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Greetings all,

I will begin by listing all of the information pertaining to my build. I am building from a 2005 Civic LX. I have a complete D17A2 engine to go in it. I have removed and stripped the cylinder head, leaving the bottom end as is, after observing next to no wear on the cylinders. I have a crower stage 2 N/A camshaft to go in the cylinder head, complete with valve springs and retainers. I also have an aem adjustable cam gear, new timing belt, and water pump for the build. I also have an AFC neo, K&N Typhoon SRI, Random Technologies high flow catalytic convertor, Megan 4-1 header, and Vibrant Performance catback exhaust. I plan to plane about .020" off of the cylinder head to up the compression ratio, which is doable only because of the adjustable cam gear. At this point, I am waiting for the port and polish to be done on the cylinder head. Once this is done, I am going to have the valves ground as well as the valve seats. My question to those who are experienced and have done these builds is, can I get this setup to idle with the afc neo, or am I going to have buy an EMS to get the damn thing to idle.

 
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BUY the EMS, its the onle way you will get the rev point your cam will need and idel will be fubar'd w/out it as well.

 
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Thank you for your advice HWT, I appreciate the prompt response.

Do you run a similar setup to this?

 
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No one really runs these things with NA setups... the 10-15 HP gained isnt worth the expense when the same money can buy 60-80 HP with boost. I also dont think I'd be running any sort of invested motor with an AFC controller and a stock ECU. Buy at the least a true piggyback, even better, a Hondata box or AEM EMS.

 
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Thank you Boilermaker, that is good advice. I have heard mixed ideas about the hondata, where can i price it out and read about it? I kinda figured the afc neo would not do the job.

 
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http://www.hondata.com/kpro_d17.html

 
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What is the better weapon of choice, AEM EMS or Hondata? Can someone please list out the pros and cons of each for this type of build.

 
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no one has the hondata, it came out less than 2 weeks ago. Best thing before spending $1400 on something is to do your own research, make some calls and decide for yourself.easily put, neither of them suck.

 
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Thanks for the info Boilermaker. I just dont feel like gettin jammed up with the wrong engine management system and kickin myself in the @ss for the next several years. Again, all advice is appreciated.

 
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I have been running a very similair set up. the only way to get it to idle is either hondata or ems. Hondata is currently running on my car. They are using my car to develop a tuned map for an na setup on a 7th gen. There is still more tuning to be done but it runs soooo much smoother now and no longer dies at traffic lights. I lost the dyno printout they gave me but i'll start a new thread once everything is completely done. IMO return the cam gear since hondata comes with a special one, pick up a cheap ep3 or base rsx ecu and do it. running the vafc2 didn't do much there where plenty of lean spots that it could not tune. once they are done with my tune it will be available for everyone.


Its kinda wierd revving past the stock red line it freaks me out a bit.

 
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Haha, sounds great DJMota.

Any help you can offer would certainly be appreciated. I wanna get this ordered ASAP as my engine build is currently getting goin, just cylinder head assembly and re-attaching to the block.

 
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wow.... sounds cool. i'd suggest EMS only because the kpro hasnt been publicly tested. i also believe you'll need to use their cam gear instead your original aem one. but like boiler said, cant go wrong with either companies.

 
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If you really want max power, you need to bump compression ratio up over 9.5:1. Try 12.5:1 or so. Run higher octane fuel and rev to about 8k with either aem or hondata and tune it. I wouldn't waste time or money on a stage II cam, go with the stage III, why limit yourself?

As far as hondata goes, how can anyone say it sucks? Not only has nobody used it yet but look at the results the k series guys have with it, they all love it. If it works that well on a k series engine, it will no doubt do the same on a d series.

As far as the idle goes, all you need to do is adjust the idle control screw....

 
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12.5:1!!!! Andy this kid would be running straight race gas all the time or atleast a huge mix. MAYBE 11:1 would be fine. If he is in CA, he only will have 91 octane available, which pigeon holes him further.

 
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The D17 K-Pro system is identical to the one used by several thousand K series owners. In addition the underlying ECU hardware is made by Honda. So it is extremely reliable.

We expect to have a D17 Crower stage 2 cam map and dyno results posted here within the week, along with feedback from the owner.

 
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realistically it isnt cost effective to run the set up with EMS. you may get around 150whp after all is said and done and you have invested about $4k into your set up. milling the head isnt the greatest idea. gearbox had a lot of issues after DH racing did his port and polish and milled the head. PnP would also be ideal since youd be running a larger profile cam. I would also look into some arp rod bolts as to not spin the rod berrings when revving to 8k vs 7k stock redline.

boost is much cheaper on this motor and ou get much better gains. i dont want to talk you out of it but make sure you know what your getting in to before you get too deep. i would reccomend EMS or hondata as well.

if you want to bump the cr i would do a set of pistons but you will have to clay the motor to ensure proper valve clearance. you will have to do this either way even if you decide to mill the head against reccomendation.

 
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Okay All,

I think I have reached a decision. It looks like I am going to order the EMS. For a few reasons, I am gonna get the one with the wideband (not available as part of Hondata), I already have an AEM cam gear (saves getting another if I bought Hondata). I have not had anyone tell me reasons for not getting the AEM EMS other than Hondata is original Honda and I can get a bit of a discount EMS that Hondata does not offer.

Let me know, I am still open to criticisms and critique.

I do not want to regret this decision, ALL info/experience you veterans have is very valuable to me so please give your input (as long as it isnt "go turbo" or "K20").

Thanks again all,

Warren

 
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Hondata is much cheaper, even with the cam gear. The wideband isn't a factor, you can use a wideband with the hondata, so it IS an option, you just need to supply your own wideband sensor.

 
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I understand that Hondata is cheaper, but by the time I buy an ECU, pay shipping/brokerage/duty etc. to ship it to California and then pay the $1175 for the programming, I am not much farther ahead and then I have to buy a wideband to add to the system.

The AEM system (Part# 30-1030U) from what I understand has a wideband as part of it, as well as some other neat features for inputs/outputs.

I understand you have used this system in the past, what are your impressions of it?

I do value your help and expertise.

Thanks

 
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If you have an 01-03, you can only datalog Wideband with the Kpro, it wont run the car off of it (straight out of Hondata's mouth, I called them), whereas an EMS with a UEGO hooked up, will run the car off a wideband.
He's got an 05, its not overly relevant here, but just to clear it up, Kpro will not necessarily run your car off a Wideband input.
Dont forget with the K pro, you also need to find a K-series ECU, which I've seen between from $100-250 depending on which one.
$1175+ 175 avg) and you're at 1350... same roughly as an EMS, but now you have the added expense and pain in the *** of installing that cam gear (which doesnt necessarily require, but common sense would seem to dictate, also changing the timing belt). IMO, the Hondata is really no cheaper than the AEM.

 
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It is cheaper. 1175 for programming. I just spent 140 shipped on a PNR ecu. You pay shipping one way, which for an ecu shouldn't be more than 15 bucks. So, you're looking at a little over 1300, total cost to run the kpro. Not including a tune, but for the 1175, Hondata dealers will usually include the tuning cost with the ecu purchase, whereas, you buy an aem and have to pay to have it tuned.

 
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I'm not sure what hondata told you, but lets look at the facts. Frist off, you don't HAVE to run a wideband at all with kpro once you're tuned, just like any other standalone system, you can run it in open loop. Closed loop is more or less a temporary fix between tunes, if you even want to go that route. I have never used closed loop o2 operation. To me, one of the best benefits is running open loop is, if there are variations in your air fuel ratios under boost, you don't have a computer making adjustments based off of the o2 feedback, it is set, so you know when there is an issue somewhere, such as an injector malfunctioning, fuel pump, or ignition problem.

Like I said, I'm not sure what Hondata told you bro, but it sounds like there may've been some confusion. Think of it as a bigger picture. Certain Honda vehicles have ecu's that are used as donor ecu's and come stock with wideband o2 sensors, right? So the computer was designed to run closed loop with a wideband sensor right out of the box. The ECU references the voltage from that sensor and adjusts fuel flow accordingly. What difference would having an 05 civic make with a computer's ability to adjust fuel flow with that same sensor if it was able to do it in another vehicle? There may be something simple I'm overlooking but it doesn't make sense to me.

Timing belt doesn't require changing, either. Also, again, consider the fact that tuning comes with the kpro purchase. I thought the aem was going for around 1700 nowadays....

 
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Well I'm gonna let the Hondata guy clarify what he told me... but if you want the K-pro seeing a wideband signal for any other reason but datalog, and you've got an 01-03, it cant see it. I've got some emissions related things going on, which more or less, if you intend to attempt to keep it actually in compliance with the standards, is impossible because you rewire the O2 sensors so the primary gets read on the secondary channel. I'm fully aware that OBD issues go away with a click of a button, however. BUT, I'm going off what I was told on the phone.

... and I evidently missed the part where it says the purchase price includes a tune... website gives a price installed, says nothing about including dyno time.

 
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Well, that all depends on your tuner, I suppose. I know I have a friend here who was quoted the cost of the kpro with tuning and it was the kpro retail price. A hondata dealer can charge whatever they want but they make a pretty penny with the sale of a $1300 part. As far as the o2 sensors go, I've actually been trying to research that myself for the past 2 weeks and thought I had it all cleared up with talking to Doug about it. I will definitely look deeper into it so we have some definitive answers.

 
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That isn't true. There are guys all over honda-tech and sohchonda.com that are running 12.5 on 93 octane all day long. You just have to make sure the timing is set right with reasonable egt's. Race gas isn't necessary for that c/r.

 
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i have no idea what you guys are talking about, but yet its fascinating.

 
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Ask if they are running 91 or 93 and/or an octane additive. EGTs are a byproduct of the AFR run on the vehicle and VE of the combustion chambers. Furthermore, ignition advance is going to be minimal without dentonation for sure. MUCH more can be bled out of the car if a race gas or mix was used as apposed to pump.

 
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Its going to be 93, of course. Timing is key as far as heat goes, that's a given. And you can always pull MUCH more with race fuel.

 
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Excellent discussion here everyone. Does anyone know if I buy the non-wideband AEM EMS, is there a way to connect a wideband to it later on in the future? If so, what is involved?

 
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Ill tell you this much, i had my 11:5:1 compression SC'ed K20a running in California on 91 octane.. and i have also have a few friends that have there D16's upwards of 12:5:1 compression that have them as their DD's. Its all in the tune.. So you can run a 12:5:1 sohc motor on cali gas no problem.. The problem you will have is when you go much higher, such as the 13's and 14's in compression.