understand why I said this if you were in the business of working on cars.
I'm not in that business.
But now I read a bunch of comments .....so I'll jump in some more! LOL
Said they did three tests
Then I read:
Said that coolant showed no signs of carbon
Did they do the ONE test I described (bolded in a previous quote) that I use to prove these head gaskets as good or bad?
took it to aamco
Automatic assumptions are in effect.
2/3 shops don't seem to agree with you
I wonder what conclusions an experienced Honda specialist would arrive at if given the opportunity to test your car?
more then 2/3 of shops and mechanics out there dont know how to properly diagnose a blown head gasket on these engines,
have you been to a HONDA DEALER to have this issue looked at?
have you been to a HONDA DEALER to have this issue looked at?
Remember: The majority of shops, dealer or independent, will never employ a full staff of top-gun techs. Guess what that leaves.....
but talked to a couple mechanics there and said it doesn't sound like head gasket since there are some very tell-tale signs on that model Civic.
Said it's around 100 to inspect it.
wouldn't they make more off me if it was blown?
Why wouldn't they want to admit it if it were the case.
You might better understand why I said this if you were in the business of working on cars.
I'm not in that business.
09-02-2014
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Questions have been asked by the OP and opinions have been offered in good faith...
I read this forum daily. Everyday. I do this because it only takes a few minutes and I gain knowledge and ideas.
My household also has a 8th gen corolla and I read the Toyota Nation forum often too, but not daily. This forum is way better for fast responses and DIY procedures. I'm an amateur mechanic and I recognize that there are many contributors to this forum that have experience with these cars that I don't have. I see these folks help others regularly on this forum.
The OP isn't convinced and we are only reading, the OP is seeing. Nobody's opinion should offend the OP. He needs to take it cautiously and go at a pace he is comfortable with to resolve his Civic overheating issue. If it turns out to be a head gasket, he will have some added experience and the knowledge that goes along with it.
I hope its just a radiator and the OP gets many more miles from their Civic. Please let us know if the radiator solves the issue. Since the radiator is leaking, its not maintaining pressure, so the boiling point is lower. You get the same thing with a bad radiator cap. Whenever air isn't passing over the car it overheats. After the leaks are dealt with the OP can see whats what.
If it were me, I'd pull my plugs and use shop air to see if I can get bubbles in my radiator. It'd be free for me but my Civic isn't overheating or belching coolant...
I read this forum daily. Everyday. I do this because it only takes a few minutes and I gain knowledge and ideas.
My household also has a 8th gen corolla and I read the Toyota Nation forum often too, but not daily. This forum is way better for fast responses and DIY procedures. I'm an amateur mechanic and I recognize that there are many contributors to this forum that have experience with these cars that I don't have. I see these folks help others regularly on this forum.
The OP isn't convinced and we are only reading, the OP is seeing. Nobody's opinion should offend the OP. He needs to take it cautiously and go at a pace he is comfortable with to resolve his Civic overheating issue. If it turns out to be a head gasket, he will have some added experience and the knowledge that goes along with it.
I hope its just a radiator and the OP gets many more miles from their Civic. Please let us know if the radiator solves the issue. Since the radiator is leaking, its not maintaining pressure, so the boiling point is lower. You get the same thing with a bad radiator cap. Whenever air isn't passing over the car it overheats. After the leaks are dealt with the OP can see whats what.
If it were me, I'd pull my plugs and use shop air to see if I can get bubbles in my radiator. It'd be free for me but my Civic isn't overheating or belching coolant...
Last edited by bsmiley; 09-02-2014 at 08:26 PM.
09-02-2014
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OP, you can try the below yourself after you get your other issues fixed.
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...ml#post4629441
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...ml#post4629441
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