OFFICIAL Koni Rear Shock Information
02-11-2004
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OFFICIAL Koni Rear Shock Information
Mods, not sure if this should be a sticky, but alot of people have had problems and doubts about the rear perches and bushings on the Koni shocks. I got a good letter from Lee about the issue that sums it all up (I had been working with lee previously on the bushing migration issue over the Summer). Koni has been more than helpful in going out of their way to see that issues are resolved and understood.
From Lee....
Do you remember that game you played as a kid where you sat in a circle and whispered something to the kid next to you and they passed it on only to laugh about how screwed up it was when it reached the end? Discussion lists are perfect at that and this is what has happened here. Almost nothing stated here is correct.
Here are a few points:
1) There is not and will not be a welded ring on the shock body. There is no need for one and it would remove some of the spring perch adjustability.
2) There is no new design to the circlip itself or to the grooves cut in the shock body. They are a proven design used for over 20 years on many hundreds of applications worldwide.
3) The spring seat used on the ‘01+ Civic and the RSX was a new part for these cars and is being used on several other new Honda/Acura cars as well. There is a groove on the underside of that spring perch to capture the circlip when it is mounted on the shock. We have asked the company that makes these spring seats for Koni to machine that groove a little bit deeper than they had on the initial production runs so that the circlip will be more captured in the deeper groove.
4) When we had asked the company to slightly increase the depth of the groove of future spring seat production, we went through our current stock of Civic and RSX units and inserted an extra ring that could be put on the circlip and under the spring seat itself. This is a ring that we use periodically on spring seats that due to their bottom shape cannot have a groove machined in it. This was only a temporary addition in the interim time between the ordering and receipt of the spring perches with the slightly deeper grooves. Now that we have received the spring perches with slightly deeper grooves, no extra rings are being added.
5) In the photo shown, there you can clearly see that this shock has the extra ring that we provided in the interim. You can also clearly see that IT IS INSTALLED WRONG because the installer paid no attention to having it’s machined groove face down to capture the circlip. This is the whole key to the problem is that people are paying no attention to the design or the instructions which show that the groove must face down to capture the circlip whether the groove is in the spring seat itself or an added ring. A circlip that is properly captured so that it cannot expand in diameter and is loaded evenly can hold an extreme amount of weight and impact, a circlip that is not captured and can expand or is loaded unevenly is not nearly as strong as one correctly mounted.
6) The suspension design on the front and rear of the ‘01+ Civic and RSX was a radical departure from the previous Civic and Integra. When Koni developed the shocks for the Civic and RSX, we selected a bottom mount bushing that was less restrictive in angular motion than the one that Honda had used to better allow a freer motion, especially on lowered cars. This Koni bushing had been successfully used on a number of other cars and trucks and would reduce the complications of lowering spring and reduce a tendency to bend and bind the shock. We have found that the odd angle mounting on the Civic and RSX put extra side force on this more compliant bushing and some customers experienced this bushing to move a small amount. Koni has redesigned the bushing used on the RSX to be closer to the factory bushing and eliminate the chance for the bushing to move but it also is less complaint and less friendly when using lowering springs on the car. At this time it is not clear if we will use this bushing on the Civic rear shocks as the RSX is more picky about bushing movement. It is a tradeoff, the more complaint bushing is better for lowering and true suspension motion but more likely to move vs. a less complaint bushing that will not move but not be as accepting of off angle motion and lowering. It all goes back to the mounting and suspension design that Honda chose when they remade the suspension on the car. We simply have to work within the parameters of the suspension that they gave us.
7) There have been a number of teething problems from this design change and even Honda themselves has made some pretty big changes as these cars have been produced. Since Koni is making aftermarket parts for the cars, we must also adapt to Honda’s running design changes as well. In the future you will see some of the Civic rear shocks having more circlip grooves in the shock bodies because Honda has already started changing factory perch locations. They have also made a number of changes to the front units as well so one needs to specifically measure the diameter of each of your front strut housings before selecting the Koni insert for it. Again, this is only because Honda is changing around the struts that they provide.
That is pretty much the story. Please feel free to post this on 7thgencivic.com as it might clarify things for those who are hearing mixed signals and getting misled. If people have questions, they should contact a company directly themselves. Even when the person quoted Gordon from Koni, there was still some misunderstanding from even the first message. We see this all the time from many on-line car groups where people are very eager for information and eager to share but regularly the true information gets shifted around and heads off in the wrong direction. If you have a question, go directly to the people who know the answer. Any questions about Koni products should be directed to info@koni-na.com.
Lee Grimes
KONI North America
From Lee....
Do you remember that game you played as a kid where you sat in a circle and whispered something to the kid next to you and they passed it on only to laugh about how screwed up it was when it reached the end? Discussion lists are perfect at that and this is what has happened here. Almost nothing stated here is correct.
Here are a few points:
1) There is not and will not be a welded ring on the shock body. There is no need for one and it would remove some of the spring perch adjustability.
2) There is no new design to the circlip itself or to the grooves cut in the shock body. They are a proven design used for over 20 years on many hundreds of applications worldwide.
3) The spring seat used on the ‘01+ Civic and the RSX was a new part for these cars and is being used on several other new Honda/Acura cars as well. There is a groove on the underside of that spring perch to capture the circlip when it is mounted on the shock. We have asked the company that makes these spring seats for Koni to machine that groove a little bit deeper than they had on the initial production runs so that the circlip will be more captured in the deeper groove.
4) When we had asked the company to slightly increase the depth of the groove of future spring seat production, we went through our current stock of Civic and RSX units and inserted an extra ring that could be put on the circlip and under the spring seat itself. This is a ring that we use periodically on spring seats that due to their bottom shape cannot have a groove machined in it. This was only a temporary addition in the interim time between the ordering and receipt of the spring perches with the slightly deeper grooves. Now that we have received the spring perches with slightly deeper grooves, no extra rings are being added.
5) In the photo shown, there you can clearly see that this shock has the extra ring that we provided in the interim. You can also clearly see that IT IS INSTALLED WRONG because the installer paid no attention to having it’s machined groove face down to capture the circlip. This is the whole key to the problem is that people are paying no attention to the design or the instructions which show that the groove must face down to capture the circlip whether the groove is in the spring seat itself or an added ring. A circlip that is properly captured so that it cannot expand in diameter and is loaded evenly can hold an extreme amount of weight and impact, a circlip that is not captured and can expand or is loaded unevenly is not nearly as strong as one correctly mounted.
6) The suspension design on the front and rear of the ‘01+ Civic and RSX was a radical departure from the previous Civic and Integra. When Koni developed the shocks for the Civic and RSX, we selected a bottom mount bushing that was less restrictive in angular motion than the one that Honda had used to better allow a freer motion, especially on lowered cars. This Koni bushing had been successfully used on a number of other cars and trucks and would reduce the complications of lowering spring and reduce a tendency to bend and bind the shock. We have found that the odd angle mounting on the Civic and RSX put extra side force on this more compliant bushing and some customers experienced this bushing to move a small amount. Koni has redesigned the bushing used on the RSX to be closer to the factory bushing and eliminate the chance for the bushing to move but it also is less complaint and less friendly when using lowering springs on the car. At this time it is not clear if we will use this bushing on the Civic rear shocks as the RSX is more picky about bushing movement. It is a tradeoff, the more complaint bushing is better for lowering and true suspension motion but more likely to move vs. a less complaint bushing that will not move but not be as accepting of off angle motion and lowering. It all goes back to the mounting and suspension design that Honda chose when they remade the suspension on the car. We simply have to work within the parameters of the suspension that they gave us.
7) There have been a number of teething problems from this design change and even Honda themselves has made some pretty big changes as these cars have been produced. Since Koni is making aftermarket parts for the cars, we must also adapt to Honda’s running design changes as well. In the future you will see some of the Civic rear shocks having more circlip grooves in the shock bodies because Honda has already started changing factory perch locations. They have also made a number of changes to the front units as well so one needs to specifically measure the diameter of each of your front strut housings before selecting the Koni insert for it. Again, this is only because Honda is changing around the struts that they provide.
That is pretty much the story. Please feel free to post this on 7thgencivic.com as it might clarify things for those who are hearing mixed signals and getting misled. If people have questions, they should contact a company directly themselves. Even when the person quoted Gordon from Koni, there was still some misunderstanding from even the first message. We see this all the time from many on-line car groups where people are very eager for information and eager to share but regularly the true information gets shifted around and heads off in the wrong direction. If you have a question, go directly to the people who know the answer. Any questions about Koni products should be directed to info@koni-na.com.
Lee Grimes
KONI North America
02-11-2004
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Rep Power: 392 Thats why i like to call the company direct to get facts straight. People will say oh h&r cup kits are out just because they see it listed on a retail store but ya just because they listed it doesnt mean its out. Anyways good post and yes its sticky worthy.
02-11-2004
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Rep Power: 348 so what exactly does that mean??? the buying the koni inserts are worth the price or should i wait 2 more years for tokico to release their full shock/struts?
Injen
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02-12-2004
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Rep Power: 0 hi there, I'm new here but maybe my experience will be helpful to some.
The car is my GF's "get to work and back" car (automatic too). Handling isn't really the top priority but she hated the ugly wheel gap so we got her some Sportlines.
With OEM "shocks" the ride is beyond terrible - we have to apologize to passengers for the pounding. I held off on buying konis because I was intimidated by having to cut apart the stock front struts. I didn't want to do "irreversible" mods on the car.
Well that was stupid; these shocks are a service disaster and they're getting warrantied a LOT by Honda. Blown 7G front struts are easy to find; the service dep't at any Honda dealer should have a stack of scrap ones. They gave me a pair for free, I measured them to see if they were 50 or 55mm then ordered the koni's from robear.
Modifying the struts is easy. Drilling the 14mm holes in the bottom and draining the oil took all of 15 minutes at a friend's place. A muffler shop cut the shock bodies for me with a pipe cutter. Cost: $5. Because of the spring perch, a pipe cutter can't go to 1.8" from the end as recommended so you need to cut about 1/4 inch more with a sawzall then clean up the edges with some rough sandpaper. Easy. Just make sure you don't cut off too much length, the bumps on the konis need to go inside what's left of the OEM strut tube.
Doing all this on spare struts means you have it all done before going for the install. When you get to your mechanic's, the konis are already assembled and ready to put on. Quick n easy and saves you $$$
The OEM shocks were blown so I'll keep the warranty replacement shocks for reinstall when the car is sold and install the koni's instead. I can't wait to try out the ride.
The car is my GF's "get to work and back" car (automatic too). Handling isn't really the top priority but she hated the ugly wheel gap so we got her some Sportlines.
With OEM "shocks" the ride is beyond terrible - we have to apologize to passengers for the pounding. I held off on buying konis because I was intimidated by having to cut apart the stock front struts. I didn't want to do "irreversible" mods on the car.
Well that was stupid; these shocks are a service disaster and they're getting warrantied a LOT by Honda. Blown 7G front struts are easy to find; the service dep't at any Honda dealer should have a stack of scrap ones. They gave me a pair for free, I measured them to see if they were 50 or 55mm then ordered the koni's from robear.
Modifying the struts is easy. Drilling the 14mm holes in the bottom and draining the oil took all of 15 minutes at a friend's place. A muffler shop cut the shock bodies for me with a pipe cutter. Cost: $5. Because of the spring perch, a pipe cutter can't go to 1.8" from the end as recommended so you need to cut about 1/4 inch more with a sawzall then clean up the edges with some rough sandpaper. Easy. Just make sure you don't cut off too much length, the bumps on the konis need to go inside what's left of the OEM strut tube.
Doing all this on spare struts means you have it all done before going for the install. When you get to your mechanic's, the konis are already assembled and ready to put on. Quick n easy and saves you $$$
The OEM shocks were blown so I'll keep the warranty replacement shocks for reinstall when the car is sold and install the koni's instead. I can't wait to try out the ride.
Last edited by blacksheep; 02-12-2004 at 11:21 PM.
02-16-2004
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Rep Power: 0 i am doing my rears right now...
um.. how do i remove the bumpstop from the stock shock? do i just cut it along the side and peel it off?
um.. how do i remove the bumpstop from the stock shock? do i just cut it along the side and peel it off?
02-16-2004
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Rep Power: 0 no need to cut the bumpstop
there's a ridge on the shock but with a little force the bumpstop should pass over it. The only thing you need to mod on the rear shocks is to enlarge the hole a little bit on the bucket-shaped metal part
there's a ridge on the shock but with a little force the bumpstop should pass over it. The only thing you need to mod on the rear shocks is to enlarge the hole a little bit on the bucket-shaped metal part
02-16-2004
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Rep Power: 0 Originally posted by blacksheep
hi there, I'm new here but maybe my experience will be helpful to some.
The car is my GF's "get to work and back" car (automatic too). Handling isn't really the top priority but she hated the ugly wheel gap so we got her some Sportlines.
With OEM "shocks" the ride is beyond terrible - we have to apologize to passengers for the pounding. I held off on buying konis because I was intimidated by having to cut apart the stock front struts. I didn't want to do "irreversible" mods on the car.
Well that was stupid; these shocks are a service disaster and they're getting warrantied a LOT by Honda. Blown 7G front struts are easy to find; the service dep't at any Honda dealer should have a stack of scrap ones. They gave me a pair for free, I measured them to see if they were 50 or 55mm then ordered the koni's from robear.
Modifying the struts is easy. Drilling the 14mm holes in the bottom and draining the oil took all of 15 minutes at a friend's place. A muffler shop cut the shock bodies for me with a pipe cutter. Cost: $5. Because of the spring perch, a pipe cutter can't go to 1.8" from the end as recommended so you need to cut about 1/4 inch more with a sawzall then clean up the edges with some rough sandpaper. Easy. Just make sure you don't cut off too much length, the bumps on the konis need to go inside what's left of the OEM strut tube.
Doing all this on spare struts means you have it all done before going for the install. When you get to your mechanic's, the konis are already assembled and ready to put on. Quick n easy and saves you $$$
The OEM shocks were blown so I'll keep the warranty replacement shocks for reinstall when the car is sold and install the koni's instead. I can't wait to try out the ride.
hi there, I'm new here but maybe my experience will be helpful to some.
The car is my GF's "get to work and back" car (automatic too). Handling isn't really the top priority but she hated the ugly wheel gap so we got her some Sportlines.
With OEM "shocks" the ride is beyond terrible - we have to apologize to passengers for the pounding. I held off on buying konis because I was intimidated by having to cut apart the stock front struts. I didn't want to do "irreversible" mods on the car.
Well that was stupid; these shocks are a service disaster and they're getting warrantied a LOT by Honda. Blown 7G front struts are easy to find; the service dep't at any Honda dealer should have a stack of scrap ones. They gave me a pair for free, I measured them to see if they were 50 or 55mm then ordered the koni's from robear.
Modifying the struts is easy. Drilling the 14mm holes in the bottom and draining the oil took all of 15 minutes at a friend's place. A muffler shop cut the shock bodies for me with a pipe cutter. Cost: $5. Because of the spring perch, a pipe cutter can't go to 1.8" from the end as recommended so you need to cut about 1/4 inch more with a sawzall then clean up the edges with some rough sandpaper. Easy. Just make sure you don't cut off too much length, the bumps on the konis need to go inside what's left of the OEM strut tube.
Doing all this on spare struts means you have it all done before going for the install. When you get to your mechanic's, the konis are already assembled and ready to put on. Quick n easy and saves you $$$
The OEM shocks were blown so I'll keep the warranty replacement shocks for reinstall when the car is sold and install the koni's instead. I can't wait to try out the ride.
You were the one who pointed out the 2 different mm sizes. I contacted KONI for "blacksheep" to ensure we sent him the correct parts. I thank you for that information!!!
We work closely with KONI to ensure having the up-to-date product in stock and available to our customers.
Thanks!
02-16-2004
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Rep Power: 0 Originally posted by blacksheep
no need to cut the bumpstop
there's a ridge on the shock but with a little force the bumpstop should pass over it. The only thing you need to mod on the rear shocks is to enlarge the hole a little bit on the bucket-shaped metal part
no need to cut the bumpstop
there's a ridge on the shock but with a little force the bumpstop should pass over it. The only thing you need to mod on the rear shocks is to enlarge the hole a little bit on the bucket-shaped metal part
i had to cut it to remove it from the stock strut, since i couldn't seem to remove the washer that was blocking the way of it
02-22-2004
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02-27-2004
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Rep Power: 0 This really sucks. That is why I havven't gotten into dropping my car, b/c with springs its ok but the ride won't be great and after a while the shocks will give way.
So there are no shocks that you can just slap on(other than the stock) without modification? I mean I want to do reversible stuff to my car, not irreversible.
So there are no shocks that you can just slap on(other than the stock) without modification? I mean I want to do reversible stuff to my car, not irreversible.
03-04-2004
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Rep Power: 290 Originally posted by civicfreak84
This really sucks. That is why I havven't gotten into dropping my car, b/c with springs its ok but the ride won't be great and after a while the shocks will give way.
So there are no shocks that you can just slap on(other than the stock) without modification? I mean I want to do reversible stuff to my car, not irreversible.
This really sucks. That is why I havven't gotten into dropping my car, b/c with springs its ok but the ride won't be great and after a while the shocks will give way.
So there are no shocks that you can just slap on(other than the stock) without modification? I mean I want to do reversible stuff to my car, not irreversible.
HELLO.......McFLY!!!!
JUST GO TO HONDA AND GET A SET OF BLOWN SHOX TO MODIFY....and KEEP YOUR ORIGINAL SHOX!!! Easy switch for re-sale, and you don't do anything that is IRREVERSIBLE!!!
05-12-2004
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Rep Power: 0 Had my Koni's and Ground Controls on since November 2002, I went with that combination specifically because the aluminum adapter ring that come with the Ground Controls to mount on the Koni rear struts, was designed to fit over and around the circlip mentioned above.
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