Timing question
 

A newbie to this forum. Watch the video and tell me what you think. Video take too long. Here are two pics.
#1- the cam sprocket at TDC(broken, will not turn valve train)
#2- the crank shaft

the cam sprocket still turns with the crank shaft
the car ran for about 3 mins and died. The pucs are what I found. One single thought came to my mind. What do you tjink??????

Re: Timing question
 

I think I don't see any video

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Yeah, sorry. I didn' even mean to post the message yet. I hit the wrong button trying to figure out how to upload a video.

Re: Timing question
 

Pic of cam gear looks like it cracked where the alignment pin is?


Did the camshaft seize in the head? (galled journal?)
Did the cam gear bolt just come loose (or forgot to tighten it) and the gear spun?
Have you taken anything else apart yet to find out more?



Got any history on that engine?
Did the ever get badly overheated and warp the head?

Any other major events ever happen to it?

Re: Timing question
 

I want an initial response with the limited info I gave. The sprocket still turns with the crank. It will not operate the valve train though. The history is not relevant for what I am asking. What is your initial thought???? If I give more info then your opinion/thought/cause might be swayed. I will say this much more. I turned the crank to get the sprocket to TDC.

Re: Timing question
 

I got that part.

Do you not want to tell WHY it let go?
My first thoughts were either the cam gear bolt was left loose or camshaft seized.


You probably won't be able to tell much about bent valves until you can fix the cam gear and put it back in correct time.

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It' s not that I don't want to say. I just do not want to influence your conclusion.
-the cam did not seize as far as I can tell. I filled the cam valley with oil, poured oil all over the valve train, primed oil pump, and filled oil filter before installing it.
-yes, it is safe to assume the valves are bent.
-the bolt was not loose.
I asked another person and he came up with the same conclusion also. Yours was not the same but it is another thing to think about. I can't send you a private message and I don't want to say just yet what that conclusion is. I want to see if some one else will come up with same conclusion as us.

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Prove it. Make the cam turn, and if it won't turn, take it apart to see if a journal is wasted.



How about some background on the job?

What was just done to the engine, and why?
Rod bearing knock? Overhaul? Overheat?

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So you want us to guess what broke your camshaft sproket and sheared off the pin on the camshaft.

Prolonged misfires, engine downshifting into first while going 80mph, monkey wrench left behind after a timing belt change..

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No, not exactly guess. You know what? Yes, guess, conclude, surmise, etc... Just based on the little info and pics. Yes, I understand that alot of things could have happened. I have no reason to lie. I do have a video but can't upload. Takes too long thru phone. I will say that the engine was rebuilt and recently had the oil pump replaced. But even that is irrelevant to the question. I do point out some things that are somewhat revealing. Well, I think they are revealing, relativity right. The sprocket still turns with the crank shaft. Look at the pics closer. What do you see?????

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See now I am leading you to the same conclusion. Not what I wanted.

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It's jumped time between the last moment it was running, and the point you got it tore it down and took pictures.



Did the crank get rolled the wrong direction?

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I am trying to "quick reply" with quotes but I can't tell if it has worked.

-I didn' rebuild it. I installed it turned it on and drove it up my ramps to burp the cooling system then it just died. Nothing abrupt or loud.

- you think it would jump that many degrees? The belt is still intact. I would think that if it jumped that much that the belt would be shredded and the sprocket would not be broken?

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Prove the pulleys are really out of time. Set crank on its TDC mark, and then see just how far off the cam gear is.
Not that it matters now. Damage is done.


You got a bum deal on an engine job? It needs another engine. Seller should warranty it?

Re: Timing question
 

The cam IS at TDC so the crank should be too. But it is not. I am even pointing at the TDC mark. That is why I said look closer at pics.

INFO +pics
-the cam key and sprocket are broken
- the sprocket still turns with crank
-the belt is not shredded
-when the sprocket is at TDC the crank is off TDC by about 70°

Our first thought, the timing was wrong from get go.

Our logic--
Since the belt is not shredded and the sprocket IS broke then the belt did not jump. If the sprocket had not been broke then I would be more tempted to believe that it might have jumped. But then again; it would have to jump 15 teeth(guessing). Seems like that is a bit too much to jump before shutting down. The sprocket/key way broke because the belt was stronger. So, if it were timed right - placing the sprocket or crank at TDC would put the other at TDC. As you can see the crank is off. Logically makes sense to me and this other guy I showed the video to. Not saying I am right but really seems sound to me. What do y'll think???????

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I have had nothing but problems ever since I got the emgine back from shop but lucky for me the owner has been accepting responsibiliy and not fighting me on any issue. Especially, since they had beoken myyy cam at their shop once before.
I took the block to them twice. Yes, i pulled the engine out twice. This time they will be towing the car back and working on it at no charge. At least that is what I understood.

the main issue I had through out this ordeal was low oil pressure at idle after warm up. I told him I thought it was loose bearing clearances. He trusted what his mechanic said instead and he gave me another head. That did not fix it. The second time they changed the oil pump and this is where I am at now. I turned the car On put it on ramps to burp the cooling system and the car just died. Nothing abrupt just died. I tried to turn it on but would just crank not start. Checked fuel, spark and injectors. Then I noticed the sound of NO COMPRESSSION which led me to investigate further etc.....

Re: Timing question
 

Impossible, because you said it was running for about 3 MINUTES before it quit.

If it was this far out of time when assembled, it would never have been able to start and run in the first place.



I only saw it broken around the center and the pin area. That means it's free to spin on the end of the camshaft.



Is the outer ring of the gear (toothed area) also broken?
It's pretty apparent in your picture that it did jump time.
Could have been when the cam locked up and sheared the pin/broke the gear?

Could have been when you turned the crank clockwise?











So is the camshaft locked up?



This doesn't sound promising at all.

Re: Timing question
 

I am not saying that it was off by that much from begining. Just wrong time. My bad, didnt really mean to imply that it was off by that much from get go. I know that my civic according to my scanner can advance spark by up to 40° if I remember correctly. So, if they were of by two or three teeth the computer could still compensate but once the car eventually goes too far out of time the ecu cannot compensate and or just hit the wrong time and by that time the timing is off by that many degrees. I can see it in my head. You know the timing slowly moving out of time until eventually hits the wrong time. Don't know if I explained it right though.

lol, I didn't turn it clockwise and I didnt turn it much. The sprocket was about 20 ° off. I turned it CC. Nice try though.

the sprocket is broken across (perpendicular) the teeth but still holding together and still spins on the cam shaft.

I don't believe the cam is seized. I don't want to take anything else apart so they can't say I messed with something.

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How would it jump time??? You mentioned some ways but nothing like that happened. So what makes it jump time??????

maybe I should save this question for another time???

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i would have the shop buy you an engine from JDM, install it, and call it even on the bill.

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That engine was a used engine and got s?@*#. I dont know if it was jdm though. So far the owner is accepting responsibility. As long as they fix it, I will be satisied. Especially if I don't have to take it apart this time. Of course, that is also something to worry about considering the problems that I have had. I know if I take the engine out that I am going to put every bolt back in it. I have some faith in humans, lol.

Re: Timing question
 

That engine was a used engine and got s?@*#. I dont know if it was jdm though. So far the owner is accepting responsibility. As long as they fix it, I will be satisied. Especially if I don't have to take it apart this time. Of course, that is also something to worry about considering the problems that I have had. I know if I take the engine out that I am going to put every bolt back in it. I have some faith in humans, lol.

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It's out of time. Who cares? It's a moot point now.

You're trying to figure out why the horse was sick, but the horse already died.
We're beating a dead horse here.

It's so far out of time now that it doesn't even matter anymore.
The cam gear is freekin broken.
I'm still betting the cam seized in the head. You can't turn it yet to prove otherwise.......and even when/if you do, it's still kinda pointless.
We're still beating the same dead horse.


If the shop botched their part of the work, the shop probably owes you a proper, reliable fixed horse. I mean engine/car.
I don't think I'd trust them though. You listed a lot of problems that shop caused.


And
Computer controlled electronic ignition timing advance is very different from mechanical cam-crank timing.

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These engines are easy to take apart, re-gasket, and reinstall.
I would ask the shop to buy you a JDM engine, a gasket kit, new oil pump, and new water pump. (less than 800 bucks total)
Do the work yourself.
Taking your time, you can strip the engine down, re-gasket it, and install in a weekend.

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Yes, I realize the horse has been dead. It is spilled milk or what ever other qoute there is. Just trying to learn something. That is why I ask questions. I thought that is what these forums were for?????

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Yes, I know. I had already taken the engine apart myself two or three times after a failed rering job from someone else. I left the block in the car took almost everything apart aside from the crank and main upper bearings. Rejoined and reclocked rings, etc.... I had great compression 210psi on each cylinder and very good Leak down 5% or less. But still wasn't enough. It would burn oil big time. It would not stop smoking and it smoked a whole lot. That is part of reason why I took it to get rebuilt. I never had low oil pressure or cam problems, nothing like that.

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Quotes worked that time.

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Rrrrr