Najitsu

I recently had my mechanic install an Exedy (KHC08) OEM replacement clutch in my 2002 Honda Civic EX. The first day of driving it I have noticed a shudder/judder only when i shift into 1st gear and a subtly judder when shifting from 1st into 2nd. My mechanic said that the front wheel bearings are going bad as well which wasn't a noise i heard before dropping the car off for service. I can tell that this shudder/judder isn't coming from the wheels but from the transmission/clutch. It doesn't sound like an input shaft bearing, since the sound only happens when i'm launching into 1st gear and i have been taking it easy shifting at about 3k rpms and no speed shifting. This sound only happens in 1st and 2nd at low rpms from what i can tell so far.

Does anyone have experience with something similar to this? I read on the forums that this can be normal for a new clutch to break it that it will go away after about 500 miles of stop and go traffic. However, i have also heard this could have been due to improper installation? anyone know for sure? I will ask my mechanic what he thinks as well Monday and update this thread with what he tells me.

Thank you for your help in advance!

mikey1

i cant say for sure, but it does not sound normal to me,

i hope the shop that did the work gave you some kind of warranty on this repair,

as for the wheel bearings......a bad wheel bearing will make noise ALL the time (while the car is moving) it wont come and go, it will also get louder the faster you go

ezone

You call this "shudder/judder" in one line, then call it a "noise" in another. The words mean very different things in my world.

Is your complaint about a noise, or is your complaint about a shake/vibration?


To elaborate:

Clutch shudder would only occur during times of clutch slippage under load, such as upon initial takeoff before the clutch disc and flywheel/pressure plate parts have attained equal speeds.
Shudder would feel as though the whole engine and transmission are violently shaking back and forth very rapidly.



Disc noise, on the other hand, would occur under the same condition as the shudder above, only this is a noise instead of a shake. The ones I have heard occasionally make a sort of "whoop" or high pitched "wheep" sound during some periods of slippage under load---as in during initial takeoff from a stop. Not every time, seems as though conditions have to be "just right" to have the noise happen.


If you are slipping the clutch at any time other than initial takeoff, you're doing it wrong.

kinakoes2

Bleed your clutch hydraulics, see if that improves the judder any.

Najitsu

It is clutch shudder it only occurs on initial take off and I noticed it subtly did this into the 2nd gear. I only have about 30 miles on it. This is a new clutch and resurfaced flywheel.

bsmiley

I had a little bit of clutch shudder and I replaced both the Master & Slave cylinders. Bleeding was challenging, but I used a vacuum bleeder and got all the air out of the lines very quick and easy.
Clutch shudder is gone and pedal has more pressure and feel. My car has 160K miles and I have no idea when the clutch was replaced... but its disengaging/engaging properly now.
I don't know if it was the Master, Slave or air in the lines, it may have been a combination between them.
I'm in amateur so take my opinion as just that and don't give it the weight that you would give an expert opinion.
Please post when you get this resolved...

kinakoes2

Najitsu, I have a manual EX and also some recurring judder. But my flywheel is most likely warped by now, and the existing clutch is OEM at 150K... so some is expected.

But when I properly bled my clutch a few weeks ago (fluid hadn't been change in who knows how long), the delicate-feeling engagement and high engagement was much improved, and it was less prone to juddering when cold or when the weather was rainy. This I blame on the slave cylinder, since when bleeding it I found a lot of debris and rust, which will eventually cause the seal to fail.

Rebuilding the slave will most likely bring more of the reliable engagement and less fussiness back to my clutch engagement.

ezone

Something as (seemingly) minor as a greasy thumbprint on a friction surface could cause it.

Misassembly, warpage, etc. Many possibilities within the clutch job itself, then you have engine and trans mounts to consider.
I didn't think about the hydraulics simply because I don't open up that system when I pull a trans off....I guess others might.


And Honda does not recommend resurfacing their flywheels.

Najitsu

I had my mechanic do a lot of work on the vehicle. The 100k service plus a new clutch.

So I had him replace the clutch and he had the flywheel resurfaced (thought this was a must when installing a new clutch). Had the timing belt service done including a new water pump and serpentine belts along with crank and cam seals. He also replaced the engine coolant, Manual transmission fluid, brake fluid, and power steering fluid. I bought all the parts and paid for his labor. He did a lot of work for me for a very good price ($650).

I drove the car to work tonight and I only noticed the shudder/judder (vibration from where i believe the clutch meets the transmission) when i would launch into 1st gear at around 1k-2k rpm. I launched from 3k rpm and i didn't really notice this shudder/judder. Haven't had much time to drive the vehicle but will drive more tomorrow after work and see if it's getting worse, staying the same or getting better.

I have been working nights this weekend, but will get more info from my mechanic Monday. I will also ask about the master a slave cylinders and bleeding the clutch. (i'm learning as i go, but bleeding the clutch? is that a clutch fluid line?)
I have also noticed that the input shaft bearing is making noise with the clutch not pressed in. when i press in the clutch the noise goes away. Thanks to the forums on this issue i was able to diagnose that issue with the trans. thanks guys!

I will update everyone when i find out more Monday. Thank you all for your help so far.

Najitsu

I have been doing a little research tonight about my vehicle and from what i'm reading about our 7th gen honda civic 5 spds is that they have bad input shaft bearings (common issue for our transmission) which is the noise i'm hearing while it's in neutral. And if these bearings go bad i read on another forum that it will destroy your transmission......wish i knew this before buying the vehicle i have about $4,000 so far invested in this vehicle.

Sounds like i should buy all the parts needed and find a reputable shop in town to replace the necessary components in my transmission in order to get this vehicle to 200k+ miles.

What do you guys think? since i may need to get the clutch checked anyways it would make sense to replace everything once and for all?

ezone

You can't use old-school thinking on new designs, nor do some of the things that worked on other brands. Specs and procedures are printed for a reason.

I have had the best luck by not doing anything with the flywheel, unless damaged so bad it's unusable.
YMMV.
Yes. Instead of mechanical clutch linkage or a clutch cable, your clutch pedal is connected to the trans through a hydraulic system, very similar to the brake hydraulic system.

Depends on how bad the bearing noise is. All of them may make some amount of noise, the question must become "how bad is it?"

HTH

Najitsu

It's most notable in 1st and 2nd gear when accelerating. when i'm in idle i can hear the noise, but when i press in the clutch the noise goes away. Also as i mentioned before about the clutch judder/shudder when launching into 1st gear around 1500 rpm is still making the same noise not getting any worse or better as far as i can tell.

Since the flywheel was resurfaced, will i have to replace it?

and I haven't gotten a hold of my mechanic yet but will call in the morning. When i had him do all the work on the civic, a new problem happened. The front wheel bearings were bad.....they will make a humming noise when driving at faster speeds. I drove the vehicle 200 miles when i first got it with the slipping clutch and never had any of these noises.
Do you have to do anything to the wheel bearing in order to get to the clutch?

ezone

Remove the axles. That means taking the big nut off the end at the hubs and bearings. That raises questions of, were the big nuts properly tightened, or were they left too loose?

Man, I've done all sorts of stuff over the years and the only time I know for sure that I actually caused a FWD wheel bearing to go bad (and it was obvious by the time I hit about 25 MPH) was when I didn't get one axle nut tight enough....and it wasn't on a Honda.


No, you can do whatever you want with it. Use it as a Frisbee for all I care.
It's not like the mattress police that will come around looking for the tags that say 'do not remove.'
/smartass

If there was absolutely no problem with the clutch, then I'd say just leave it alone.
But you have a clutch issue, and that raises suspicions about the whole thing. Measure for excess runout/warpage, inspect surface finish, etc. (check torque of the flywheel bolts?)
If it's deemed that the flywheel is the cause, then of course it's recommended to replace it. But you don't know that part yet.

Hmmm. There's an awful lot of stuff that's suddenly not right, huh? Improper procedures seem like a possibility........Wonder if the clutch parts were just slammed in with an impact gun instead of drawn down evenly?

Yeah, I know.
Noises are subjective.
I can pick out all sorts of noises in some of the transmissions if I really listen. I can't condemn every last one, because some noise is normal and expected.

You probably need to hear a few that are REALLY bad (and really good) in order to better judge how much noise yours makes.

A really bad input shaft bearing might be loose enough to let the input shaft move around (radial play)


and cause clutch shudder. Something that bad would probably be making far more noise than just in 1 and 2 gears though.
Does it sound like a garbage truck?

Check youtube for bad trans noise examples.


Refer to post #3.

You could have both clutch noise and bearing noise. And shudder. 3 separate issues in the same area. Maybe you do, maybe you don't, I can't tell from here.

I can't drive the car, and I can't yet decipher just how many issues/vibrations/noises you have going on there.

Najitsu

So i now have 400-500 miles on the new clutch. The clutch is still shuddering when it tries engaging the flywheel from shifting into 1st gear. I had the front wheel bearings replaced and i can hear the vehicle a little better now.

1st and 2nd gear sound rough compared to the higher gears.

I will be taking it to my local Honda dealership to have the recall work done for the airbags and headlights. I'm going to ask them to diagnose/check out the transmission/clutch to find out whats going on with the vehicle. I'll update with info when i find out sometime this week.

Najitsu

Had the dealership take a look and they couldn't find anything wrong with the transmission or the clutch. They said that there is nothing that they can justify in rebuilding the transmission. They also didn't charge me for the diagnostic of the transmission since they couldn't find anything wrong.

The shudder only happens when i'm trying to engage the clutch to the flywheel at like 1200 rpm and this is partially due to it not engaging until the clutch pedal is almost fully released. So I will just get use to the new clutch and stop babying it. If the input shaft bearing gets worse down the road I will just save money now and prepare for when that time comes.
Thank you all for the help! I have learned a lot.

kinakoes2

I still have a bit of judder from my manual, and it's mostly when stone-cold or if the humidity is high, esp with the A/C on. Once warmed I still have that annoying 2mm engagement range, but it doesn't judder like the drivetrain is about to launch itself out from under the car.

Things that helped curb mine, were careful clutch bleeding... correctly-torqued lug nuts (this applies more towards shift quality than clutch engagement, but it helped both)... proper tire pressures... clean engine oil (engine wasn't struggling as much with load)... and a general lack of weight in the car (meaning it happened more right after a full tank of fuel, than at half-tank).

Hope this helps.

Najitsu

Thank you, Yeah I'm use to the clutch now and don't experience the shudder much unless i'm shifting into 1st going up hill. Even then I can prevent the Judder/Shudder by giving it more gas and shifting around 2K rpm. I actually prefer shifting into 1st at 2k-2500 rpm it increases acceleration and is much smoother as long as I slowly release the clutch and not pop it.

Now that I have close to 900 miles on the clutch accelerating sounds much better.

ezone

My truck has had a little clutch chatter for the last....maybe 15 years LOL.....I minimize it by engaging the clutch at very low RPM, then accelerating hard only after complete engagement.

Had it out today.... noticed I have actually put 500 miles on it since this time last year. LOL

Najitsu

That is another way I have also prevented the chatter. So...you have clutch chatter on your truck...but have only put 500 miles on it this year? lol
It's a little reassuring though that the truck has been running with this chatter for 15 years.

ezone

Yeah...OK maybe it's chattered for 17 years. I've had the truck since 1994, it was my DD until around 99-00 or so and I put about 60k on it in that time.

Had it painted in 97 and the clutch chattered a little when I got it back from the bodyshop. It's done it ever since then.

It was show-worthy with that paint job.... Now it's become just another toy, and I drag it out when I need to haul something. Probably haven't put 10k on it since 2000.

AC still works too (R-12 freon), never been touched by me in all this time.