thefinder808

First timer here, need help with my 97 Civic LX. First off I've had the car about a year and it has seemed to get more and more sluggish a little at a time. The problem has gotten worse in the last 2 weeks or so, and in the past 60 days it's stalled twice (which it never did before). Fuel economy seems to have dropped off as well.

Today I got off work, hopped in the car and turned the key. It will crank and crank all day but won't start. I don't think it's the main relay as I'm 90% sure I can hear the 3 clicks. The CEL comes on for a couple seconds when key is first turned to ON(II) then turns off (and clicks). I'm pretty sure I can hear the fuel pump priming. If I can hear the fuel pump come on does that definitely mean it's not the culprit? I haven't been able to check spark or fuel pressure yet because all my tools were stolen recently, my friend should be able to come out in a few days with tools.

Basically my core question is this: Can the fuel pump still cause a No Start even if you can hear it come on when first turn key to ON(II)? Could the fuel filter or fuel pump screen be the culprit or would it start for a second and stall if that were the case? I'm not an expert mechanic by any means, so any and all suggestions would be appreciated. If the Lord is willing I'll have maybe $400 bucks to fund repairs.

BTW I did check ignition related fuses, all were fine.

GolNat

iTrader: (7)

Does it start at all?

Before trying to start the car turn the key to posisition (II) then off, back to (II), off, back to (II) then start. See if that helps it start. You could have a lazy fuel pump and by turning the key to position (II) and off you are priming it.

thefinder808

It doesn't start at all, and I have tried turning key to (II) over and over to prime it but to no avail.

ezone

Observe things first.....
Does the check engine light come on for 2 seconds when you turn the key on?

You can verify if spark is present without any tools, but you do need a helper to crank the engine . (If spark is missing, then you may need tools.)

You can see if there is zero fuel pressure with (probably) only a crescent wrench and a helper to crank the engine (do not check for spark after this!) If low pressure is suspect though, you need tools.
---If you have a spray can of something flammable (carb and throttle cleaner), spray that into the throttle while someone is cranking it. If it tries to fire, you know you have a fuel problem.

Timing belt jumped time? Meh, need tools.


That's no way to test, son.

Relay clicking does not mean the relay is good.
A $5 test light and a wiring diagram would tell if the relay is turning the pump on or not.

A few tests would tell you if the pump is good or not, if the relay is good or not, and low pressure does not automatically mean a bad pump.
If the car has less than a quarter million miles, the pump would not be at the top of my list. Hondas fuel pumps are damn reliable.

The main relay could run the pump ok to prime, but not run the pump when trying to start the engine.
If you can solder halfway decent, you can fix the main relay and (99%) eliminate it as a possible cause. 20 minutes.

If you are smart about this, you won't waste that money needlessly. Praying won't help with this part. A logical systematic approach and pointed testing will.

thefinder808

CEL does come on for 2 seconds when key is turned to ON(II) and then turns off. Like an idiot I had every single one of my tools in the trunk of my car for two nights in a row and one of those nights was the first time I've had my car broken into. I don't even have a crescent wrench, hopefully tomorrow I will.

Ok so I need a tester light to check the Main Relay? Also this car has 181,000 miles, I know it's rare for a fuel pump to go out that soon on this car but all the symptoms I had previous to it not starting make me suspicious. I have virtually no soldering skills so if it was the Main Relay I would have to buy a new one.

ezone

There are 2 halves to the main relay. One half powers the PCM, the other half operates the fuel pump.
Since you say the CEL comes on, that tells me that at least the PCM is getting powered up.
That doesn't tell whether or not the fuel pump side is working though, that's where the test light comes into play.
Connect test light to the fuel pump B+ wire (yellow/green), crank the engine.
If it lights up, the main relay is doing what it should. Look elsewhere.
If no light, then there's a problem.

Make sense?

There's a ton of other things that would cause a no start besides a fuel pump.
Like....Is it out of gas?

thefinder808

Ok, I will try that tomorrow and post results here. Lord willing my friend will be able to get out of work and we can check fuel pressure and spark. I'm going to buy a test light and try and rent a fuel pressure gauge. What do you make of the steadily increasing sluggishness of the car, as well as loss of MPG and the few stalling incidents? Could that be caused by faulty Main Relay, igniter, or ignition coil? I'm not even sure why I'm asking these questions yet when I haven't even been able to check spark and pressure...just curious. BTW it does have fuel, thankfully...

ezone

That's why I mentioned things like cam timing.
Clogged cat?
Really, depends on how it acted.
Misfire? Lack of power only at high RPM+load? General lack of power that came in definite stages or steps?
Symptom differences can be subtle, and if you aren't a "trained observer", the symptoms all could appear the same.
Now that it won't run at all, it's hard to get new info about what it was doing before it quit if the driver wasn't extremely observant.


Start with basics. Spark, fuel, compression. All must be present, in the correct amounts, and at the correct times.

thefinder808

Not sure if you want me to answer those questions before I test spark, fuel, and compression, but I will do so anyway for the sake of providing more history of the problem. The car has never misfired, the lack of power was much more noticeable in 1st and 2nd gear until maybe 2 weeks ago, when it began to become fairly pronounced in 3rd, 4th, and 5th. The lack of power was not only at high RPM, and has always been worse when starting off in 1st. When starting in 1st there is not only been a pronounced power loss (compared to a year ago when I first bought the car), but there have been gradually worsening hesitations (with AC off) especially at lower RPM (1000-2500). All of these symptoms seemed a little worse today.

I'm no where near as experience of as knowledgeable as you are in this area (obviously) and I'm probably wrong, but I just keep getting the nagging feeling that it's fuel related. I guess we'll find out tomorrow. BTW thank you so much for the help so far! You've provided me with information that should make the diagnosis much quicker/easier.

ezone

So it runs now?




Also, don't rule out multiple problems.

thefinder808

No, it wouldn't start when I got off work yesterday. It seemed noticeably more sluggish on the way there. It's about a 17 mile trip.

thefinder808

Found a crescent wrench! Just loosened fuel line running from fuel filter to fuel rail, had a buddy try to start it (I know it's not safest way to do this, or accurate) and fuel sprayed out with force, then stopped when key was turned to OFF. I'll know more when I get the fuel pressure gauge, but so far it seems like it's not a fuel pump or filter problem.

thefinder808

No spark at spark plug wires. I'm hopefully going to be able to check distributor rotor, igniter, and ignition coil soon.

thefinder808

Here's a question that will demonstrate my mechanical ignorance: If the timing belt broke or jumped, would I still get spark at the spark plug wires (assuming timing belt was my only problem)? I'm really hoping to rule out the timing belt.

ezone

If the timing belt only jumped time, then yes you still get spark because the distributor still turns....just sparks happen at the wrong time. You can bend valves too if the belt jumps time, so be careful.

It t-belt broke, then dist would not turn at all, therefore no spark. You might need an engine, or a bunch of valves.

I check for spark, I ground a screwdriver and hold it right up to the coil tower and have someone crank it. If there is ANY spark, I need to know how much it can make. How long of a lightning bolt will it throw?
An inch is great. Check the rest of the secondary, like cap rotor wires etc.
If there is only 1-16 of an inch, then coil is weak. Replace.
If I see no spark, my first question is "what still works", so I get a dwellmeter and set it up like I was checking points on an old car. If there is ANY dwell reading when cranked, then I know the everything up to and including the igniter is working, therefore the coil must be bad.
If dwell reads 90 or 0, then I have trouble with igniter or further back, like ECM, wiring, CKP/CMP/TDC whatever the dist has in it. Further checks are needed.

Any codes?

thefinder808

Ezone, thank you for all your help. Once my friend arrived with the test light we discovered it was the coil. We easily replaced it, and my baby started right up. We went ahead and threw in new spark plugs as well and the sluggishness is gone! Runs like a new car now. Just wanted to say thanks for all the advice.

TheFinder

ezone

Cheaper than a fuel pump, and you still have plenty $$$ to buy dinner!
I like my steak medium, with baked potato. Thanks.