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So, I just finished putting my engine back together this evening after replacing the head gasket (and all the other gaskets as well) and belts (with timing belt), and I went to start the dude up. Well, I've got some trouble that I've never experienced and have not found in forums.

Here's the issues:
--After plugging the battery back up, I heard a repetitive clicking sound that sounded like it was coming from the glove box area.


--Also after hooking the battery back up, the CEL and oil light are constant on EVEN WITHOUT THE KEY IN!

--She'll turn over trying to start (everything sounds good and quick) but it won't start.

I'm pretty sure everything is where it should be and the head gasket is good. I triple checked the timing marks and am fairly sure I didn't miss an electrical connection.

Could this be a ground, fuel, spark, or compression issue? Thanks for any help y'all can give.

 
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Um..... Do these grounds look familiar?

 
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Hmmm... I think I've got the one on the right. I'll have to check for the left one. Could something as small as that cause a no start?

 
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Those 2 small wires on the eyelet are the main grounds for the computer and a lot of other stuff. Yes it can kill it.

Clean and shiny, top and bottom, and the casting they attach to, and the bolts.

 
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Okay. Thanks, ezone. I'll check those and get back to you. It'd be sweet if my issue was that easy.

 
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Alright, es one, you are the MAN (or woman?)!! I had both in place but the one on the right was loose as a goose. No more clicking or funky lights. Trying to start it now. Seems like the fuel rail is not full yet or something. I'll update when she's started.

 
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I'm male, but have longer hair than most females LOL.
I'm not actually psychic, but I play one on TV.
Cam in correct time?
Cam sensor unplugged?
Got any codes?

These fire up within about 5 seconds even if the fuel rail is empty....if all is 'right'.

 
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She's running now. Just took a while and I had to give her a bunch of gas to finally start. Driven her around the lot for a few and no codes, clanks, noises... Got a little steam burning off from spilled fluids/degreaser but so far, all seems well. Thanks a load, ezone!

And I've just got to know, did you go take a picture this evening of those wites, or do you just have loads of random pictures laying around? :-) Either way, you rocked!

If all is well in a week or two, I'll share how I 'trued' up my head and block.

 
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I have taken pics at work for whatever reasons and save them.

*cringe*

I merely scrape away the black colored 'paint' from the original gasket with a razor blade.

If the head is warped it goes to a machine shop.
The block is not suspect unless the engine was hot enough to melt aluminum IMO.
The surface finish should be as smooth as glass. No ridges from machining, no sanding marks.

 
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Yeah, it SHOULD go to a machine shop. My method involved granite and sandpaper. So far, so good except for one thing that was there before:

When I'm going about 40 mph on a flattish road and in overdrive, the rpms fluctuate 100-200 around 1800 and 2000. No cel and speedo seems fine. It did this some before my latest repair. If I down shift to 3rd (it's an automatic), it will not fluctuate. Any suggestions?

Also, how can I give you rep or kudos or whatever for your awesome help!?

 
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Also, here's the head after I got done 'truing' it up.

 
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And the block after refinishing minus the new arp studs I put in.

 
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These heads with MLS gaskets require near a mirror like finish to properly seal.. you have done alot of work to save a few bucks on one of the most important steps.

FYI..

"Surface finish is also very important too. For many years, most aftermarket gasket manufacturers said a surface finish of 55 to 110 micro-inches RA (roughness average), or 60 to 125 RMS (root mean square) is acceptable for conventional gaskets. The preferred range has traditionally been 80 to 100 RA. More recently, though, some gasket manufacturers have changed their recommendations because today's engines are lighter, and castings are thinner and less rigid. The latest recommendations for non-asbestos and graphite gaskets is a surface finish of 30 to 110 RA for cast iron head and block combinations, with a preferred range of 60 to 100 RA and 30 to 60 RA for aluminum heads on cast iron blocks with a preferred range of 50 to 60 RA. For MLS gaskets, a surface finish of 30 RA or smoother is usually required. "

from http://www.rlengines.com/Web_Pages/C...L_Engines.html

 
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I figured as much, that's why I said
Everything that Redneck_cdn posted is accurate.
If the head measured flat, it should have been left alone. The OE MLS gasket is very unforgiving about even minor surface imperfections.
Aftermarket gasket may be less finicky.



Repeatedly cycles like that in maybe 5-10 second intervals? I think this sounds like maybe the TCC doing the stick/slip thing.
No suggestions, but try changing the trans fluid first.
Find this icon at the bottom of the user ID and info (left) pane. Thanks!
(Try clicking ^that icon^ and see if the rep box pops up. IDK if it linked.)

 
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HAHAHA you WERE looking a little low on rep lately!

 
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Hi, my name is ezone and I'm addicted to rep.

 
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I appreciate the comments, ezone and redneck. I am glad you guys brought up surface roughness and flatness. This is kind of my extra vehicle so, I thought it'd be okay to experiment a little. Last time I did my HG, I scraped old gasket off with screw drivers and used loads of gasket sealer thinking that that would do the trick... I was much dumber about engines then. ( :

I read up on Ra (Roughness Average) a bunch before I started the job on my civic just to figure out if I could actually do this with good results. First, I'll say that the Fel-Pro gasket came with a suggestion of 60 Ra (I think) in the paperwork.

So, what is Roughness average? (from Harrison Electropolishing site)
Ra is the average of a set of individual measurements of a surfaces peaks and valleys. Simply put, Ra is the average of a set of individual measurements of a surfaces peaks and valleys

A company that makes optic and mechanical sensors called Nanovea did some measuring of 3M sandpaper samples with their optical sensors and found that, of course, the higher the number on the paper, the lower the Ra was. Well, according to their work, 220 grit paper gave an average of 14.26 which is the average between the peaks and valleys of the paper.

For this job, I took the granite slab (who's Ra is VERY low) and taped 220(Ra~14.26) to it to get out old marks (last time I did the job, I scratched it with a razor blade some) and some black stuff. Then I strapped on some 320 to finish it up. If 220 has an Ra of about 14.26, I think the 320 should be plenty fine even with an OEM (non fel-pro) gasket.

As for flatness (and this is my only worry really), I realize that the head and block must be around ~.002" or better in any direction. I didn't use a straight edge before or after and didn't use one on the granite either. I guess I'll just wait for it to leak in a certain area and then I'll know if it's no bueno or not.

Next time, I'll be sure to lap some granite slabs together to flatten them before I do the work. The slabs will also be a better fit than what I used.

 
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So, while that was a pretty risky move on my part, I should know if the HG took pretty soon, right? Should I just drive it hard and see if she blows as well as check for milky oil and all?

 
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Oh, and I found the icon, ezone. Thanks! Still kind of new to this forum (or any other forum).

 
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Quote from Honda tech assistance was "glass smooth". They couldn't or wouldn't tell me an actual RA spec on the finish. I've read elsewhere that the finish is ( 20RA comes to mind) or less from the factory.

I've read that Felpro claims to use an additional coating on their gasket that's supposed to "fill in" minor imperfections in the surfaces. More forgiving.



I've had a local machine shop butcher a couple of the heads on these cars. They left the head surface looking like what I'd expect a composite head gasket to be happy with.
Boss didn't believe me when I said it isn't good enough, told me to put it on anyway.
I pressure tested it as soon as it was together enough to test. It leaked from the combustion chambers into the cooling system.
Had to take it all apart again.
Boss said, "....." (Nevermind, it isn't important here.)
I ended up using spray Hi-Tack on the head gasket as a sealant, it seemed to work.





Maybe you can straightedge your granite slab now anyway, just to see if your tooling is straight?

EDIT: These don't blow head gaskets the way other makes do. These normally only leak combustion pressure into the cooling system, slowly. They don't normally mix fluids or turn the oil milky.

 
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Good to know how they blow. I didn't know there were 'silent' killers! ( : So, I guess I could just do a compression test and see how close they are to each other, huh? If that comes out well, am I safe to assume that my HG is good to go?

I've looked around some and found that compression should measure at least 135psi and not have more than 28psi difference between them. Would you expect a higher number on an '03?

Also, I've read that some folks remove all plugs to do this and some do one at a time while unplugging fuse for fuel pump or something. Do you have a preferred method for this?

And lastly, ezone, do you work as a full time mechanic on Hondas or something? You seem to be a Honda Wizard or something. I'll be checking my TCC solenoid this weekend.

 
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No. Compression test will never reveal a clue about the usual head gasket problem on these. The usual leakage problem is far too small to be detected on a compression test.



135 would be a big problem.

I expect minimum 180 PSI using my equipment and method. Some will give over 200 PSI.
10% max variation is the industry standard.

All plugs out.
Throttle wide open.
Battery charger on if it even sounds remotely iffy.
Watch the gauge, keep cranking until the gauge quits climbing. Then keep on cranking a few more hits just to make sure.
Note how much each "hit" raises the gauge throughout the process. I've been able to spot suspected valve sealing issues this way.


If I told you, I'd have to kill you.

 
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Hopefully I'll do this 'quote' thing correctly.

So, is there a way to check for a leak like that that doesn't come up on a compression test? I think I'll test anyway just to see what I'm pulling. If it doesn't show up on a compression test, it sounds like a failing HG is not all that bad?


VERY good to know. Thanks!

Alright. Thanks for the tip. I've got a pretty new Optima (yellow) that seems to crank real well.


Hahaha...... Crazy long-haired hippie!

 
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I apply shop airline pressure (~170 PSI) directly into each cylinder and watch for the coolant level to change. This is THE ONLY reliable test I have found for this particular failure on this engine.

If a head gasket is bad, it's bad. If you ignore it -- it doesn't heal itself.
These usually displace liquid out of the radiator when the head gasket leaks, and once they push enough liquid out it runs hot and overheats. Or you lose heater output because of the lost coolant.

In the beginning this happens very slowly.
Many people first notice the overflow bottle puked out on a long highway trip.

 
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Would the Felpro gasket be a better choice than the OEM head gasket?

Hi-Tack is a sealer? Any idea if the vehicle had more head gasket problems later on?

If (when) I end up doing a HG on my D17A1, I should gently remove old HG residue from the block with razor blades and that is all? I would plan on taking my head to a reputable machine shop to ensure it is true and have it overhauled.

This would be a great time to do piston rings? But you don't recommend cylinder honing?

 
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Thanks, ezone. I'm hoping for a compressor for Christmas so, I'll test that out then!

And really, thanks for all the help. That ground wire tip really saved me a headache!!! Wish I could give you more rep or beer or something! ( :

 
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I used the Felpro because it came with the gasket kit. I think I'd choose it again. It does have a really thin coating that is blue and I will try to attach a picture of it. There is nothing wrong with OEM and some will argue in favor of it. To my knowledge, there's really not a big difference. I believe they even have a thin coating that is black on them.

I used one razor blade for the block AND head as well as water passage area, intake, and exhaust. I had used a bunch of rtv sealant last time (which was not a good idea!) that had to be scrapped off. And, yes, it is recommended to take the head to a shop and have them level it (if needed) and clean it well. When you clean the surfaces, just try not to scratch any machined surfaces. When using the razor, keep the angle nice and low and you'll be fine.

To my knowledge, cylinders should be honed when doing rings. BUT--- If it doesn't NEED rings, I wouldn't go down that road. How many miles have you got? This is the main reason (to my understanding) for a compression test. It's to see if the rings are worn to a point where they need replacing. If they don't, I don't think most folks do it just because as it is even more involved than a HG job.

 
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I can't answer that, I've never used theirs.
Yes.



Goes on just like spray paint LOL.

Not that I'm aware of.

I personally prefer to use single edge razor blades and brake clean.

Correct. Honda has us stuffing new rings in high mileage engines without doing anything to the bores, that's good enough for me.
(When I worked with Mazda, they had us do it too. Replace pistons, and reuse the rings.)


The reality is in the crosshatch. If there is enough wear on the cylinder walls to eat through and make the crosshatch pattern disappear, it's worn enough to require boring to the next oversize.

If the crosshatch is still visible, the rings will seat just fine.




The crosshatch pattern angle has everything to do with oil control and oil consumption.
A dingleberry hone has no way to keep the cylinder round, nor control the angle or depth of the crosshatch pattern.

 
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True, but it's much thinner than the Felpro coating. Less forgiving.


No. The purpose of a compression test is to test the sealing ability of all the parts, not just the rings. How do you think we discover burned valve problems? It starts with a compression test.
The head gasket leaks on these are usually so minute, it does not cause a drop in compression test results.

If it needs rings, the time to do it is while the head is off.

Most refuse to believe they have a ring problem, just like most refuse to believe they have a head gasket problem on these engines. Most think a valve job and seals will cure all the oil consumption problems, and it doesn't.

If the engine consumes oil, it needs rings done. Hell, it may not really need rings, they may still have very little wear. The oil control rings will be stuck in their grooves.

(High mileage and low quality air filtration engines may wear out the rings.)

NOTE: This particular ring problem cannot be found with a compression test. The oil rings could be completely missing and the compression test results will still look great.

 
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Thanks for the corrections, ezone. I'm not really qualified to give many answers but figured I'd give it a shot. :-) I'll try to reserve my uneducated guesses in the future. In the mean time, I've been looking at leak down testers and air compressors.

I guess next time I have my head off, I'll replace those rings.