why NOT to use dino 5w20 oil!!!
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why NOT to use dino 5w20 oil!!!
Face it. 2003 up Civics are Guinee pigs in this experiment. Perhaps Honda is tired of their engines lasting 300.000 miles !
5w20 will ruin your engine faster. plain and simple. Yes, it does increase some power and milage but the trade off is you'll be tradin in sooner. Pour some in a cup next to 10w30 and the difference is huge. It looks like tea. There hasnt been enough cars of these years with enough milage on them to tell me if its protecting. Any pea brain knows that the motors didnt change in the 7th gen so if your not running a quality full synthetic like Amsoil 5w20 or Mobil One 5w20 then you had better be running 10w30 dino oil.
Aggree or not, show me enough 100,000 mile 2003+ Civics that have had their engines broken down and still be within 100 % factory specs with this crap, like the 2000-2002 civics that are running synthetic oils, or at the very least, are running 30 weight and changing every 3-5000 miles.
5w20 will ruin your engine faster. plain and simple. Yes, it does increase some power and milage but the trade off is you'll be tradin in sooner. Pour some in a cup next to 10w30 and the difference is huge. It looks like tea. There hasnt been enough cars of these years with enough milage on them to tell me if its protecting. Any pea brain knows that the motors didnt change in the 7th gen so if your not running a quality full synthetic like Amsoil 5w20 or Mobil One 5w20 then you had better be running 10w30 dino oil.
Aggree or not, show me enough 100,000 mile 2003+ Civics that have had their engines broken down and still be within 100 % factory specs with this crap, like the 2000-2002 civics that are running synthetic oils, or at the very least, are running 30 weight and changing every 3-5000 miles.
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5w20 will ruin your engine faster. plain and simple
Yeah , my 01 is at 100,300 miles and I only got 40-42 mpg on my last long interstate trip a fewweeks ago! Engine must be way out of spec! Would be nice if you had some kind of real evidences to support your claim other than pouring oil into a cup and not liking the appearance.
Engine on my Civic runs as good as new and I drive a lot harder than the average driver. I'll let you know how the car is doing at 200,000 miles! I have only used 5W-20 conventional oil - changing about every 4000 miles.
Yeah , my 01 is at 100,300 miles and I only got 40-42 mpg on my last long interstate trip a fewweeks ago! Engine must be way out of spec! Would be nice if you had some kind of real evidences to support your claim other than pouring oil into a cup and not liking the appearance.
Engine on my Civic runs as good as new and I drive a lot harder than the average driver. I'll let you know how the car is doing at 200,000 miles! I have only used 5W-20 conventional oil - changing about every 4000 miles. 
and any car can makee it to 100k so yours is nothin special. Wait a bit. My evidence is common sense. 
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Put down the crack pipe!!! You started your thread saying engines won't go 100k on the thin oil, bullseye proves you wrong and your fall back is your "common sense?"
O1's were retrospeced (is that a word?) to 20w as were a lot of Hondas back to 97. It isn't just Civics but Accords and other Honda cars.
Honda isn't the only one with a 20w reccomendation. Ford is using it in a great number of their cars/trucks including their V10 F series. Their V10s are rated to haul their weight of a couple of our cars so the oil does work.
I will agree that our engines haven't changed in spec but let's look at what your "put it in a glass" experiment won't reveal. You can't see the additive package (which is extremely robust) or the chemical makeup of the oil. All you're seeing is a maple colored syrup and that in itself tells poop without a virgin and a used oil analysis. Those that have done them show that it's getting to be boring without seeing a bad analysis.
M1 5W-30 shears down to nearly a 20W during use (accepted industry standard) but M1 0W-20 stays a 20 because it was engineered to stay in grade. Don't pooh-pooh the lighter oils.
You may now resume your smoking.
Put down the crack pipe!!! You started your thread saying engines won't go 100k on the thin oil, bullseye proves you wrong and your fall back is your "common sense?"
O1's were retrospeced (is that a word?) to 20w as were a lot of Hondas back to 97. It isn't just Civics but Accords and other Honda cars.
Honda isn't the only one with a 20w reccomendation. Ford is using it in a great number of their cars/trucks including their V10 F series. Their V10s are rated to haul their weight of a couple of our cars so the oil does work.
I will agree that our engines haven't changed in spec but let's look at what your "put it in a glass" experiment won't reveal. You can't see the additive package (which is extremely robust) or the chemical makeup of the oil. All you're seeing is a maple colored syrup and that in itself tells poop without a virgin and a used oil analysis. Those that have done them show that it's getting to be boring without seeing a bad analysis.
M1 5W-30 shears down to nearly a 20W during use (accepted industry standard) but M1 0W-20 stays a 20 because it was engineered to stay in grade. Don't pooh-pooh the lighter oils.
You may now resume your smoking.
Last edited by Flashlightboy; Aug 29, 2004 at 12:15 PM.
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Really? Well , 5W-20 is printed right on the oil filler cap on my 01 Civic. It is stated in the owner's manua to use 5W-20 as well. So , where are you getting your info from?
and any car can makee it to 100k so yours is nothin special.
It is special according to your statement "5w20 will ruin your engine faster. plain and simple." By that reckoning my Civic's engine should be a smoking , no compression , rattling piece of junk by now. Like I say - get some credible evidence.
You may now resume your smoking.
Agreed!
Really? Well , 5W-20 is printed right on the oil filler cap on my 01 Civic. It is stated in the owner's manua to use 5W-20 as well. So , where are you getting your info from?
and any car can makee it to 100k so yours is nothin special.
It is special according to your statement "5w20 will ruin your engine faster. plain and simple." By that reckoning my Civic's engine should be a smoking , no compression , rattling piece of junk by now. Like I say - get some credible evidence.
You may now resume your smoking.
Agreed!
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Rep Power: 287 damn redvtec. do some research before you make these claims. 5w-20 puts up just as good used oil analysises as other grades.
http://bobistheoilguy.com/
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi
go there, and educate yourself. so then you'll realize yourself that you're a moron and i dont have do say it. whoops, i already did.
http://bobistheoilguy.com/
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi
go there, and educate yourself. so then you'll realize yourself that you're a moron and i dont have do say it. whoops, i already did.
i have a 03 civic with 30k miles on it, and since the first oil change i used vavoline sinthetic blend 5w-20 with a fram tough guard filter, that has kept the engine running as new, i get really good mileage and i drive really hard too. if you want you engine to last longer regardless of what oil you use, change the oil at least every 2,500 miles or sooner if you race or drive hard.
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Rep Power: 338 So Honda wants their claim to fame to fail?
Right. Having their reliability factor, which 95% of their buyers look at, is what Honda want's to destroy.
Now I have a question for you. In what world would this business strategy, that you've obviously came up with, prove to be a good strategy?
Right. Having their reliability factor, which 95% of their buyers look at, is what Honda want's to destroy.
Now I have a question for you. In what world would this business strategy, that you've obviously came up with, prove to be a good strategy?
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Just so you know, the tolerances in hondas are so tight that the thinner oil has actually proven to be better. The molecules are smaller. Under normal operating conditions 5w 20 will be just as good if not better than anything else. If you are boosted then its good to use thicker oil because the molecules supposedly spread out a lil with the higher heat putting it closer to spec. You can run zero weight synthetic in these cars and have no problem. I has seen many people run that stuff with the miles piling on there cars.
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Rep Power: 0 Owned my ***. Heres the only reason for the change..nowhere does it say "improved engine protection".
The only reason 5w20 was specified for your engine is to increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the Federal Government. CAFE is the combined average fuel economy of all of a vehicle manufacturer's product line. Minimum CAFE levels are specified by the Federal Government. In order for a vehicle manufacturer to continue selling profitable large trucks and SUV's, which typically have poor fuel mileage, and still meet mandated CAFE requirements, they must also sell smaller cars which have much better fuel economy ratings to offset the poor fuel economy ratings of the larger vehicles.
Heres another fact:
5w20 oil has less film and shear strength than a 5w30, 10w30 or a 0w30 motor oil. This can lead to increased engine wear under today's demanding heat and high-stress engine performance conditions.
So if you want to risk it then so be it, but my research is just fine. After all these years of trouble free engines why would anyone do this? The ones who are crying bullshit have to. They have been using this crap in their cars and dont want to know that they are ruining their motors. So there are 2 sides and this is one of them.
The only reason 5w20 was specified for your engine is to increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the Federal Government. CAFE is the combined average fuel economy of all of a vehicle manufacturer's product line. Minimum CAFE levels are specified by the Federal Government. In order for a vehicle manufacturer to continue selling profitable large trucks and SUV's, which typically have poor fuel mileage, and still meet mandated CAFE requirements, they must also sell smaller cars which have much better fuel economy ratings to offset the poor fuel economy ratings of the larger vehicles.
Heres another fact:
5w20 oil has less film and shear strength than a 5w30, 10w30 or a 0w30 motor oil. This can lead to increased engine wear under today's demanding heat and high-stress engine performance conditions.
So if you want to risk it then so be it, but my research is just fine. After all these years of trouble free engines why would anyone do this? The ones who are crying bullshit have to. They have been using this crap in their cars and dont want to know that they are ruining their motors. So there are 2 sides and this is one of them.
Last edited by redvtec04; Aug 30, 2004 at 07:50 AM.
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Rep Power: 338 Heres what a little search found for me:
Thicker is Better Myth
The reason that oil viscosities have gotten thinner is because bearing clearances have become smaller. Using thicker oils will interfere with oil flow and the oil pressure will increase. In a worn engine it may be okay to increase the viscosity of the oil because the bearing clearances have become larger.
The reason that oil viscosities have gotten thinner is because bearing clearances have become smaller. Using thicker oils will interfere with oil flow and the oil pressure will increase. In a worn engine it may be okay to increase the viscosity of the oil because the bearing clearances have become larger.
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Originally Posted by redvtec04
Owned my ***. Heres the only reason for the change..nowhere does it say "improved engine protection".
The only reason 5w20 was specified for your engine is to increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the Federal Government. CAFE is the combined average fuel economy of all of a vehicle manufacturer's product line. Minimum CAFE levels are specified by the Federal Government. In order for a vehicle manufacturer to continue selling profitable large trucks and SUV's, which typically have poor fuel mileage, and still meet mandated CAFE requirements, they must also sell smaller cars which have much better fuel economy ratings to offset the poor fuel economy ratings of the larger vehicles.
The only reason 5w20 was specified for your engine is to increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the Federal Government. CAFE is the combined average fuel economy of all of a vehicle manufacturer's product line. Minimum CAFE levels are specified by the Federal Government. In order for a vehicle manufacturer to continue selling profitable large trucks and SUV's, which typically have poor fuel mileage, and still meet mandated CAFE requirements, they must also sell smaller cars which have much better fuel economy ratings to offset the poor fuel economy ratings of the larger vehicles.
Then again, what Honda gets poor mileage (except for gearbox's civic because....well...frankly, his car is a freak of automotive nature)?
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Rep Power: 338 Another search revealed where you got your facts. What you failed to do was reveal the whole answer.
http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/ford5w20.htm has the EXACT same wording as your post, except, it has the whole answer.
Here is what you left out.
Also, that webpage is VERY biased. Infact, it appears that AMSOIL made the webpage. What kind of manufactuer isn't biased to their own products?
http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/ford5w20.htm has the EXACT same wording as your post, except, it has the whole answer.
Here is what you left out.
For model year 2001, the change to a 5W-20 oil will allow Ford and Honda's overall CAFE to increase by a very small amount, typically in the tenths of a mile per gallon range. 5W-20 oil is a lighter viscosity than a 5W-30 oil and therefore has less internal engine frictional losses, or less drag on the crankshaft, pistons and valvetrain, which in turn promotes increased fuel economy. This increased fuel economy is virtually undetectable to the average motorist without the use of specialized engine monitoring and testing equipment under strictly controlled test track driving when compared to a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 viscosity motor oil.
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I might agree with you except that Honda (I can provide documention if you'd like) has already said, publicly, that they are so far beyond the CAFE requirements that it isn't a concern for them. Let me repeat myself in case you were taking a hit on the crack pipe again - CAFE target goals were met and exceeded by Honda years ago and the switch was not motivated by a government mandated overall mileage requirement.
Durability - Honda has also said, publicly I might add, that durability is not an issue with the thin oil and if it was they wouldn't be recommending it. Period.
I think were this argument is breaking down is that there is the "thicker is better" crowd that says thick oils protect best and the Honda (and my argument too) position that thin oils flow faster thereby removing the engine heat better. The thicker oils may actually be detrimental (40W+) because they engine has to work harder to pump them and the oil actually remains hotter due to increased friction while trying to circulate through the engine.
I believe that you see lots of cars that are getting 200k miles out of them on thick oils because quite frankly that's all there was. As time goes on we'll see the same thing with the 20w oils.
I might agree with you except that Honda (I can provide documention if you'd like) has already said, publicly, that they are so far beyond the CAFE requirements that it isn't a concern for them. Let me repeat myself in case you were taking a hit on the crack pipe again - CAFE target goals were met and exceeded by Honda years ago and the switch was not motivated by a government mandated overall mileage requirement.
Durability - Honda has also said, publicly I might add, that durability is not an issue with the thin oil and if it was they wouldn't be recommending it. Period.
I think were this argument is breaking down is that there is the "thicker is better" crowd that says thick oils protect best and the Honda (and my argument too) position that thin oils flow faster thereby removing the engine heat better. The thicker oils may actually be detrimental (40W+) because they engine has to work harder to pump them and the oil actually remains hotter due to increased friction while trying to circulate through the engine.
I believe that you see lots of cars that are getting 200k miles out of them on thick oils because quite frankly that's all there was. As time goes on we'll see the same thing with the 20w oils.
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Rep Power: 0 I feel that most of our engines running life is in the hot mode. The first number pertains to the cold flowability. when the engine heats up the crank slings the oil to lubricate. A thinner oil will not bond as well as a thicker oil. The 30W is still thin enough to get into all the passeges or they wouldnt have used it previously. Im stating that 30W is better than 20W in a 4. The tollerances are the same in 01 as they are in 04.
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Rep Power: 298 Thats what I was trying to say, tolerances are tighter. Oil that is too thick will ruin your engine. If we were all running a big block chevy then oil as thin as water would be a catastrophy waiting to happen. Compare honda specs to any american car manufacturer. Way tighter tolerances. Thats why hondas last so long. What they tell you to use will work best under normal conditions. Colder, warmer, and abusive environments require different oil specs. Face it dude, you are wrong. Honda doesnt want their cars to blow up. They have so many years of rep to lose. Why do you think their cars are more money in comparison to american cars? Maybe because they are better and they wont have as quick of a resale, the higher price compensates for that. The same reason they dont offer 7 year warantees, they don't need to. Everyone knows they will last you dont hafta question that. Honda is not going to be stupid enough to throw away their main advantage for a couple dollars in service. Just my opinion though but I'm sure you will tell me I'm wrong.
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Originally Posted by cambo
Now what large truck and/or SUV does Honda sell that they would need to offset their poor mileage?
Then again, what Honda gets poor mileage (except for gearbox's civic because....well...frankly, his car is a freak of automotive nature)?
Then again, what Honda gets poor mileage (except for gearbox's civic because....well...frankly, his car is a freak of automotive nature)?
I agree. Honda doesnt make Suburbans, Expedtions, or Hummer. Honda is in no trouble with the CAFE requirements.
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red,
I can't bring myself to agree with you on this one. Yes, too thick of an oil would have a harder time flowing throw the passages but the oil is under pressure via the pump and is forced through the holes. That said, 30w oils sheer down to a 20w during use thus the 20w is a "better" oil because it stays within grade. 30w oils that don't shear such as RL or German Castrol are probably too thick and may lead to a performance loss.
My position on oil weight selection is to match the oil with the application. Everyday use that sees some heavy pulls and freeway/city driving a 20w is more than sufficient and I wouldn't have any qualms about using. It really is, IMO, an engineering marvel. The oil has a robust additive package, stays in grade, works with various engines and gives a whisker better mileage to boot. There is no reason not to use it.
If you have heavy mods then a bump in grade is probably appropriate. I think Honda's recognition of this is borne out in their non 20w recommendation in the DOHC VTEC.
I believe that you've got it by jov!
red,
I can't bring myself to agree with you on this one. Yes, too thick of an oil would have a harder time flowing throw the passages but the oil is under pressure via the pump and is forced through the holes. That said, 30w oils sheer down to a 20w during use thus the 20w is a "better" oil because it stays within grade. 30w oils that don't shear such as RL or German Castrol are probably too thick and may lead to a performance loss.
My position on oil weight selection is to match the oil with the application. Everyday use that sees some heavy pulls and freeway/city driving a 20w is more than sufficient and I wouldn't have any qualms about using. It really is, IMO, an engineering marvel. The oil has a robust additive package, stays in grade, works with various engines and gives a whisker better mileage to boot. There is no reason not to use it.
If you have heavy mods then a bump in grade is probably appropriate. I think Honda's recognition of this is borne out in their non 20w recommendation in the DOHC VTEC.
Last edited by Flashlightboy; Aug 30, 2004 at 07:25 PM.
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Rep Power: 0 i worked at jiffy lube over the summer, and all i can say is, use the oil meant for ur car. after 75k miles, u should switch to a high mileage motor oil.
for our cars. 5-30/10-30 is all ya need.
i think 5-20 is too thin in my opinion
for our cars. 5-30/10-30 is all ya need.
i think 5-20 is too thin in my opinion Registered!!
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I don't think a blanket 75k thick oil statement is true in all circumstances. Although Valvoline and oil manufacturers have successfully touted these new oils, I think the real test is a compression test and overall oil burning rates.
If the car still tests within spec and isn't burning oil at an appreciable rate then I don't think a high mileage oil is an absolute.
Having looked at UOAs for both 20 and 30w oils doesn't reveal fundamental flaws in the thin oil. Use it freely, bathe with it, use it as an aftershave and a deoderant. It's that good. Plus it makes a great hair gel. 30w is more like a mouse.
I don't think a blanket 75k thick oil statement is true in all circumstances. Although Valvoline and oil manufacturers have successfully touted these new oils, I think the real test is a compression test and overall oil burning rates.
If the car still tests within spec and isn't burning oil at an appreciable rate then I don't think a high mileage oil is an absolute.
Having looked at UOAs for both 20 and 30w oils doesn't reveal fundamental flaws in the thin oil. Use it freely, bathe with it, use it as an aftershave and a deoderant. It's that good. Plus it makes a great hair gel. 30w is more like a mouse.
Last edited by Flashlightboy; Aug 30, 2004 at 07:05 PM.
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Rep Power: 0 good post guys...i would like to be better in english to tell to this guy...you're a moron...but you're very entertaining!!! a heavy weight oil in a tight tolerence engine 
If you running boost or do endurance racing OK but daily driving with a stock engine go with a good 5w20 
If you running boost or do endurance racing OK but daily driving with a stock engine go with a good 5w20 Registered!!
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Originally Posted by redvtec04
Heres another fact:
5w20 oil has less film and shear strength than a 5w30, 10w30 or a 0w30 motor oil. This can lead to increased engine wear under today's demanding heat and high-stress engine performance conditions.
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Rep Power: 0 Just look at the UOAs on 5w20 (or 0w20 synthetic) oil over at BITOG. I think I'll make my decision based on real data vs. pouring oil into a cup and looking at it. It could look like a pile of horse ****, if a 20w oil will get me better mileage, and protection better than most 5w30's, I'm going to use it.
By the way, I don't know what planet you're on, but every 2001 model year Civic I've ever seen has 5w20 written on the oil cap. Including the one in my driveway. The 00's spec 5w30. It's OK for Honda to change their mind when a better oil comes along.
Edit: I also won't take oil advice from someone who claims to be a "VTEC MASTER" but just figured out that the HX is equipped with VTEC. Welcome to 1997 buddy, long before the days of 5w20.
By the way, I don't know what planet you're on, but every 2001 model year Civic I've ever seen has 5w20 written on the oil cap. Including the one in my driveway. The 00's spec 5w30. It's OK for Honda to change their mind when a better oil comes along.
Edit: I also won't take oil advice from someone who claims to be a "VTEC MASTER" but just figured out that the HX is equipped with VTEC. Welcome to 1997 buddy, long before the days of 5w20.
Last edited by VTEC01EX; Aug 31, 2004 at 09:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by Flashlightboy
spector,
I don't think a blanket 75k thick oil statement is true in all circumstances. Although Valvoline and oil manufacturers have successfully touted these new oils, I think the real test is a compression test and overall oil burning rates.
If the car still tests within spec and isn't burning oil at an appreciable rate then I don't think a high mileage oil is an absolute.
Having looked at UOAs for both 20 and 30w oils doesn't reveal fundamental flaws in the thin oil. Use it freely, bathe with it, use it as an aftershave and a deoderant. It's that good. Plus it makes a great hair gel. 30w is more like a mouse.
I don't think a blanket 75k thick oil statement is true in all circumstances. Although Valvoline and oil manufacturers have successfully touted these new oils, I think the real test is a compression test and overall oil burning rates.
If the car still tests within spec and isn't burning oil at an appreciable rate then I don't think a high mileage oil is an absolute.
Having looked at UOAs for both 20 and 30w oils doesn't reveal fundamental flaws in the thin oil. Use it freely, bathe with it, use it as an aftershave and a deoderant. It's that good. Plus it makes a great hair gel. 30w is more like a mouse.
very true, it all depends on how you drive your car. theoretically, people with manuals imports are gonna dawg there cars alot more than somone w/ a automatic, simply because theres only so much you can do a/ an auto ya know. but constant stop and go traffic is gonna put stress on the tranny and engine, so its best to stick w. a synthetic blend (high mileage more specifically) once u surpass 75k
