sffree

First, are there front sway bars for our cars (02 coupe)? or is it just a bushing replacement?? Second, are there any advantages to upgrading the rear sway bar aside from better cornering? Any straight line improvements? Lastly, what's the best mod for increasing straight line/overall stiffness?

I have an 02 coupe on 55-16s, eibach pro kit, koni yellows, spc camber all round, nspd front bar, lower x brace, and rear lower brace... Yet, on highway driving, there STILL seems to be a little too much play in the steering.. I've had it checked ALL OVER by Honda and aftermarket mechanics and all say the car is FINE... any suggestions, or just tell me that it's normal.. please!

Thanks for any suggestions...

Zzyzx

What do you mean overall stiffness?

For better straight line stability have your alignment set with a little bit of Toe in on the front and rear.


Hondas have allways had a little play in the steering feel, its long been a complaint from the racers, as there seems to be a Dead zone in the middle of the steering .

Civryder02

u can get the JDM ITR/RSX sway bars .. they make a big difference from what i hear and they're not that expensive too !

Zzyzx

^^ just because some thing is JDM doesnt mean its the best part. and adding a 22mm rear bar (JDM ITR) may be way too much for what he needs.

sffree

Zzyzx.. when I say stiffness I mean that feeling where even though you have power steering, you still get that firmness in the steering wheel that translates into overall firmness of the car. I've changed the car so much since I got it, I forgot what it felt like originally.. but it just doesn't seem right yet.. sorry I know it doesn't help much--it's hard to explain in writing when it's a feeling...

robbclark1

iTrader: (8)

Sway bars don't do anything to stiffen the feeling of the steering wheel. All they do is control body roll. Changing the front bushings, getting it aligned to either 0 toe or toe out, and probably changing the PS fluid will help with the "loose" steering wheel. If not, take out your PS.

MrWong

iTrader: (4)

I have the same play you are talking about, it usually happens when the steering wheel is at dead centre right? and your travelling in a straight line ?

Zzyzx

Sounds like you need to up the valving on your konis, what do you have them set at?

and Robbclarks right, anit-roll bars arnt going to make the car feel better, I'd be looking to replace the suspension bushings next. the Front lower control arm bushings get pretty beat up when the car is lowered, even just a little bit.

also, what wheels/tires are you using? some of that play may be from tire side wall flex.

Zzyzx

Yup, thats the Honda Dead zone.... as far as I know Hondas have allways had that.

sffree

great... so much good advice.. thanks! Hmm where to begin...

Robbclark1: So what is involved with changing the front bushings? Are we talking Energy poly uro type bushings? if so is there gonna be noises involved? I'd rather keep the loose feel than hear squeaking all the time.. As far as the alignment.. I recently had it done when I installed an spc camber kit.. I had them tune intentionally for max grip but not too much as to cause excessive tire wear. And how would I adjust the PS fluid? do you mean change the type of fluid all together or just change the levels?

Mr.Wong: That's exactly it.. manuevering the streets is great.. it's that straight line highway cruising that gets me worried...

Zzyzx: could be the konis.. I used to have them at 1 full turn from full soft evenly in front and rear.. but I turned it down to 1/2 turn from full soft all round cuz I was getting a lot of hop.. Which bushings exactly would I be lookin to replace? just the front lower control arms? or are there other locations? aand what that mean polyurethane bushings? or just replacing the oe rubber ones? And it could be the tires.. they're yokohoma 205-55r-16s.. they're kinda crappy I think...

I really really appreciate the help.. it's a tough issue cuz It's something ya gotta feel rather than read about..

Zzyzx

I did my front lower control arm bushings about a year ago, and no squeaks yet....


The front Horizontal bushing takes a beating from lowering.. *Thats the top right one in the first picture.

robbclark1

iTrader: (8)

well I can tell you that with my alignment, the faster I am going the more I feel the steering control. I can touch it and it will go. I have -1.75 camber front, -.75 camber rear and 0 toe all around. I think Usafstud changed his PS fuild to redline.

Zzyzx

I just realized, do you have the exact specs of your alignment? You said you got a Sport alignment for handling and the shop may have dialed in a little toe out on the front (For better turn in) and that would affect your straight line stability.

sffree

ok...

so.. over correcting neg camber caused by lowering would lose me my straight line grip?

Zzyzx

no, its more like if they set your alignment to have a little toe out on the front the car will want to wander when going it a straight line. Extra camber wont do much for straight line stuff, except excessive negitive camber can affect your acceleration and braking.

sffree

hmm I'm not exactly sure then what the aligners did when I asked them to tune it for more street 'hug'.. I thought it would simply be intentionally tuning in or tuning out (as the case may be) more neg camber/or pos. camber.. I don't know if they messed with the toe.. But if I adjust to have a bit more toe in on the front and rear equally.. will this improve the 'sturdiness' of straight line handling??

also.. to recap.. is the 'dead zone' issue the reason I only have to use one finger to grip the wheel?? Anymore strength and it feels like I'm gonna rip the steering wheel off.. that's how loose it feels (with a little exaggeration of course)

And what about the bushings? that seems like a big expense and a lot of work to get into the lower control arm(s) considering I'm not a DIY person.

Finally, what about 'unsprung weight'? I am lowered on eibach pro kit with konis and riding on 205-55-16s... Used to have 50s with an annoyingly noticeable wheel well gap (despite the pro kit).. so I upped it 55s and now the look is great.. but there is less room for the wheel to rebound in... I never hear or feel it bang in the fender well.. but I thought I'd throw this into the mix to hear your guys' comments..

Thanks again for the continued replies..peace

Zzyzx

I can ramble on about alignments and possibilities all night but luckly sone one else allready wrote something that explains all the adjustments and what they do...

Here it is


about the dead zone, it is possible. you should have a firm grip, but not a strangle hold on the steering wheel. You want to beable to feel what the car is doing through the steering wheel.


I wouldnt worry much about Unspring weight, unless you have drasticly increased the weight of your wheels and tires then you probably wouldnt see much difference in performance.

sffree

ok.. that was pretty interesting..but so if toe in improves straight line and decreases wandering.. will it also improve that 'looseness' issue in the steering wheel? I mean to me they're one in the same.. but I'm realizing that's not the case.

what about increasing firmness of the konis? or the lower control arm bushings? How exactly do they affect these issues?

robbclark1

iTrader: (8)

the bushings will allow quicker more precise movement. Rubber bushings are soft and allow a lot of play, so if you change to poly, they will be harder. Our control arm is a little different then on past hondas, but it should help a little. Messing with the konis won't do much.

I have driven on a lot of toe out and a lot of toe in. Toe out floats. You can't feel where you are going to go next. Toe in takes a little harder to turn. so a 360 degree turn will take you longer and more wide to take.

If you really want to get rid of it, I suggest the bushings and getting a better alignment (0 toe or 1/16th toe in).

HoldDaMayo

have you ever tried different Tires? Like what about 40 series tires? Wouldn't that make a difference in overall responsiveness?

sffree

I had 50's and it felt like I was really feeling more of the road (not a good feel)...I thought the solution would be getting more tire to dampen the bumps... so I have 55s now.. I'm not sure I'm ready for 40s.. seems too thin to me...besides I don't get too much wheel gap closure with my pro kit... But I think robbclark1 may have it.. It's not a responsiveness thing. It's bout feeling more resistance in the wheel which I think offers better straight line stability at high speeds..I'm gonna get the toe checked.. thanks again

sffree

robbclark1 : Is it hard to regularly lube the front lower control arm bushings because it's in such a hard to reach place as opposed to a sway bar bushing or something like that. with poly's tendancy to squeak..I want to make sure investing in control arm bushing replacements 'll be worth it... thanks

sffree

Zzyzx.. what brand bushings were those in the picture? I've been looking into Energy Suspension.. are they any good?

Zzyzx

Those are Energy suspension Bushings. they have been good so far, one year and no squeaking.

botlbobjr

Sorry to jump in but how much roughly do those cost and how often do you oil and what type of lube.

robbclark1

iTrader: (8)

I paid $90 for both front and rear control arm bushings and front and rear sway bar bushings. They come with grease but any silicone grease will work. The fronts you will need to pay to have pressed out.

blackdc5

Zzyzx: Were the vertically mounted bushings torn or anythign when you replaced them?

Also, is neg. 2.0 degrees excessive up front? I've heard of people running much more neg. camber, but usually for autox where there isn't a wide range of speeds (thus variations in amounts of braking/acceleration).

Zzyzx

These are the new bushings, BUt the stock one, (closest to the bottom) was Very torn up.

blackdc5

How low was your ride height before you replaced the bushings? And how low are you now? There's nothing to worry about with the other bushing right?

Zzyzx

I have the Eibach Pro Kit, so the car is only droped about an inch. Ran that way for 2 years, with 1 year of autocross.