scooty

03 LX, 99400 miles.

So my valves were fine and never made any sort of noise that I could hear at all.

Then I came across the valve adjustment DIY on here, and thought, hey what the hell? why not, I was bored anyway.

So I adjusted the valves exactly as in the DIY and now I can hear them ticking!!

The noise goes away somewhat when the engine heats up and is especially noticeable on a cold day start.

I've readjusted them at least 3 times and can't get the noise to go away. I wish I never had messed with them to begin with. Can some one please tell me what I'm doing wrong....this is very frustrating.

Here are some of the steps I've followed.

Made sure the engine has ample time to cool. Adjusted valves first thing in the morning after car had been sitting over night.

Turned each piston to its TDC before adjusting its valves. #1 TDC was when the Up mark on the cam pulley was pointing up. TDC for the remaining cylinders were a 90 degrees counter clockwise turn away on the cam pulley.

Followed firing order, adjusted valves for cylinders in the following order, 1,4,3,2.

Exhaust valves were adjusted until the .009 feeler gauge had a very noticeable drag. Intake valves were done the same way but with a .007 gauge.

Valve jam nuts were torqued down to 13 foot pounds, 2 clicks on the torque wrench.

All clearances were checked one last time after using the torque wrench to make sure nothing had changed.

I'll admit the first time I tried to adjust them I didn't do a good job and set some of them way too loose. The noise was really bad after that. The last time I did them I took my time and went real slow. Like I said there was a noticeable drag on the feeler gauge.

Is this enough? I could adjust them tighter until I would actually have to use some force to push in and remove the feeler gauge. It seems like it requires a very tiny turn on the valve nut to go from a slight drag to a LOT of drag on the feeler gauge.

I'm really not sure what I'm doing wrong. I'm almost ready to take it to the dealer.

whatsaricer

Just as an FYI which I learned while going to auto shop class, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Haha

In a more serious matter though I'm pretty sure these motors are known for valve train noise but don't take me for sure on that. I would wait till a more experienced Honda owner steps on. I don't know these cars too well. But if your adjustments are right and it measures ok I wouldnt worry too much. Like I said, I would wait for another opinion just to be safe.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

did you hold the bolts with a screw driver? I did not use a torque wrench for that reason. just checked what a 13lb feel on another bolt and used the normal wrench and a screwdriver to hold the bolt in place...

scooty

No I didn't hold the bolts with a screw driver. I noticed that using the torque wrench would increase the valve lash from my initial adjustment. I set my initial adjustment overly tight on the feeler gauge to compensate for this effect.

After using the torque wrench I rechecked clearances with the feeler gauge. Some times it was too loose so I readjusted it. This made the process especially tedious. However in the end before the valve cover went back on I made sure that all adjustments were good.

Despite these efforts I still here valve tap that I can hear from inside the car when accelerating away from a stop with the windows down. It's very noticeable. It goes away completely once the motor warms up though. I'm using Penzoil 5W-20.

pjb3

It sounds like you did it correctly.
I'm not sure I would worry about it too much as long as the sound is only while the engine is cold. I wonder if you hear the tick more now because you are listening for it.
If you should decide to adjust them further be careful not to go too tight. If you adjust too far the valves may not seat correctly which can cause a drop in compression and valves need to firmly seat in order to transfer heat.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

the specs are for a hot running engine too...so there is bound to be some differences in the way it runs before all the parts heat up and expand.

kriscotta

Followed firing order, adjusted valves for cylinders in the following order, 1,4,3,2.

may be a typo, but if not that could be the problem - I thought the order is
1 - 3 - 4 - 2
hope it was a typo

ezone

1,3,4,2 is the correct firing order.

localkineguy

Scooty, did you ever figure this problem out? My engine sounds fine right now; but like you, I am tempted to adjust my valves.

kinakoes2

Valve adjustment is sooo easy on these SOHC, screw-locknut adjuster cars, as long as you know what to look for. There aren't ever any cams to pull on these VTEC Hondas (or non- either, IIRC... motos are different though)!

Okay. So you *should* know, if you're adjusting valves, how they work, right? Cams have a base circle, or a portion of the 360 degrees where there isn't any valve lift. The middle of this period of zero lift, is usually top dead center (TDC) of the compression stroke (TDC-C). It's also where valve clearance is measured. After all... if the valves are being held open on the base circle... you get a crap motor all around.

So you know then... that all valves have to be on the base circle when the piston reaches TDC...

-- remove the plugs all together. You don't want to be battling compression when rotating the crank. I mean, go ahead if you think you can... but this is the smart move. Do stuff a few rags in the pockets though, so no bolts, nuts or gold teeth/piercings/crack rocks fall in...

-- get a big #3 Phillips, or other metal rod that's too long to fall in, or shatter and get stuck in your cylinder.

-- insert it in the #1 clylinder plug hole. Watch it rise, until it stops and begins to fall again (you can even use the PS pulley bolt to do this, as long as your plugs are out -- DO NOT USE THE CAM SPROCKET BOLT TO ROTATE THE CRANK!!! You can jump time on the timing belt! ). Get it to the max lift you can see. This is close enough to measure your #1 cyl's valve clearance. Double check with cam sprocket mark that 'close enough' isn't '90 degrees off'. That I even have to mention this, makes me sad but there you go.

-- double check for TDC-C, and not TDC **OVERLAP**, by wiggling each of the #1 rocker arms at the adjuster -- you should feel the ciickety-click of clearance ON ALL VALVES, BOTH INTAKE AND EXHAUST. Unless you have tight valves*... if you feel all four valves with clearance, this is TDC-C.

* with tight valves... you can still confirm TDC by eye with the screwdriver... but you CANNOT confirm TDC-C it with the rocker wiggle, since obviously it's tight. This CAN be used to FIND the tight valve though, since you know it's on the base circle. The one that doesn't wiggle @TDC-C... is your tight culprit. But with suspected tight valve/s ALWAYS confirm with the cam sprocket mark, ALWAYS... good idea to do it with any VC adjustment, really. Measure twice, adjust once, redo zeronce.

-- adjust, with the appropriate thickness feeler gauge OFF THE HOLDER. Sometimes bending the feeler gauge to get a better angle is fine -- as long as you DO NOT kink the gauge where you're sticking it between the adjuster and the valve -- must feel like a slight drag when you've got it right. Double check when you've tightened down the adjuster, that the drag you felt before is identical. If it's tight or loose, DO IT AGAIN. AND AGAIN. AND AGAIN, until it's RIGHT...

-- put your big foot-long phillips into the #3 cylinder, and repeat ALL THE STEPS... then #4, and finally #2.

-- congratulations... you've performed a complete VC adjustment in under two hours. With practice (well... if done right hopefully not), this can be done in ~30 - 45 mins. Ezone's exp level = maybe even less.


::


Getting TO the valves, will be way more work than adjusting them... as long as you follow these steps. There is a faster way, which only involves two movements of the cam/crank... but it's much easier to understand and not that much more work in a non-flat-rate environment, than the other way.

Ezone, anything you see that's left out or to get this done even faster, feel free to add, since you actually work in a flat-rate environment now vs. my three years ago.

ezone

Ok, since you asked..
I'll need to make a flag for .50 on this, got a work order number for this job?

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Stone cold engine should be #1 on Hondas.
I think the FSM states to have the engine below 100*F prior to inspection and adjustment.
(I don't always have the luxury of letting a car sit overnight, so I might use a fan to cool it down and make sure at least the cylinder head and valvetrain are cold.)

As far as specs, the FSM usually has oddball metric specs that aren't in a normal feeler set (feelers in increments of 0.05mm).
I prefer to use standard gauges and specs.

I watch for valve overlap action on opposite cylinder (1/4, 2/3) to determine when my intended piston is at TDC.
I don't watch the cam or crank pulleys or timing marks at all.

Slightly tight valves can cause manifold vacuum to drop, which the computer falsely interprets as a load, in turn causing rich code P0172.

Since Hondas generally tend to tighten valves as miles accumulate, I always set to the loose end of spec.

Crack rocks are mostly in the Odysseys, and the higher the trim level the more rocks the appliance user is smoking.
Sales department won't share their crack either.
I wish I could get some so I could better understand their way of thinking.

I need pictures. Got animation?

If there is ANY question, always refer to the FSM.

-IF the cam profile has overlap. Some may not, and valves could be loose enough for all to have clearance on overlap.
Not likely, but just mentioning it.

Gotta remember that one.
This.
If one has no "feel" for valve adjustment, then a bare sliver of metal is much easier to gauge with.

Again, this. I have several of them bent and mutilated at various angles for some of these engines.

And they break easy too, can't bend the same spot several times LOL

Use the next gauge sizes (0.001") higher and lower than desired spec to check your work. Smaller gauge should easily "fall through" the gap, larger gauge should not pass at all.


No comment....

Hey, this customer just drove in from the next town over, and they want the valves adjusted. Did I mention they are gonna wait on it? How soon can you have it done? The ice cream in the trunk is melting so hurry up!

::Honda instructor at a class did not approve of this method (the instructor said the base circle isn't always perfectly round or something bla bla bla). I actually tried it a few times, and when rechecking the regular way it seemed to be a little off, so I now do Hondas one at a time as per the FSM with no worries.......


4 cyl was easy to learn the pattern, but I never did enough valve adjustments on 6s or 8s to bother learning their patterns.

I DID use the method all the time on Mazda engines. Real time saver. I could do those faster than Hondas, and theirs had to be adjusted HOT. If you were too slow, you might need to reassemble it and run it to temp again in the middle of the job LOL.

HTH

kinakoes2

First off... I was *crying* at the humorous responses . Thanks for putting some humor into a well-pear-shaped day here.

What's the job code for 'sharpshooting/muckraking another smarta$$ tech's advice'?

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Agree. There was a time when Honda would only publish metric clearances for VC in their moto FSMs... now I believe they publish both metric and SAE versions. I have a Craftsman set that lists primary SAE with what that is in metric, acid-etched onto the feelers; cheap and accurate.


Using the cam sprocket on SOHC engines was a trick I learned on Yamaha Viragos and V-Star 650s -- as long as plugs are out, the cam bolt can be used to rotate the crank AND confirm TDC-C... but motos usually have much better sightlines for cam sprocket marks than car engines do.

Usually on DOHC engines it's easy -- on inline Fours, TDC-C is always with the cam lobes facing away from each other. There's only one point at which they're doing that, and when it happens, the piston should also be watched, because it's in the ballpark of TDC-C. SOHC engines... not so much. The only exception to this rule is on DOHC V-engines -- on Suzuki 90-deg V-Twin sport engines, TDC-C on the rear cylinders was with the lobes facing *towards* each other.


Correct -- on the D17. It varies with other vehicles, esp if they're air-cooled. Virago/V-Stars got looser with temperature, so you *always* set them on the tight side of spec. But a liquid-cooled Inline Four... loose is safe. Much prefer loose and a bit noisy, than tight, as it'll only get tighter.


I follow ya -- Gold Wing 1500s have zero overlap... but I haven't seen zero overlap on an automotive engine in some time -- not very efficient, and certainly a feature on the efficient (relatively) D17s...


See --- knew I'd forgotten something...

That's a bottom-line confirmation of whether your adjustment is good, no question about it... it's all right there, go or no-go.


OMG I used to have a guy come in with a Suzuki VX800 -- a 1995 bike in 2002 that was hammered flat with miles and Phoenix exposure... but no one in the area would work on it but us... for good reason too, as those are a friggin' Tim Burton nightmare to work on, even brand new. And he'd sit there, sippin' on a protein shake or other drink he'd brought to the shop, in the service area and watch me work. 2.5 hrs of having someone look over your shoulder and point out things I needed to be careful of... no wonder all the other shops kicked him out. Luckily I'd been put through the wringer with VS800 and VS1400 Intruder services by then (same basic engine)... so 5.5 hrs for a T&S including valves... couldn't turn him down. Finally stopped coming when a crucial part (carb manifold rubber) began to crack and leak but went out of production at Suzuki. He bought a then-new FZ1 the next day from us (26.6K VC inspection, booyah!).


That's interesting... shouldn't have anything to do with base circle concentricity... more with how far on the base circle Honda makes clearance ramps... if they grind a long clearance ramp, then the cylinders at BDC won't be on the base circle proper, but beginning up the ramps. In that case your adjustments will be loose. So I concur -- use the 7th-gen FSM for VC adjustment.


Wow, that's fascinating -- never worked on a motor that had to be adjusted HOT... so you had to warm it until the fan kicked on, then start pulling parts off? Ouch!

Luckily I think all the current Mazda3 engines are HLA-equipped by now... which have their own problems but to me are preferable to screw-locknut. Still... 110K valve clearance interval for Hondas? Probably even better by now.

ezone

You're welcome, glad to be of assistance.
I dunno, that's not my department.
Check with the warranty fraud administrator.


Most people probably should just completely avoid trying to turn the engine over using the cam sprocket bolt.

A) It's tiny, you could loosen/overtighten/break it the F off, and
B) the 1.7 has only spring tension on the floating tensioner pulley, not a locked pulley adjustment so you could jump time if you spin it the wrong direction. Normal direction of rotation is now the wrong direction.



I deal with their cars daily, not bikes.
I don't even want to fix my own bike at the end of the day, it still needs the back tire and rear pads. But I really don't wanna pay someone else when I can DIY. Is there a forum for that that I can whine on?

I had to mail-order another set of go/nogo feelers this year, the tool truck and parts store people just looked at me like I have 2 heads when I asked about getting some.


Good thought, and that might be why. It was always the middle two that came out not quite right. Wonder why it worked so well on the other brand though. Oh well.

Solid lifter = long ramps.
Hydraulic can use much shorter ramps.
I couldn't tell you anything about those without some research, but I can tell you the 04 Miata turbo I did a timing belt on last week had buckets with shims. Was definitely not expecting to see that in this day and age.
I'd drive it til it's hot, then pull it in and rip it apart while running as long as possible, if and when possible. When it was down to the last 2 or 3 bolts on the valve cover, then I shut the engine off.

kinakoes2

Guess you did it for free then! Join the club...


True, esp the time-skipping part. But I have a hard time believing the bolt is that fragile, when it deals with 127 hp new of pulling from the crank, spinning twice cam speed (doubling torque).

My exp is with bikes with Hyvo camchains nearly exclusively, as I don't work on Ducatis so don't see many toothed belts. Camchain tensioners are always wet (like their Honda car counterparts), so completely different than dry belt eccentric tensioners.


Heck at least I'll know what you're talking about -- why not here? In awareness of staying on topic eventually, of course.


That's bizarre... my set is Blue Point, and I know I've seen them at Sears (though tbh it was ~6 yrs ago). No reason why a tool truck esp a SO or MAC on should be shading you like that... may want to see which truck services the local Big Four dealers in your area? Could be supply/demand thing.


Having generous clearance ramps is very kind to valvetrains, esp the cam lobe... not to mention reduced drivetrain friction in use. It also allows more time for valve spring resonance to calm down before setting the valve onto its seat. Think of a finger on a bell stopping it ringing -- that prevents the valve bouncing on the seat, improving emissions, high-rpm fueling, and again wear. But not having them, makes them a little less expensive to machine... which is why other OEs may skip it and design in other areas to manage those things, like higher valve spring rates, nested springs (sportbikes esp), and lighter valves.


Hydraulics favor shorter ramps, because you need acceleration of the plunger inside the HLA, to meet hydraulic lock from the oil inside. Same as when you try to spin a crank with the plugs in fast, vs. slow. Hydraulics are also much kinder to valvetrains than solid lifters, as they give a tiny bit, providing cushion and preventing wear (also why regular oil changes with quality oil are a must for HLA motors... a little bit of gunk can go a long way).

Simple and proven gives you two things great for a Miata -- it keeps things reliable, and makes it easy for aftermarket speed shops to make parts. Mazda obviously knows Miata owners will be tinkering and fettering and clamping on all sorts of grassroots mods, as they autocross and roadrace brilliantly. All that may take a turn with the ND though... it's getting the same complex SkyActiv 2.0L as the other Mazdas. but it also means the NA-NB-NC models will be a bit cheaper for us tinkerers.

mikey1

sorry but this is horrible advice, the engine should always be rotated using the drive pulley (crank), turning the engine with the cam is an easy way to have the belt "jump time", not to mention the cam bolt will probably loosen (on these engines) before you are even able to rotate the engine

ezone

It's been Matco only for several years here. No MAC in several years, and the last Strapon dealer was worthless, stopped by about once every 2 years or so. Got a new Snappy dealer now, been real consistent for the last month, we'll see how long he lasts.


The previous set of go-nogo gauges I got from one of those real parts stores, the kind that existed to serve real shops. This was in the late 70s. Not the kind now that is open on Sunday.


And speaking of Snappy, I do have a pair of go-nogo that fit VW buckets from the 70s-80s, Rabbits/Scirocco and such. Still have that one.

ezone

I sometimes use the power steering pump pulley if the car is on the ground.

kinakoes2

Yep -- if you'd read my replies to ezone's concerns about this method, you'd see why I thought so, and why I agree it's not so much on the D17... esp in light of using the PS pulley instead.

ezone -- here's the set I have, except with the Blue Point logo stamped on the holder loop ... and a damned sight cheaper too:

Proto Blackhawk Go-No-Go Feeler Gauges -- Grainger

mikey1

yeah, but the PS pulley will rotate the crank

RIPSAW

See this on my high mileage Toyota. I think it's caused by a cupping on the valve stem end. Just come down on the filler gauge and and tweak the screw a degree or so more and snug the locknut. The filler is going to be tight. Since I not there, as a check, make sure a .002 thinner filler will slide in. Bet that will fix it.

kinakoes2

Not sure what your point is. Turning the crank will also turn the cam, just like it's supposed to without risking tooth skip.

If the car is on the ground, then wheels are installed. Helps to have the wheel removed to access the crank bolt... so when that's too much time, using the PS pulley to turn the camshaft is safe, since it turns the same pulley on the part you'd be turning with a ratchet? No need to jack up the car and remove the wheel to adjust valves... plus it's easier to make fine adjustments to get marks lined up, when you don't have to go into the wheel well blind.

I concede turning the cam sprocket bolt is a bad idea now... but the PS pulley bolt too now? With plugs out, shouldn't be a problem, since if you're gentle with turning the PS bolt you shouldn't break it loose?

mikey1

i never said using the PS pump to turn the engine is "not safe", its perfectly fine,

turning the engine by the crank pulley or the PS pulley are accomplishing the same thing.....you are still turning the engine by the drive pulley (crank) either way, which is fine,

when you turn the engine using the cam you are putting the loose side of the belt between the cam and crank, without any tensioner (where it should not be) and you are putting the tight side of the belt on the tensioner side (where it should not be),

doing this can easily cause the belt to "jump time"

kinakoes2

--


So, my reply to you was just wondering why you mentioned it at all then, if you knew that. I knew what ezone meant when he mentioned it, having read and understood his explanations, and my own knowledge/exp. That's all.

mikey1

blah....i dunno, im too tired right now and had too much to drink to make any sense of this.....Lol

kinakoes2

Corrected original post to reflect ezone's advice re: cam sprocket bolt vs. crank bolt or PS pulley bolt -- thanks!

ezone

It only works if the belt is tight enough.
Kinda tough to get another hand in there to help a loose belt.

kinakoes2

Good point to make -- usually if the belt is properly tensioned and not rocky & ready for a swap... you can rotate the crank with it. Just tried this yesterday to see for myself -- and that was plugs-in; works a charm. Should then be a cinch plugs-out, which is the only way I'd recommend doing it anyway.

BTW, all -- if you find slippage while doing this, do re-tension your PS belt, your steering feel will be much better.