PLEASE READ-Base Maps INSIDE!
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7thgen Power Maker
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PLEASE READ-Base Maps INSIDE!
Ok. Now that I have your attention.....I have heard this thrown around, and have been PM'd numerous times regarding this. The issue is TUNING.
As many of you have noticed, our car is Naturally Aspirated by production. Any addition or modification to this represents potential for hazard, breaking, wear n tear, and unstability. [This includes Nitrous & Turbo].
It is recommended all of the proper precautions are taken to ensure the upmost safety and reliability out of your new found power. TUNING is like the car god's blessing to optimal performance and reliability. TUNING IS AN ESSENTIAL, and CAN NOT, nor SHOULD NOT BE AVOIDED! I can not emphasize this enough. Even if you do not dyno tune, atleast street tune or track tune for safer and more reliable performance. How many members are on this forum boosted? How many are actually tuned? [exactly] So many members think it is ok to just slap a $3500 turbo kit on and drive. NOT EXACTLY! You are inducing an unstable element into a controller environment. HOW CAN THIS BE FINE? Buying a turbo, installing it and not tuning is the equivalent of buying a brand new 350Z, getting the Brembo Stoppers, Custom Paint, Leather Interior and NOT HAVING ANY WHEELS ON THE CAR TO DRIVE IT. IT MAKES NO SENSE.
Now some people have tried to take a pirated approach to tuning in asking people who tuned their car to post their maps....This makes no sense again! Even though it is the same turbo kit, same car and all, it DOESN'T MEAN EACH IS GOING TO REACT THE SAME. Every motor, driver, location, fuel, oil, and many many other variables are different. Therefore, each tuning scenario will be entirely different. If someone in Denver, CO happens to have an identical Civic, identical mods, oil, everything and I drove both cars identical and I say tuned the one in Denver. I can not just flop those maps onto this car. They are still utterly different. The car is going to be tuned for a higher altitude, less humidity etc. Here in Buffalo, NY it's VERY humid and a lot lower elevation. These factors mean huge differences in the cars performance response. So in a nutshell, that idea is
I know funds can be tight, but don't do a 3/4 job. You want the best $$ can buy for you car on everything else: Oil, brake fluid, exhaust, suspension, gas.....Why not with this? I understand $$ can be very tight so I am inviting all those that live in our general vicinity to call us, set an appointment and we'll tune your car for an awesome rate of $50/HR on the street or $200 for the first hour on DYNO, then $85 for each additonal HOUR on the DYNO.
All tuning is done with Wideband O2 & data logging. An additional O2 sensor must be in your downpipe too. You may purchase that from us as well. Street tuning ensures safe boosting under most driving conditions. DYNO tuning ensures optimal power and safe boosting.
Required Gauges for Tuning: Boost or Nitrous & EGT. Any other useful gauges are a plus.
So if there are any questions, please feel free to ask!
As many of you have noticed, our car is Naturally Aspirated by production. Any addition or modification to this represents potential for hazard, breaking, wear n tear, and unstability. [This includes Nitrous & Turbo].
It is recommended all of the proper precautions are taken to ensure the upmost safety and reliability out of your new found power. TUNING is like the car god's blessing to optimal performance and reliability. TUNING IS AN ESSENTIAL, and CAN NOT, nor SHOULD NOT BE AVOIDED! I can not emphasize this enough. Even if you do not dyno tune, atleast street tune or track tune for safer and more reliable performance. How many members are on this forum boosted? How many are actually tuned? [exactly] So many members think it is ok to just slap a $3500 turbo kit on and drive. NOT EXACTLY! You are inducing an unstable element into a controller environment. HOW CAN THIS BE FINE? Buying a turbo, installing it and not tuning is the equivalent of buying a brand new 350Z, getting the Brembo Stoppers, Custom Paint, Leather Interior and NOT HAVING ANY WHEELS ON THE CAR TO DRIVE IT. IT MAKES NO SENSE.
Now some people have tried to take a pirated approach to tuning in asking people who tuned their car to post their maps....This makes no sense again! Even though it is the same turbo kit, same car and all, it DOESN'T MEAN EACH IS GOING TO REACT THE SAME. Every motor, driver, location, fuel, oil, and many many other variables are different. Therefore, each tuning scenario will be entirely different. If someone in Denver, CO happens to have an identical Civic, identical mods, oil, everything and I drove both cars identical and I say tuned the one in Denver. I can not just flop those maps onto this car. They are still utterly different. The car is going to be tuned for a higher altitude, less humidity etc. Here in Buffalo, NY it's VERY humid and a lot lower elevation. These factors mean huge differences in the cars performance response. So in a nutshell, that idea is
I know funds can be tight, but don't do a 3/4 job. You want the best $$ can buy for you car on everything else: Oil, brake fluid, exhaust, suspension, gas.....Why not with this? I understand $$ can be very tight so I am inviting all those that live in our general vicinity to call us, set an appointment and we'll tune your car for an awesome rate of $50/HR on the street or $200 for the first hour on DYNO, then $85 for each additonal HOUR on the DYNO.
All tuning is done with Wideband O2 & data logging. An additional O2 sensor must be in your downpipe too. You may purchase that from us as well. Street tuning ensures safe boosting under most driving conditions. DYNO tuning ensures optimal power and safe boosting.
Required Gauges for Tuning: Boost or Nitrous & EGT. Any other useful gauges are a plus.
So if there are any questions, please feel free to ask!
Last edited by dezod; Aug 19, 2004 at 02:42 PM.
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7thgen Power Maker
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Originally Posted by StreetLevelPerformance
Just an honest question no harm intended, are you or whoever is doing the tuning a certified tuner? For example, you can attend classes to become an AEM EMS certified tuner.
AEM EMS is ok. Quite in depth, but tuning for the most part is a lot easier & the base maps provide an EXCELLENT platform to start. He can create maps, but is very time consuming.
Last edited by dezod; Aug 20, 2004 at 07:55 AM.
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Rep Power: 584 it all about experience, and not certification, my guy is certified in nothing at all, hes built plenty of cars, including one that was on the cover of SCC. so dont let a no certified tuner scare u away, they are just as good, IF NOT BETTER
Originally Posted by C2i0v0i1C
it all about experience, and not certification, my guy is certified in nothing at all, hes built plenty of cars, including one that was on the cover of SCC. so dont let a no certified tuner scare u away, they are just as good, IF NOT BETTER
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Originally Posted by C2i0v0i1C
it all about experience, and not certification, my guy is certified in nothing at all, hes built plenty of cars, including one that was on the cover of SCC. so dont let a no certified tuner scare u away, they are just as good, IF NOT BETTER
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The point of sharing information is because a well done base map makes life easier if you are running the same set up. You can generally get an idea of what changes were required, in what areas, and then verify for your vehicle. I agree that should not be to think that you are safe, however there are many circumstances, that it would work out just fine, or work out to be very close. I've worked with some great tuners and played with turbo, s/c kits from everything on Prowlers, BMWs, Supras, to Jeeps. We came accross a lot of aftermarket kits that included software, because it was safe to do so. There were certain situations where you could tell the kit would never have run properly on even the first vehicle with that map... whoever put it together obviously having a welllllll below average tuning IQ. This is the main problem with the internet. You come accross a lot of people that believe they know what they are talking about, or get a group who follow one guy running 12s with his $15,000 set up because he has money and appears to have knowledge. The issue here is asking these below average tuning IQ people for base maps. Your car will run retarded just like theirs.
The all vehicles with the same kit are utterly different theory just because it rains one day in one city, has holes. There are capabilities within a lot of newer ECUs, even non-forced induction applications that allow for some lee-way (long term/short term fuel trims being around since the late 80s in some ecus). the big problem with newer vehicles is the attempts to cut back on emissions, fault codes, and stock a/f feedback and part throttle, and sometimes even WOT. i.e. Modify the MAP/MAF signal, ecu sees rich, and corrects it back to 14.7:1 driving around with those longterm/shortterm trims. Some of the newer ECUs have horrible 'limp' modes if it detects something that isn't kosher... especially on drivebywire vehicles. i.e. takes 5 seconds to go to a max of 1/2 or 1/4 throttle until you clear that code. Whee.
In case of these Civics (and a lot of newer cars), under most any situation driving around town, (until 3/4+throttle position), your a/f is 14.7:1. If you make corrections to this, I would think it would happily uncorrect them. This is truly bad with boost and will likely be a bigger concern for a street vehicle than WOT tuning will be. Why are mid rpms so detrimental? Having a stoich air/fuel ratio in an area with boost where the engine needs a faster flame front with richer mixture = bad news for turbo civic guy. A slower flame front speed encountered in mid rpm range means that travelling flame has more time to preheat the end mixture and making combustion temps hotter and causing local hot-spots means pre-ignition/detonation....
People need to understand that mid-rpms and reasonable boost is liekly to be where you will encounter problems with the higher volumetric efficiency encountered in the mid rpm ranges. Even with that aside, it comes down to the fact that anywhere there is boost, you can usually come up with relatively safe car by verifying proper a/f ratio and that timing is not excessive.
There are a lot of circumstances where people just need to be pointed in the right direction. Good tuning is what will make the car survive, even it means turning the boost down a few psi from what 'everybody is running'. I don't agree in fear mongering people into getting tuned, but your vehicle should be tuned on solid principles and verified with proper wb02 at minimum. Wherever/however you can do that... it's the way to go. If I didn't believe it was so important, I wouldn't drill it into my friends brains like I do as well.
I still say, share information and try and learn from each other, and a well put together base map can be of great help to people... but, don't expect tuners to share their hard work setting up maps just because you want them to, and try not to listen to someone just because it runs good because they 'said so'.
The all vehicles with the same kit are utterly different theory just because it rains one day in one city, has holes. There are capabilities within a lot of newer ECUs, even non-forced induction applications that allow for some lee-way (long term/short term fuel trims being around since the late 80s in some ecus). the big problem with newer vehicles is the attempts to cut back on emissions, fault codes, and stock a/f feedback and part throttle, and sometimes even WOT. i.e. Modify the MAP/MAF signal, ecu sees rich, and corrects it back to 14.7:1 driving around with those longterm/shortterm trims. Some of the newer ECUs have horrible 'limp' modes if it detects something that isn't kosher... especially on drivebywire vehicles. i.e. takes 5 seconds to go to a max of 1/2 or 1/4 throttle until you clear that code. Whee.
In case of these Civics (and a lot of newer cars), under most any situation driving around town, (until 3/4+throttle position), your a/f is 14.7:1. If you make corrections to this, I would think it would happily uncorrect them. This is truly bad with boost and will likely be a bigger concern for a street vehicle than WOT tuning will be. Why are mid rpms so detrimental? Having a stoich air/fuel ratio in an area with boost where the engine needs a faster flame front with richer mixture = bad news for turbo civic guy. A slower flame front speed encountered in mid rpm range means that travelling flame has more time to preheat the end mixture and making combustion temps hotter and causing local hot-spots means pre-ignition/detonation....
People need to understand that mid-rpms and reasonable boost is liekly to be where you will encounter problems with the higher volumetric efficiency encountered in the mid rpm ranges. Even with that aside, it comes down to the fact that anywhere there is boost, you can usually come up with relatively safe car by verifying proper a/f ratio and that timing is not excessive.
There are a lot of circumstances where people just need to be pointed in the right direction. Good tuning is what will make the car survive, even it means turning the boost down a few psi from what 'everybody is running'. I don't agree in fear mongering people into getting tuned, but your vehicle should be tuned on solid principles and verified with proper wb02 at minimum. Wherever/however you can do that... it's the way to go. If I didn't believe it was so important, I wouldn't drill it into my friends brains like I do as well.
I still say, share information and try and learn from each other, and a well put together base map can be of great help to people... but, don't expect tuners to share their hard work setting up maps just because you want them to, and try not to listen to someone just because it runs good because they 'said so'.
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Originally Posted by Whatthe
...People need to understand that mid-rpms and reasonable boost is liekly to be where you will encounter problems with the higher volumetric efficiency encountered in the mid rpm ranges. Even with that aside, it comes down to the fact that anywhere there is boost, you can usually come up with relatively safe car by verifying proper a/f ratio and that timing is not excessive.
There are a lot of circumstances where people just need to be pointed in the right direction. Good tuning is what will make the car survive, even it means turning the boost down a few psi from what 'everybody is running'. I don't agree in fear mongering people into getting tuned, but your vehicle should be tuned on solid principles and verified with proper wb02 at minimum.......
There are a lot of circumstances where people just need to be pointed in the right direction. Good tuning is what will make the car survive, even it means turning the boost down a few psi from what 'everybody is running'. I don't agree in fear mongering people into getting tuned, but your vehicle should be tuned on solid principles and verified with proper wb02 at minimum.......
Please note we are not fear mongering anyone into this. Merely making simple verifiable statements. Performance and reliability will prevail on a tuned vehicle over a non-tuned vehicle.
Overall, excellent post.
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Rep Power: 0 Thanks, sorry didn't mean to come accross negative that statement. 
People talk to too many tooners and get the wrong idea. You guys sound like good tuners though. I just try to add information, even if not everyone will understand the point behind it. A lot of automotive stuff becomes counter-intuitive in ways the more you learn.
You'll probably see me more in the forced induction section, as it's what I like to play with.... even though I personally probably won't be adding FI to this car for a little while yet.
People talk to too many tooners and get the wrong idea. You guys sound like good tuners though. I just try to add information, even if not everyone will understand the point behind it. A lot of automotive stuff becomes counter-intuitive in ways the more you learn. You'll probably see me more in the forced induction section, as it's what I like to play with.... even though I personally probably won't be adding FI to this car for a little while yet.
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Rep Power: 0 I agree, some people (me included) are looking for some sort of basemap to start off of. I am not expecting to just put in someone elses working (for their setup) map & use that forever in my car, I am looking for a map to start from, that will help my tuner a lot, and perhaps save me time & money in the long run.
So I will ask again if there are any people with e-manage boosted tuned 7thgen's that would be willing to share their maps for others to use as a "tuning guide / base map" it would be greatly appreciated toward helping others, thanks.
So I will ask again if there are any people with e-manage boosted tuned 7thgen's that would be willing to share their maps for others to use as a "tuning guide / base map" it would be greatly appreciated toward helping others, thanks.
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