Traction issues
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Traction issues
Ok. If you have visited the forced induction forums within the past 6 months, you probably know my car. If not, here is the jiist of it...
2002 lx Turbo
~275-300 whp.
Before my motor work i ran a 13.6 @ 102 mph @ 3000 ft. on stock suspension and 15" Azenis
Now DHracing has helped me out quite a bit with my motor.
Anyway, to get back to my question. I build turbo systems. I am not a suspension genious. I would like to have some of your opinions on what all you people think i should use. I am fully sponsored by several companies, so cost is not too terribly much of an issue.
When i race, i run on 15" GSR rims and falken 205/60 azenis. I have serious traction issues. I cannot hook up unti i hit 4th gear. I have to run my low boost setting until 3rd gear, then i turn it up. on my low boost (7 psi) i can pull off 2.0 60/ft times. I would like to cut this time down by .2 sec AND launch on at least 10 psi. I am trying to run mid 12's on a radial, and the stock suspension is just not cooperating. Which brands/models should i look into?
Any help is greatly appreciated. I am looking into springs instead of coilovers.
2002 lx Turbo
~275-300 whp.
Before my motor work i ran a 13.6 @ 102 mph @ 3000 ft. on stock suspension and 15" Azenis
Now DHracing has helped me out quite a bit with my motor.
Anyway, to get back to my question. I build turbo systems. I am not a suspension genious. I would like to have some of your opinions on what all you people think i should use. I am fully sponsored by several companies, so cost is not too terribly much of an issue.
When i race, i run on 15" GSR rims and falken 205/60 azenis. I have serious traction issues. I cannot hook up unti i hit 4th gear. I have to run my low boost setting until 3rd gear, then i turn it up. on my low boost (7 psi) i can pull off 2.0 60/ft times. I would like to cut this time down by .2 sec AND launch on at least 10 psi. I am trying to run mid 12's on a radial, and the stock suspension is just not cooperating. Which brands/models should i look into?
Any help is greatly appreciated. I am looking into springs instead of coilovers.
Autocross Junky
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I can help you with setting up your suspension for cornering..... Not much use in drag racing though.
But...... I might be able to help any way.
SO here goes.
First you need to know about how a tire makes traction. Basically it all deals with weight. the more weight a tire has on it the more traction it will make. Unfortunatly a FWD car has some weight transfer issues.. Meaning when you press on the gas the weight of the car gets transfered to the back, making the front tires lose traction. Now you can not stop a car from transfering weight, you can lower the amount transfered and you can control how fast it gets transfered. To reduce the amount of weight transfered simply lower the car, this may help a little, but controling how fast weight gets transfered will probably yeald more gains.
How to do that..... It deals with shocks. mainly in their Bump and rebound settings.
Bump is when the shock is compressed, and rebound is when the shock is expanded. so on a drag launch the front shocks will Expand (Rebound) and the rear will compress (Bump), you can use this to slow down how fast the weight gets transfered off the front tires and on to the back. what I would try is having the front shocks set to have stiff valving on Rebound and the rear to have a soft setting on Bump. that way the weight will come off the front slowly, wich may give you a bit more traction on launch..... Maybe. If you dont have double adjustible shocks availible a set of single adjustibles will do ok, just set the rears to soft (on most single adjustible shocks you can only adjust the bump settings.) Test and tune is the best option, try it like above and then tweak the settings. Just know you may have some wierd Corner entry and exit characteristics with your shocks set that way......
also, lose the Azenis, and pick up a set of Kumho V700 or Victoracers. they are easily twice as sticky and they are Street legal (DOT), at least for the first 50 miles. If you can, try to find a good drag radial.
oh ya, If you Keep the Azenis, mount them on at least a 7.5" wheel, 8 if at all possible. They have a Very wide contact patch and the wider wheel lets you use more of it.
But...... I might be able to help any way.
SO here goes.
First you need to know about how a tire makes traction. Basically it all deals with weight. the more weight a tire has on it the more traction it will make. Unfortunatly a FWD car has some weight transfer issues.. Meaning when you press on the gas the weight of the car gets transfered to the back, making the front tires lose traction. Now you can not stop a car from transfering weight, you can lower the amount transfered and you can control how fast it gets transfered. To reduce the amount of weight transfered simply lower the car, this may help a little, but controling how fast weight gets transfered will probably yeald more gains.
How to do that..... It deals with shocks. mainly in their Bump and rebound settings.
Bump is when the shock is compressed, and rebound is when the shock is expanded. so on a drag launch the front shocks will Expand (Rebound) and the rear will compress (Bump), you can use this to slow down how fast the weight gets transfered off the front tires and on to the back. what I would try is having the front shocks set to have stiff valving on Rebound and the rear to have a soft setting on Bump. that way the weight will come off the front slowly, wich may give you a bit more traction on launch..... Maybe. If you dont have double adjustible shocks availible a set of single adjustibles will do ok, just set the rears to soft (on most single adjustible shocks you can only adjust the bump settings.) Test and tune is the best option, try it like above and then tweak the settings. Just know you may have some wierd Corner entry and exit characteristics with your shocks set that way......
also, lose the Azenis, and pick up a set of Kumho V700 or Victoracers. they are easily twice as sticky and they are Street legal (DOT), at least for the first 50 miles. If you can, try to find a good drag radial.
oh ya, If you Keep the Azenis, mount them on at least a 7.5" wheel, 8 if at all possible. They have a Very wide contact patch and the wider wheel lets you use more of it.
Last edited by Zzyzx; Dec 31, 2003 at 03:08 AM.
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From: Luling, Louisiana
Rep Power: 0 Try some lowering springs. Or maybe drag springs like skunk2 or something like that. Maybe a 16 with 215 or 15 with 215. Try a bf goodwrench n/a drag tire. A wider tire will help to put power to the road and there is more road to catch. I'm not the greatest person to ask, but zzyzx has the idea. You may also want to stiffen up your chasis to help when launching, less give in your suspension.
Ask dh-racing how they setup their drag car. Maybe you can incorperate some ideas.
Ask dh-racing how they setup their drag car. Maybe you can incorperate some ideas.
The Standard One
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Rep Power: 416 it might look ugly but i'd say get neuspeed sports for sedan...
i had these on my coupe and the front i probably had like a 2 finger gap while the rear i had 4. the higher rear should put more weight on the front giving you more traction. also neuspeeds are one of the stiffer springs on the market so you wont lean back as much as you do with something soft such as stock springs.
or if you want maybe even look into the race spring(what john has).
a set of damper adjustable shocks would help too as Zzyzx said...
and ya obviously wider tires = more traction.
i had these on my coupe and the front i probably had like a 2 finger gap while the rear i had 4. the higher rear should put more weight on the front giving you more traction. also neuspeeds are one of the stiffer springs on the market so you wont lean back as much as you do with something soft such as stock springs.
or if you want maybe even look into the race spring(what john has).
a set of damper adjustable shocks would help too as Zzyzx said...
and ya obviously wider tires = more traction.
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From: Washington DC
Rep Power: 423 My understanding of drag race suspension is you don't want the car to rock back when you launch it... if thats correct, then you're probably going to want something made that's got some pretty high damper stiffness settings. See if Koni can valve you a set of rears you can dial super stiff.... basically make them rods. Then get some springs made (Racing Ground Controls would work great) where you can get your own spring rates made, once again, stiff rear, mildly stiff front. You're probably going to have to play with it to get it right.
Get some fatter rims to spread the tire out (a 6" rim is kinda thin on an azenis).... I think someone just made a 15x7.5 (Kosei I think) and its pretty affordable. The more you can spread out the tire, the more of it you'll have on the ground.
Are something like BFG Drag Radials out of the question? I bet they'll be a little more suited to what you want than Azenis are.
Get some fatter rims to spread the tire out (a 6" rim is kinda thin on an azenis).... I think someone just made a 15x7.5 (Kosei I think) and its pretty affordable. The more you can spread out the tire, the more of it you'll have on the ground.
Are something like BFG Drag Radials out of the question? I bet they'll be a little more suited to what you want than Azenis are.
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Rep Power: 312 Damn... very good info. I think i am going to need some blend of road course and drag suspension. I have been running my vette around the road course, and its pretty addicting.
What brands are out there that would do what i need? Ok, i heard ground control... i can get those. But would they be adjustble enough for everything i want to do?
I am trying to get my hands on a set of rotas, 15x8.5. I have a friend within the company, and im trying to persuade him into getting me a set. Those rims are said to weigh about 9-10 lbs, and 8.5 is pretty deep. I think they would be awesome for the drag racing, but would they be too wide for the road course? Since i am lowering the car, would they rub?
What brands are out there that would do what i need? Ok, i heard ground control... i can get those. But would they be adjustble enough for everything i want to do?
I am trying to get my hands on a set of rotas, 15x8.5. I have a friend within the company, and im trying to persuade him into getting me a set. Those rims are said to weigh about 9-10 lbs, and 8.5 is pretty deep. I think they would be awesome for the drag racing, but would they be too wide for the road course? Since i am lowering the car, would they rub?
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From: Washington DC
Rep Power: 423 8.5s are probably going to rub if you're going to do any sort of hard cornering. As far as brands go... Ground Control/Koni is a cheap effective way to go with it. GC can make you Race sleeves (they're a little different than the street ones from what I understand, they're not progressive), they're very well made and the only ones I know of with a lifetime guarantee, even when you race on them. Koni can make a shock with any set of valving you want... go as stiff as you like.
You could step up to a Tein Flex, Tein can make you any spring rate you want, They told me it was $200-300 for a set of custom springs. Jic FLTA2s are just sold to the spec they are. JIC makes fully custom ones, the FLT-A2 RS. Someone calls you and asks you everything you want them to do, and they make them to your specs. They're $300-500 over the standard model. At this point, you're up to about $2500... so I'll stop. If you want more, say so. HKS, Mugen and Spoon have some options.....
You could step up to a Tein Flex, Tein can make you any spring rate you want, They told me it was $200-300 for a set of custom springs. Jic FLTA2s are just sold to the spec they are. JIC makes fully custom ones, the FLT-A2 RS. Someone calls you and asks you everything you want them to do, and they make them to your specs. They're $300-500 over the standard model. At this point, you're up to about $2500... so I'll stop. If you want more, say so. HKS, Mugen and Spoon have some options.....
Autocross Junky
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Rep Power: 380 O just remembered, the Falken Azenis doesnt like heat, and it loses a considerable amount of traction at around 200 Deg. so skip the burn out and try them cold. you may get a little more out of them.
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Rep Power: 312 I found that the azenis suck unless i do a burnout. They hook really well into 2nd after i launch. They are the only tires i found that i can pull a 2.0 60/ft with. I tried them cold, and it was a 2.4. I dont do an extremely long burnout, just enough to see smoke.
The Standard One
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Rep Power: 416 i personally wouldnt recommend ground controls.. thats just me tho... its soft(unless if you get the race springs with it) and the handling isnt as great.
well ur want to do the impossible which is cool and all but doin a 2.0 60 ft with the azenis is the lowest ur gonna go.....so unless u look into some slicks ur not gonna be goin any faster in the 60ft and not gonna lower ur total 1/4 time...what are u doin for motor mounts also and i know on the older civics some people change the front cross member and beif up the radius rods for bettter traction i have a jimfab crossmember in my crx but dont drag race the 7th gen so havent looked into anything with it as far as this type of setup
What everyone is saying will work. I just installed konis and eibach pro-kit. Before that my car would lurch up like 3 inches when i launched from a stop. Now, after having installed my suspension, the lurch up is hardly noticeable, maybe like a quarter of an inch. Now all i hav on my lx is an exhaust and an intake so that hardly any power making my car lurch up so much. Since ur running more than double my power just some stiffer shcoks and springs could make a world of difference.
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Rep Power: 312 Can i convert to an Si suspension? How hard is it to convert to that or the RSX suspension. The JIS magic coilover-shock/strut for the RSX and Si look extremely promising for my car.
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...
Catalyst, that's what I would recommend is a Jic MAGIC FLT-A2 set-up.
It's a strong coilover, that's a little rough, but great for a racer...everything is adjustable...and spring rate is adjustable independent of height.
I have the RSX waiting to get put in my car..just waiting on some warmer weather.
The RSX FLT-A2 requires a few small modifications, while the SI one fits perfect but is harder to fine.
It's a strong coilover, that's a little rough, but great for a racer...everything is adjustable...and spring rate is adjustable independent of height.
I have the RSX waiting to get put in my car..just waiting on some warmer weather.
The RSX FLT-A2 requires a few small modifications, while the SI one fits perfect but is harder to fine.
i have the Tein type Flex on my car and u just need to modify to hood webbing a lil bit to make em fit but they are worth it i love em....either way u go getting stiffer suspension is gonna help
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Rep Power: 412 I have the EP3 FLT-A2 but has yet to be installed. Spring rates are 8F/9R. You can get custom rates if you want them to be harder.
ep3 is the same unless u get the tein flex the edfc which it doesnt come with is designed to screw onto the top of the shock so the shock rod sits about 2 inches to high....which is why the hod webbing needs to be cut to use them
