127-horsepower 1.7-liter engine to 170-horsepower?
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127-horsepower 1.7-liter engine to 170-horsepower?
Why hasn't anyone done this?
concept civic engine
Id like 170 hp out of my engine, thats enough for me it would be quick enough...
About how much would all this cost to get done?
-custom high-flow intake manifold
-engine head that has been ported, polished and decked
-custom exhaust header
-2" or 2.25" Exhaust - muffler
Hope i posted in the right category, move me if i didn't...
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concept civic engine
Id like 170 hp out of my engine, thats enough for me it would be quick enough...
About how much would all this cost to get done?
-custom high-flow intake manifold
-engine head that has been ported, polished and decked
-custom exhaust header
-2" or 2.25" Exhaust - muffler
Hope i posted in the right category, move me if i didn't...
LINK FIXED
But that color is [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-puke.gif[/IMG] IMO 
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Rep Power: 374 Ok Ill go first:
Custom intake manifold: ??? mohawkbooms to $600.00 kms's intake manifold
Exhaust: 300-500
Header:200-250
Ported/polished/decked: I have no idea! someone's gotta know this (what about just ported/polished)
i guess my question is really how much it would cost for the ported/polished/decked...anyone know
Custom intake manifold: ??? mohawkbooms to $600.00 kms's intake manifold
Exhaust: 300-500
Header:200-250
Ported/polished/decked: I have no idea! someone's gotta know this (what about just ported/polished)
i guess my question is really how much it would cost for the ported/polished/decked...anyone know
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[hr]Originally posted by: VTECHUNTER
nowto explain it a little more, take your head off of the car, and machine the bottom of it to take off material. then when you put the head back on the combus. chamber is smaller from the top of the piston head to the bottom of the head, sence the head is closer now because there is less material, the compression ratio is much higher. if you want LESS compression, you can put in a bigger head gasket which will raise the head furter off the block thus, lower compression. port and polish is simple, when the head is off, the air comes in, goes through the intake tubes and thgouh the vales into the combustion chamber. to make more power you want as much air as possible to enter the chamber smoothly. you can buy a port and polish kit from most perforamance shops....its basickly snadpaper wound around a metal rod....when you put the rod into a drill/dremol hit the power button and the sandpaper will expand into the chambers, you must go slow, and chekc your work....you want the "tunnels" in the head to be bigger......not to hard, you can port and polish at home in your living room if you want....decking must be done in a machine shop....unless you have accress to cnc machinary. any questions email me at brianchrencik@yahoo.com i ported and polished my last motor. very easy and pulled 5 ponies out of it!( it was a d18a9)[IMG]i/expressions/demon.gif[/IMG][hr]
[hr]Originally posted by: VTECHUNTER
nowto explain it a little more, take your head off of the car, and machine the bottom of it to take off material. then when you put the head back on the combus. chamber is smaller from the top of the piston head to the bottom of the head, sence the head is closer now because there is less material, the compression ratio is much higher. if you want LESS compression, you can put in a bigger head gasket which will raise the head furter off the block thus, lower compression. port and polish is simple, when the head is off, the air comes in, goes through the intake tubes and thgouh the vales into the combustion chamber. to make more power you want as much air as possible to enter the chamber smoothly. you can buy a port and polish kit from most perforamance shops....its basickly snadpaper wound around a metal rod....when you put the rod into a drill/dremol hit the power button and the sandpaper will expand into the chambers, you must go slow, and chekc your work....you want the "tunnels" in the head to be bigger......not to hard, you can port and polish at home in your living room if you want....decking must be done in a machine shop....unless you have accress to cnc machinary. any questions email me at brianchrencik@yahoo.com i ported and polished my last motor. very easy and pulled 5 ponies out of it!( it was a d18a9)[IMG]i/expressions/demon.gif[/IMG][hr]
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Rep Power: 0 if you look closely at the pic where it shows the rear it looks like it has a civic type r badge on it,and also on the pic of the interior, where u can see the shifter column....anyone else notice this? well anyways thats a sweet looking civic, im really like the gold, carbon fiber, and black headlight and wheels theme, really goes together well....as for your question on the price of port/polish/deck for the head, i am not sure of the price, but vteckiller explained it pretty well...
That is a really sweet ride, I have read about it somewhere b4. That would knock the socks off a SiR/Si or maybe even the base rsx. You gotta admit, the rsx skirts look pretty sharp, along with the 4 wheel discs and black rims. Not bad at all, now all we need to see is the price.
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Rep Power: 0 if u in cali..i know a shop that will port and polish ur intake and exhaust manifold and bored your throttle body for 600..just pm me or let me know if u interested
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[hr]Originally posted by: nucks
if you look closely at the pic where it shows the rear it looks like it has a civic type r badge on it,and also on the pic of the interior, where u can see the shifter column....anyone else notice this?[hr]
[hr]Originally posted by: nucks
if you look closely at the pic where it shows the rear it looks like it has a civic type r badge on it,and also on the pic of the interior, where u can see the shifter column....anyone else notice this?[hr]
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Rep Power: 0 yea, cap yoda is right. that car was in the 2001 SEMA including the concept RSX. Honda fabricates its own parts for these applications or finds a manufacturer that makes it accdg. to Honda's specs w/c is very costly and it won't be the same with aftermarket stuff
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Billet Cam (custom) $800
High Compression pistons and rings 11:1 $660
Port work: $900(must be properly done for maximum air velocity. Not just bigger holes)
Intake manifold $350 from any decent shop to make you a good plenum style intake.
Headers/exhaust $750
Cam Gear. $125?
Jet Chip or other ECU reprogramming $250
$3800 plus another $500 for dyno-tuning.
Billet Cam (custom) $800
High Compression pistons and rings 11:1 $660
Port work: $900(must be properly done for maximum air velocity. Not just bigger holes)
Intake manifold $350 from any decent shop to make you a good plenum style intake.
Headers/exhaust $750
Cam Gear. $125?
Jet Chip or other ECU reprogramming $250
$3800 plus another $500 for dyno-tuning.
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From: Arizona
Rep Power: 326 I love almost all about it. Except the fact that inside it has a foglight switch, and there's no foglights on the front. Oh well, I'd take it for the HP and the brakes.
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[hr]Originally posted by: mohawkboom
.
Billet Cam (custom) $800
High Compression pistons and rings 11:1 $660
Port work: $900(must be properly done for maximum air velocity. Not just bigger holes)
Intake manifold $350 from any decent shop to make you a good plenum style intake.
Headers/exhaust $750
Cam Gear. $125?
Jet Chip or other ECU reprogramming $250
$3800 plus another $500 for dyno-tuning.[hr]
[hr]Originally posted by: mohawkboom
.
Billet Cam (custom) $800
High Compression pistons and rings 11:1 $660
Port work: $900(must be properly done for maximum air velocity. Not just bigger holes)
Intake manifold $350 from any decent shop to make you a good plenum style intake.
Headers/exhaust $750
Cam Gear. $125?
Jet Chip or other ECU reprogramming $250
$3800 plus another $500 for dyno-tuning.[hr]
Looks like you can lower the header and exhaust price to about 400....and if you get hooked up you can get port work for about 400 
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Rep Power: 0 So, the website claims 170 hp... but what data do they give you to back it up? Think critically about claims people make on their set-ups. If it seems too good to be true, it problably is.
The V-Tec system does an excellent jog of raising volumetric efficiency. The VE may be 85-90% for a reasonalbe good range of rpm, say 4000 to 6000 rpm, and then drops off to, let's say, 75% over the last 1000 rpm.
So from the Honda website we see that the hp is LX / EX 115 @ 6100 / 127 @ 6300. Well, for the EX, the VE is still quite good at 6300 rpm... let's say 80%. Now, porting, polishing, manifold changes, cold-air intakes and the like give us what... VA, volumetric efficiency. However, they cannot give you more than 100%. Realistically, getting past 95% is for big budget race teams only. (turbocharging will develop over 100% VA due to enthalpy).
So, to move from 80% efficiency to 95% VA earns you 15%. And 115% of the factory 128 hp is 147 hp. That is less than half-way to the claimed 170 hp!!! However, 147 hp in the hands of a notice may "feel" like 170, 200, 225... whatever. Also, the engine will sound extreemly "throaty", because you are hearing the air rush through the engine... Unhook your airbox from your throttle body and take a two-minute drive... you will be amazed at the difference in engine sound... yet you are getting 5% VA improvement max (about 6hp). *Note: don't run your engine for long period of time with the airbox unhooked, get a cold-air intake, it's as close as you'll get to an open throttle body.
..So, this work is somewhere between $2k and $4k... that is roughly $105 to $210 per horsepower. Is this a value to anyone?
The V-Tec system does an excellent jog of raising volumetric efficiency. The VE may be 85-90% for a reasonalbe good range of rpm, say 4000 to 6000 rpm, and then drops off to, let's say, 75% over the last 1000 rpm.
So from the Honda website we see that the hp is LX / EX 115 @ 6100 / 127 @ 6300. Well, for the EX, the VE is still quite good at 6300 rpm... let's say 80%. Now, porting, polishing, manifold changes, cold-air intakes and the like give us what... VA, volumetric efficiency. However, they cannot give you more than 100%. Realistically, getting past 95% is for big budget race teams only. (turbocharging will develop over 100% VA due to enthalpy).
So, to move from 80% efficiency to 95% VA earns you 15%. And 115% of the factory 128 hp is 147 hp. That is less than half-way to the claimed 170 hp!!! However, 147 hp in the hands of a notice may "feel" like 170, 200, 225... whatever. Also, the engine will sound extreemly "throaty", because you are hearing the air rush through the engine... Unhook your airbox from your throttle body and take a two-minute drive... you will be amazed at the difference in engine sound... yet you are getting 5% VA improvement max (about 6hp). *Note: don't run your engine for long period of time with the airbox unhooked, get a cold-air intake, it's as close as you'll get to an open throttle body.
..So, this work is somewhere between $2k and $4k... that is roughly $105 to $210 per horsepower. Is this a value to anyone?
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[hr]Originally posted by: SOHCScreamer
do any of you guys realize that 170 hp on our cars is STILL SLOW????[hr]
[hr]Originally posted by: SOHCScreamer
do any of you guys realize that 170 hp on our cars is STILL SLOW????[hr]
When you compare that to a car like a corvette perhaps. But going from 127 to 170hp is a big jump. It should be fairly quick with 170hp.
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CDMX its gonna cost you a lot more than just couple hundred to get 170 hp...i think if it was that easy most members here woulda played it safe and put 2G or so into that set up instead of a Turbo set up or nitrous...being the fact that your suggestion would be all motor...umm...your prices seem to be about right, but custom manifold & polish and ported prob run you a good 1300 just to begin with dependin on the size of the port, plus you dont want jus any machine shop to do it...you want the best b.c. you want good seals etc...so thats more parts you'll need....anyways, I dont even know if our block would be able to hold amount of power like that wihtout needin some type of work itself....plus you gotta think of fuel management thats gonna run you some more cash if you do go with this setup, maybe someone needs to find out what kinda pistons might fit into our cars b.c. that is prob what our cars need..high compression, LOT HIGHER! seems like a good idea to try doe wouldnt hurt...I dont know if our motors stock will ever hit high 14's doe without some type of forced induction...but my opinoion the setup your lookin at would prob run you at least 2300 I would think if it was done right
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[hr]Originally posted by: mxm477
So, the website claims 170 hp... but what data do they give you to back it up? Think critically about claims people make on their set-ups. If it seems too good to be true, it problably is.
The V-Tec system does an excellent jog of raising volumetric efficiency. The VE may be 85-90% for a reasonalbe good range of rpm, say 4000 to 6000 rpm, and then drops off to, let's say, 75% over the last 1000 rpm.
So from the Honda website we see that the hp is LX / EX 115 @ 6100 / 127 @ 6300. Well, for the EX, the VE is still quite good at 6300 rpm... let's say 80%. Now, porting, polishing, manifold changes, cold-air intakes and the like give us what... VA, volumetric efficiency. However, they cannot give you more than 100%. Realistically, getting past 95% is for big budget race teams only. (turbocharging will develop over 100% VA due to enthalpy).
So, to move from 80% efficiency to 95% VA earns you 15%. And 115% of the factory 128 hp is 147 hp. That is less than half-way to the claimed 170 hp!!! However, 147 hp in the hands of a notice may "feel" like 170, 200, 225... whatever. Also, the engine will sound extreemly "throaty", because you are hearing the air rush through the engine... Unhook your airbox from your throttle body and take a two-minute drive... you will be amazed at the difference in engine sound... yet you are getting 5% VA improvement max (about 6hp). *Note: don't run your engine for long period of time with the airbox unhooked, get a cold-air intake, it's as close as you'll get to an open throttle b
..So, this work is somewhere between $2k and $4k... that is roughly $105 to $210 per horsepower. Is this a value to anyone?[hr]
[hr]Originally posted by: mxm477
So, the website claims 170 hp... but what data do they give you to back it up? Think critically about claims people make on their set-ups. If it seems too good to be true, it problably is.
The V-Tec system does an excellent jog of raising volumetric efficiency. The VE may be 85-90% for a reasonalbe good range of rpm, say 4000 to 6000 rpm, and then drops off to, let's say, 75% over the last 1000 rpm.
So from the Honda website we see that the hp is LX / EX 115 @ 6100 / 127 @ 6300. Well, for the EX, the VE is still quite good at 6300 rpm... let's say 80%. Now, porting, polishing, manifold changes, cold-air intakes and the like give us what... VA, volumetric efficiency. However, they cannot give you more than 100%. Realistically, getting past 95% is for big budget race teams only. (turbocharging will develop over 100% VA due to enthalpy).
So, to move from 80% efficiency to 95% VA earns you 15%. And 115% of the factory 128 hp is 147 hp. That is less than half-way to the claimed 170 hp!!! However, 147 hp in the hands of a notice may "feel" like 170, 200, 225... whatever. Also, the engine will sound extreemly "throaty", because you are hearing the air rush through the engine... Unhook your airbox from your throttle body and take a two-minute drive... you will be amazed at the difference in engine sound... yet you are getting 5% VA improvement max (about 6hp). *Note: don't run your engine for long period of time with the airbox unhooked, get a cold-air intake, it's as close as you'll get to an open throttle b
..So, this work is somewhere between $2k and $4k... that is roughly $105 to $210 per horsepower. Is this a value to anyone?[hr]
There's a few factors your neglecting here. Compression, Igntion timing and air flow.
The Intake manifold on the DX/LX engines (same as the vtec's I presume) Would add a fair bit of resistance at 4800rpms up goven only 80% Volumetric efficiency.
Volumetric efficiency only deales with the use of the air that is in the cylinder. If the cylinder is on;y half full of air and 80% Efficient it's great for fuel economy and is still very efficient.
However if say the cylinder is 75% Filled with air at 90% Volumetric efficiency, thanks to new cams, port work and a new manifold. and a good cool air charge for the volume of air. Proper compression and ignition advancement for better fuek use and it's potentially alot more power.
Our engines with the TB's and intake manifold flow only enough air to fill the cylinders with a 40% clean air charge at 6500rpms (given the 1.7l displacement) Given good port work.. no cheap crap done by an mateur with a dremel... port work is a fine art.. High flow doesn't mean crap if the air velocity under pulse is crappy.
New mild cams. and port work, new intake manifold, good CAI will increase the air mass going into the cylinder for some fair gains. 11-15HP. Just adding air volume..not increasing efficiency.
Headers, and Exhaust system will allow more clean air in for another 3-5 Horsies(after prot work the gains will be higher than with a stock manifold). Still just more air. not increase in efficiency.
Gives you a base here of 17 more HP. so we're up to 145. with a VTEC engine (139ish with a DX because of the lower compression).
Now Add high compression pistons, Tune the cam and ignition timing and increase volumetric efficiency.
78% efficiency 145 peak HP. (rough ex) Say Volumetric efficiency is increased to 92% (not unreasonable with dyno tuning and pump gas) 165 Crank HP.
the redline can safely be raised another 400rpms with Hondas balancing and OEM valve train. there's another 6 or 7 HP free'd up provided the TB, Manifold, and ports can flow that well (which they very easily should).
Feel free to argue this all day. GO to any professional engine builder (not local tuning shop) and argue with them...they'll give you the same information. There's alot of track build D16's out there pushing 200HP, but that kind of gain required a sturdier valve train and better balancing, new fasteners, gaskets and a higher redline.
Given what I've listed it fits in with KMS 1.7l Civic with the 9400rpm redline and 12.5:1? Compression pistons and ITB's (more flow just to support the amount air being drawn at 9400)...
Wher'e Joe for feedback [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]
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From: Car Audioville, Quebec, Canada
Rep Power: 0 at 100%clean air intake at 6500rpms a 1.7: engine will condume 390 cu.ft of air per minute.
The OEM manifold flows around 227CFM Without an intake. Just the OEM manifold with TB bolted on a WOT. This allows for about a 58% clean air charge at 6500rpms. the intake and filter will restrict another 3-4 CFM. with a good CAI.
The engine can be taken up to about 68% clean air withot reliability really being comprimized.
The intake manifold, cams, port work, exhaust, header. will allow for this no problem.
Just given the same amount of efficiency breathing mods will give you 148 HP.
Increase the fuel volumetric efficiency from 83-92% leaves you with 164.
Mind you with the different cam profiles tuned to make power a little bit higher up it will be around 170ish. add another 400rpms add another few horsies.
The same peak numbers can be made with the vtec and non-vtec engines.
The advantage of VTEC in this case is that you don't have to comprimise your low end power anywhere near as much because below the vtec point with the much milder cams you'll still have good low end and a smooth idle..
With a non vtec head, Your idle would have to be around 11-1200rms and would be rough and you'd have little power before 3000rpms (noticably less than stock) and at around 4200rpms where the cam tuning comes into play you'll have a rapid increase in torque and HP right up to redline....Fine for a track car ..useless for a street driven car.
The OEM manifold flows around 227CFM Without an intake. Just the OEM manifold with TB bolted on a WOT. This allows for about a 58% clean air charge at 6500rpms. the intake and filter will restrict another 3-4 CFM. with a good CAI.
The engine can be taken up to about 68% clean air withot reliability really being comprimized.
The intake manifold, cams, port work, exhaust, header. will allow for this no problem.
Just given the same amount of efficiency breathing mods will give you 148 HP.
Increase the fuel volumetric efficiency from 83-92% leaves you with 164.
Mind you with the different cam profiles tuned to make power a little bit higher up it will be around 170ish. add another 400rpms add another few horsies.
The same peak numbers can be made with the vtec and non-vtec engines.
The advantage of VTEC in this case is that you don't have to comprimise your low end power anywhere near as much because below the vtec point with the much milder cams you'll still have good low end and a smooth idle..
With a non vtec head, Your idle would have to be around 11-1200rms and would be rough and you'd have little power before 3000rpms (noticably less than stock) and at around 4200rpms where the cam tuning comes into play you'll have a rapid increase in torque and HP right up to redline....Fine for a track car ..useless for a street driven car.
