dbramadged

I have a 2002 EX coupe (5sp) that I'm in the progress of installing a T25 into with a 3" cat back (may be too big), large front mount (2.5" piping) and running at about 8-10 psi. I was looking to see if anyone had any numbers out to tell me about how much HP and ft/lbs they're pushing out of the 1.7Ls??????? I'm looking to hit HOPEFULLY 185hp, but I think that may be out of range with the little T25. WHAT DO YA GOT?

jamie_civic

iTrader: (1)

well iv got a t3 turbo and 2.25" exhaust, 5.5 psi and im at 165whp.....at 10 psi you should be over 185...

02BLKCIVIC

iTrader: (8)

what engine management are gona use???

Also you have stock internals???

ajhdragon

iTrader: (5)

on 10psi you should be able to hit 185whp with the right tune.

Michalo187

iTrader: (33)

8 pounds should get you around anywhere from 160whp to 180whp. You could get better with a better tune. Run ems it will make your life easier

ctx66

i dont know about the ems making your life easier... a safc will make your life easier

jackburton

iTrader: (1)

Why is that?
It may cost him more to get it tuned, but when he does he will have great gas mileage, steady a/f, high hp, and will be able to drive around the coutnry, among other things.

Michalo187

iTrader: (33)

hahahahaha EASIER????? maybe cheaper but it would never be easier in a million years.
Install Safc- Splicing wires and **** to make it work
Install Ems- Plug and play

Tuning options on Safc
Tuning options on Ems

The way a 7thgen runs boost with Safc-
The way a turbo 7thgen runs boost with Aem Ems-

Believe me ask anyone on the forum with the ems... It makes your life way easier and makes the car feel way better and haul more ***. Its 1500 dollars but worth every penny and have never thought less of it.

ctx66

I agree with most of the things you've said above.

BUT, you've left out one key part of the equation. Which device is easier to tune? We're talkin a stand alone ecu vs a piggy back fuel computer..

Unless you can find a shop that has a lot of experience working with the ems, i wouldn't get one.

jackburton

iTrader: (1)

They are pretty popular and considering aem offers 2 day free seminars for tuners, I would imagine finding an experianced tuner would not be that hard.

Even if you had to drive pretty far it would be worth it.

I cant believe you can even compare the two, I dont think you can even get that much hp with a t25 and safc.

I guess it is easier, if you can live with a shitty tune and low hp.

ctx66

This right here shows that you have no idea what you are talking about whatsoever.

And if you think two days is enough time to learn how to work with an ems, you're sadly mistaken.


Call the compnay below and ask to speak to martin. Ask how easy it is to learn to tune with the ems and if two days is enough time.

Youre right, you can't compare the two. They are two completely different animals. But with the $1000+ you save by going with a s-afc, you can buy enough dyno time to tune the car yourself, or have it professionally tuned and your car will run just as good as with an EMS.

http://www.amsperformance.com/

Michalo187

iTrader: (33)

safc will never run as good as ems I don't care who tunes it. I had the emanage tuned and the car ran like **** and i kept having all sorts of tuning problems with the ems the car ran like it was ment for boost and no worries everything was perfect. My tuner is Aem Certified and charged 250 for a full tune. I got the ems the week it came out and believe me i would pay 2000 more for it than the emanage/safc/vafc anything.

ctx66

If you have a lot of money, and a good shop that knows the ems well, the ems is the only way to go. But if you plan on tuning the car yourself, and dont have a lot of money, the s-afc is the way to go.

Jack, or for anyone else who may not believe me. Just call any shop in the US who has experience tuning and ask them.

Tell them your going to be getting a turbo for your civic, and want to know which would be easier for yourself, not an experienced shop to tune. The ems, or a s-afc. Any shop will tell you the s-afc will be easier. Which goes back to my original point that the s-afc will make your life much easier. But of course if you have the money to buy an ems, and the money to pay a shop to tune the ems for you, then of course your life will be easier. When you have a lot of money of course your life will probably be easier, regardless of which tool you use to tune the car, because you wont be the one messing with it.

Michalo187

iTrader: (33)

well you shouldn't be turboing your car if you can't do it right. I don't have a lot of money but when it comes to doing **** right i want it right. I would never tune a turbo car myself. But hell yes i have Afc Neo on my si with bolt ons and dam i love it and its easy to work, but as far as in the long run my 1400 ems is only gonna take one tune and i will be go a lot faster and a lot more places than a safc can not even imagine. So yes tuning yourself the safc is easier but it won't make your life easier.

ctx66

I agree that you shouldnt be turboing your car if you cant do it right. Although i disagree that the ems will allow you to go a lot faster than the s-afc. I don't understand why you guys believe that the s-afc wont allow a car to reach its full potential. Did some members here have bad experiences with s-afc's so now everyone thinks badly of s-afc's?

Michalo187

iTrader: (33)

why do we believe this because i have personally had greddy emanage which is supposed to be better than safc and then i bought the ems so i can say i have experience with that and the ems is way better tuning and the car goes a lot faster.

02BLKCIVIC

iTrader: (8)

EMS for the win!!!

Nope its the "lack" of options with the safc...

ctx66

I agree, the s-afc cant compete when it comes to options vs the ems. then again they are two completely different things as stated earlier. as far as emanage vs s-afc vs ems in making power, they all should be around the same. the only reason why you would experience much more gains would be from improper tuning. you can fine tune better with the emanage and ems. but fine tuning doesnt give you substantial gains

02BLKCIVIC

iTrader: (8)

lol! I guess we will have to agree to disagree...

ctx66

works for me

jackburton

iTrader: (1)

I cant believe you can even compare the two, I dont think you can even get that much hp with a t25 and safc.
This right here shows that you have no idea what you are talking about whatsoever.

Why is that?
I would not want a tuner to try and get that much hp out of a stock d17 with the safc, no matter how experienced he or she is.

And if you think two days is enough time to learn how to work with an ems, you're sadly mistaken.

Maybe, maybe not, that was not my point. My point was that its worth it in the end to find an experienced tuner, they re out there, cause in the end it will pay off, saving time and money down the road.

as far as emanage vs s-afc vs ems in making power, they all should be around the same. the only reason why you would experience much more gains would be from improper tuning. you can fine tune better with the emanage and ems. but fine tuning doesnt give you substantial gains

It is not just "fine tunning" and the gains are pretty substantial. Andyman was running 250 whp with stock internals, now there is just no way anybody could do that with only a fuel controller. 187 as well as one or two others have had the same experiance.

Now Are you sure you did not just mean that the safc is simpler, and then jump to conclusions when I entered the equation, feelings from another thread no doubt.

blackicekswap

iTrader: (2)

check my k swap out

Michalo187

iTrader: (33)

well mine had 204whp and 213wtq with ems compared to 160whp and 160 wtq and i had the slipping clutch when i got 204whp

leonhsieh

iTrader: (6)

Tell me, how do u do "proper tuning" by just manipulating the map signal.

ctx66

i dont fully understand what you're asking.

blackicekswap

iTrader: (2)

Proper Tunning Should Be Left To The Pro's

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

I think it's pretty clear that you don't fully understand the dynamics of how an engine makes power. You can't just adjust fuel to make power. You have to be able to manipulate ignition timing. I don't care what anyone says, for longevity and power, it is absolutely necessary.

If you think they should be in the same range, why is it that people running the emanage/safc are only making around 160 whp with 6 psi and those of us running the aem are making over 200 whp? 40 whp is a big difference.....

Not to even mention the ecu's tendency to relearn over what you program a piggyback to do. Keeping the stock ecu to run the engine is never a good way to go when there are other options.

Michalo187

iTrader: (33)

^^^^ Here Here

ctx66

You just dont get it. I'm well aware of the differences in power you can get from changing ignition timing. Yes, you will make more power with the ems over the s-afc. Thats not what im arguing. What i dont like is that people think the ems is some magical tool that will give them substantial hp gains. Unless you have a **** poor tuned s-afc, you shouldnt get substantial gains. If you do, it just shows that you didnt have the s-afc set up right.

And michalo, and the others who seem to think i dont know what im talking about. How many other cars have you owned? How many other cars have you worked with? Your opinions are probably only based off your experiences with civics, and what you've read on 7thgencivic.com.

XSRCivic

iTrader: (19)

SAFC = map signal manipulation (takes in a voltage signal,adjusts it, sends it back out), serious lack of ignition timing control

AEM EMS = tells the engine EXACTLY what to do, no voltage manipulation, no ecu relearning, does almost everything under the sun.

Since when is being able to turn a **** and read a small manual making a turbo'd civic/whatever owner's life easier? That would cause more headaches on this car due to the fact that the ECU adjusts itself against your tuning (it learns). This may have worked miracles on some b series or old d series turbo motors but for us, its pure madness. Don't go mouthing off to people that you don't know nor that you have any knowledge of what they know and what they can do.