Rep Power: 155

******* a quick recap to save you some time. My car died on the road, just lost power and wouldn't start back up. The car would crank but wouldn't run. I thought maybe the fuel pump died while I was driving. Come to find out the timing had jumped and the computer was shutting the car down when it was trying to start. My car had been burning oil about a quart every 500 miles or so, so I decided to replace the piston rings while I had the head off. Put the car back together and it fired up, now I'm burning fluids somewhere and trying to figure out that problem. *******

I have an 02 Civic with 225,000 miles. It died today on my way to work and wouldn't start back up. I was cruising about 80mph when I felt it go. The car started slowing down even with the pedal to the floor. I downshifted and the engine revved up from the down shift but still wouldn't go anywhere. It felt the same way when the vtec doesn't engage and the car doesn't rev over 3700RPMs. You hit that wall and car the dies back down.


It would crank back up but then die immediately about 2 seconds later. My buddy stopped to get me to take me to work and we suspected it was possibly the fuel pump. I got it towed back to the house and messed around with it after work. The fuel pump hums when I turn the car on and I disconnected the fuel line and stuck it in a water bottle to confirm it was pushing out gas. It seems to pump when you turn the car on and when cranking but the car doesn't catch.

The car turns over when cranking but I can hold the pedal to the floor and it still dies. I tried to pull codes but there's none in the PCM. I think the fuel pump is functional from my testing. Plus I saw a thread where Ezone said he's only replaced a few ... ever ... so I believe in his trust in Honda fuel pumps.

After I took the video I tried cranking a few more times and then it backfired pretty rough. I'm assuming the back fire is from the gas not being burnt off in the cylinders however I did read the not running issue could be from bad timing if the timing belt slipped. But would it still want to startup like that if the timing was off?

The other possibility would be the spark plugs aren't firing but I don't know how all 4 ignition coils would fail simultaneously.

 
Rep Power: 243

If the timing slipped it would still try to start but would be very rough or unable to stay running. It doesn't take much to throw it off.

That's odd it has no codes. Maybe pull valve cover and check timing belt and timing marks.

If it was misfiring from a bad coil or plug I would suspect the CEL to blink and like you said all 4 don't fail at the same time.

 
Rep Power: 518

Runs for ONLY 2 seconds then the PCM shuts it down.....

Is the green key is flashing like mad the entire time?

If not, then pull the upper timing cover and check if the timing belt jumped a couple teeth or the tensioner spring broke. That can cause the PCM to shut it down with no codes and no other clues because the cam-crank sync is too far out of phase.

 
Rep Power: 155

No I don't see the green key flashing.



I did have my code scanner when it broke down. The CEL was already on for P1259 from the day before which isn't too uncommon as it burns oil like crazy. I had topped off the engine oil the night before and typically the light turns off on it's own the next day or two.



There was a P0131 code which looked like it was an oxygen sensor not reading properly which seems like it would make sense if there isn't proper exhaust going coming out of the engine.



I disconnected the battery as per the instructions to drain the fuel pressure and when I reconnected everything and tried to crank it, it didn't throw any more CEL codes.



I'll take a look at it over the weekend and see what the timing looks like.

 
Rep Power: 155

Took the valve cover off to get the top timing cover off. Plugs look trashed but I wouldn't think that would be enough to kill the engine. Plus I should have some misfire codes if that was the case.








I did pop the valve cover loose to get the upper timing off. The timing belt looks fine, I don't see any signs of wear or damage. I would expect to see some teeth stripped off the belt if it skipped a tooth.

I can rotate the engine by hand and it moves pretty smooth and easy without wanting to bind up. So I think the timing is still good but I haven't taken the bottom part loose yet to verify. I think I have to take the giant crank pulley off to see the timing marks and take off the bottom timing cover right?

I did notice the bottom pulley sensor had a good amount of oil on it. I wonder if some oil seeped down to the wires and shorted it out while it was driving. I'm not sure where the oil is coming from, I cleaned the PCV valve a few ago and it's kind of right under that area, but the hoses still look like they're attached properly.

Going to get a fuel pressure tester and a plug test so I can verify it's getting enough gas and spark. I was hoping to find something more obvious but still scratching my head.

 
Rep Power: 518

Wrong assumption. That assumption tells me you aren't intimately familiar with this particular engine design.

Don't bother assuming anything based on what you know about some other engines.
This one can jump with zero evidence on the belt.



You MUST verify timing marks on both crank and cam are correctly aligned. See any service manual.



Plugs look sooty, not trashed. Low compression? Rich? Pulled them out after only a cold start, no run time?



Cam timing incorrect?

Yea. Not much of a clue yet other than one looks just a little worse than the rest.

Absolutely irrelevant. See above.



NO! 0* mark is on the big pulley. Use it.

You mean the CKP sensor.



If you REALLY want to find out where a leak came from.....clean it all off spotless and start fresh. V/C gasket? Spillage? Cam or front crank seals, or oil pump reseal?


I learned long ago to not disturb the CKP sensor at all during any service, because it can let liquid enter the connector and cause huge problems.
Wait, it buns oil faster than it leaks out? Bad deal.



Needs an O2 sensor. No....fix the other problems first. Then see if the code comes back.



Yea that usually comes on when there's only about 0.5-1 quart of oil left in the engine. That ain't a good thing at all. You letting the oil get that low in the first place means there has been an ongoing serious neglect problem.



You can have fuel pressure but you would still have to verify the injectors are getting signals (power on one side, and a pulse from the computer on the other) and fuel is actually passing through the injectors.


OBVIOUS stuff first: 2 second shutdown with no codes, it's most likely jumped time.

 
Rep Power: 155

Damn you!! Is there a way to check the timing marks on the crank pulley without removing the engine mount? I couldn't figure out how so I just pulled the mounting bracket out.


When the cam shaft is at 12 o'clock the crankshaft looks off.



Cam shaft timing marks:







Crank shaft timing marks:




The Haynes manual says there's a white and red mark on the crank pulley however I just see the 3 cuts in it and then a little further is another cut. I think the set of 3 is suppose to be the red mark and the one off by itself is suppose to be the white mark. So the blue arrow and red arrow should be pointing directly at each other.









Still haven't found out what has caused the issue so I'll have to break it down some more and see what's up.

 
Rep Power: 518

If the cam is truly on its mark, it's out of time.


Your crank pulley single mark is tdc, blue arrow in last pic

 
Rep Power: 118

 
Rep Power: 518

Oh yeah I forgot this one
Eyeballs and flashlight. I've never needed to remove a mount to find it.

 
Rep Power: 155

Took the crankshaft pulley off and you can tell the timing is off where the crankshaft is currently sitting.






Something must of popped up and hit the timing cover or either something hit it from inside. You can see where the pulley was rubbing on the cover.






Nothing looks obvious as to what's broken or caused it to skip a tooth. Does the tension pulley normally spin pretty freely? If I try to spin it seems to stop pretty quick. The water pump will free spin longer than the pulley. I wonder if the bearing in it seized up or something. The spring was still pretty strong too so not sure what happened.

 
Rep Power: 243

Yea it is definitely out of time.

I don't remember how freely a new one spins. Is that the original or was it replaced at 100k?

 
Rep Power: 518

Cover rubbed because of 2 broken hold down bolt tabs broken off. That is pretty much normal lol
If the bolts and tabs are not still bolted to the engine then it was already broke the last time it was taken apart and someone just left them off since they weren't doing anything.


I reinstall the broken covers too.



Tensioner spin.....oil seal drag.


If nothing else looks unusual in the timing belt area as a possible cause then I would bolt on a new tensioner pulley kit FROM HONDA --NOT AFTERMARKET, an fresh t belt, and run it.

Does aftermarket supply covers?

 
Rep Power: 155

I bought the car about 5 years ago and it had 140K on it. I didn't have a service record for it so I went ahead and replaced the timing belt, tensioner, and water pump. The car has 225K on it now so it's due for a new belt now but was expecting something more obvious to be broken in there.




I think I had ordered a new lower cover because some of the tabs were broken on it when I previously did the timing belt but I can't remember if it was the top or bottom cover.


What are you trying to say here???



I think I had purchased a kit from rock auto that a new belt, tensioner, and water pump. I don't think it was from Honda but I don't remember. Pretty sure it was a rock auto special though.



My other problem is the car burns oil like crazy, a quart every 600 miles or so. So since I haven it broken down this much I might as well take the head and oil pan off and replace the piston rings. I took the head off a while back to fix a misfire issue and low compression on cylinder 2. If I had that experience before hand then I probably would of done it then but unfortunately that's not how experience works.



I've been trying to look for some advice in the forum but whenever it comes up the person just slapped new rings in it and ran it. So I have a few questions. Obviously I need new rings. Rockauto has a re-ring kit that has rings, bearings, and thrust washers. I didn't know there was such a thing as thrust washers.



What's the logic for the bearings? If it's not broke then don't fix it or since I'm all the way in there it's best to go ahead and replace it since an inexpensive part?



Also what's up with the standard and undersize rings and bearings? I'm assuming you would need undersize stuff to compensate for wear but it seems like you would want oversized instead of undersized. I've read that you can take the piston apart and then use plastigauge to determine if the bearings are in spec.



Also I'm assuming you would normally reuse the piston rod bolts since they don't offer new ones in the re-ring kit?


Thanks for the knowledge and education!

 
Rep Power: 118

 
Rep Power: 243

I think he is saying that some drag is normal because of the oil seal so it won't necessarily spin freely.

 
Rep Power: 518

That's my line LOL.

The original machining (crosshatch hone pattern) in the cylinder walls tells the entire story of any possible wear.

On a rering job under tsb the instructions say do NOT hone. Inspect and all that though. Vertical lines found in the cylinder walls are typical but if a scratch is so deep you can catch a fingernail in it that's too much (and gives you new decisions to make).
Pretty much this. If it came in running and it wasn't knocking, it will leave in the same condition. Of course inspect and decide once you see what yours look like.
Standard all the way.

You don't ever deal with over/under until something has to be machined, and at that point it's best to let the machinist pick the parts that will match whatever work they did to it.

If your engine were that badly worn, adding the expense of machining block/crank may not make any sense when these engines are so cheap used. Buy low mile used and drop it in LOL

Factory bearings were 'select fit' so they could dial in some pretty tight oil clearances. After a zillion miles that system may not work so well.

What does your service manual say?

Reuse head bolts and reuse rod bolts unless there's a problem.

 
Rep Power: 155

Just wanted to post some pictures and share some knowledge.



Removed the head today and dropped the oil pain. The pan was pretty much glued to the block but there's 4 little tabs around the corners of it so you can get some leverage and pry/pop it loose. This is what it looks like underneath there.






Once I had the oil pan off I rotated the crank shaft around so that I could get to the nuts holding the bottom connecting rod together. I loosened one nut and then rotated the crankshaft so I could get to the other nut.









Once I had the nuts off I was able to wiggle the bottom half of the connected rod off. I rotated the crank shaft so the piston was at the top of the cylinder and stuck a small piece of scrap wood up to the connecting rod and tapped it up with the palm of my hand. Once the piston was up far enough I was able to just pull it right out.






I'm assuming the oil rings should stick out like the compression rings do? They all seemed pretty flush with the piston which would explain why it was burning so much oil.






Other than that everything seemed look pretty clean and smooth. So hopefully I can put some new rings in it and put it back together and run it for another 100K without an problems. I'm going to take the head to a machine shop and have them cut the valves in.



As I was taking stuff apart today I noticed there's an air hose that goes from the water housing to the left side of the throttle body. Is that just a sensor or is it some kind of vacuum for the cooling system? I didn't pay any attention to it when I replaced the head gasket a while back.

 
Rep Power: 518

pics?

 
Rep Power: 518

Not nearly as much as the upper rings stick out.

But they shouldn't be stuck in the groove, and the gaps in all the rings should not be anywhere close to being lined up.

 
Rep Power: 155

Just some more progress pics. I found a youtube video where a guy filled a bucket of water and sprayed carb cleaner in it and let his pistons soak to get the carbon off. So I got some hot hot water out of the tub, sprayed a bunch of carb cleaner in it, and let them soak for about 45-60 minutes. I did it twice and it got most of the carbon off. Then the next day I took a broken ring to scrape out the ring slots and all the carbon just broke right off into little piles of dust. I did get a ring groove cleaner too which I thought was a good idea. I wouldn't recommend it or at least not the one I got. I realized after I spun around the piston about 3 times it was starting to mark up the face of the piston. Only one of the spurs would fit into the oil ring groove, the other grooves were to small so good thing it was only $10. Maybe a more expensive one would work better.

It's cool to see the oil holes in the piston and see how it all works together. I also geek out thinking about how some Japanese dude put this together on the other side of the world 15 years ago and now I'm taking it apart. I wonder if he was cussing when he put it together that some ******* american would be taking it apart years later. haha

 
Rep Power: 518

Poke the holes clean with a drill bit or something

 
Rep Power: 243

Those look great!! Nice cleaning job.

It is cool to think about someone on the other side of the world touched those pistons 15 years ago and the journey and amount of miles they have seen!

 
Rep Power: 518

The Germans keep saying "Stupid Americans" as they build their cars for export to US. I'm convinced they are still fighting the war.

I say this after getting all kinds of pizzed off trying to replace (what should be a simple) thermostat on a 07 VW EOS 2.0 turbo today.
Pipes held down with 12 point spline drive bolts instead of simple hex head? Seriously? Pffft.

 
Rep Power: 118

 
Rep Power: 155

Got the new piston rings installed and the pistons back in the block. The first piston wouldn't go at first but after I adjust the compression tool so that it sat flat on the block then the popped right in there. The rest when pretty smooth. I rotated the crank so it was top dead center and the drizzled some assembly lube on it from the top of the block. Then I rotated the crank to bottom dead center and did the same. Then dipped the piston in oil and put in the ring compressor tool (which is a pain in the *** to work when you're hands are covered in oil) and then it slipped right in.



I started taking the head apart. Everything looked pretty gummed up in the chamber. Taking it to the machine shop tomorrow to get cleaned up and get the valve seats re-cut in. The exhaust valves look like mini rock candy sticks!! They are pretty terrible looking!





I've got two stud bolts that are stuck in the head and 3 valves that are stuck. When I use the valve spring compression tool the top of the valve stays stuck in the spring so I can't get the keepers out. It looks like there's a different style of compressor that holds the valve as you compress the spring; this way it would force the spring down onto the valve stem. Hopefully the machine sop guys can free it up for me. Is there to getting the valve stem seals free? I tried gently prying them up but they didn't budge.

 
Rep Power: 518

Have the machine shop install a fresh set

 
Rep Power: 155

Yeah I went that route. Got the car back together this weekend, primed it a few times, then cranked it up and it started running!! Pretty miraculous!!!

However now I have a surging idle issue. It'll crank fine and idle but when I drive and come to a stop it revs from 1-2.2K RPMS. It's also giving me a P1505 and P505 CEL. From looking at the forum I think the TPS sensor is the culprit which looks like I need a whole new throttle body to replace it because it's riveted to the TB. Ebay has a few options from $50-$100 but it makes me wonder what the chances are they have a similar issue.

Another problem I have is a lot of blue smoke coming out the tailpipe. I've driven the car about 8-10 miles today. I figured some some should reasonable for a rebuilt engine but I'm not sure. I had an aftermarket header on it before and went back to a stock one so it was smoking pretty good on the first start until everything burned off it. So I was thinking it might just be stuff inside the header burning off. 9After looking a few various forums it seems to be a question that's asked a lot but seems like it's normal for a few 100 miles until the new piston rings seat. Ezone I'm interested to know what your experience with this.

I didn't hone the cylinders but one Miata forum was saying that could be the cause of the issue for a guy with a similar issue on his rebuilt Miata. In other forums people are saying it's normal it's not excessive but hard to say what's the definition of "excessive." It was burning oil pretty bad before the rebuild but I never saw any smoke out of the tail pipe. So I'm a little paranoid I screwed something up and have to rip the engine back apart to fix something.

 
Rep Power: 518

No, when I do ring jobs on K engines and V6 engines the smoke is gone in just a couple minutes after startup.
I try to avoid dumping a bunch of excess oil around, I just dip the piston heads in oil immediately before installing them in the block.
All have cats on them and I really don't ever notice smoke other than what's cooking off the engine compartment after the test drive (there's always spillage during teardown). They may run in the shop for 30 min or an hour while I'm doing stuff, but I MIGHT only put 5 road miles on one before calling it done.

Yes it can take a bit for fresh rings to seat in.
But think about:

Were the original machining (hone) crosshatch marks still fully visible and intact on all the cylinder walls? No worn off areas? No huge vertical gouges in the walls?

Aftermarket rings---did you check end gaps prior to assembling on the pistons? (if they were sent for a smaller bore, end gaps would be huge in this engine)

Did you pay close attention to correct ring orientation? Neither top ring installed in the wrong groove, nor installed upside down?

All 5 ring end gaps were staggered 90/180 degrees around the piston per the manual? If any ring gaps are close to lined up it can contributes to oil consumption


Stem seals correctly installed? (according to the Honda catalog, intake stem seals are different from exhausts )

P0505/1505
Check for Vacuum leaks first. Hoses left off, bolts not tight, etc.
Stuck IAC valve?
If the TPS was not a problem before, it shouldn't be a problem now. If you think it's a tps problem get a scanner or voltmeter and prove it before effing with it.
BTW those are not rivets on the TPS, they are screws that had breakaway heads. You can unscrew them with a chisel or punch and hammer and some finesse, just like the steering column lock bolts.

 
Rep Power: 155

I may have buttered them up a bit then. I dipped the head of the piston in oil but I also oiled up the ring compressor tool so the piston would slide out easier.

Yes from what I could tell but maybe my assessment wasn't accurate. No big noticeable gouges or scoring.

Yeah I stuck the ring in the cylinder and then pushed it down into the cylinder with the top of the piston and then measured the space left over with my feeler guages. The hanes manual says it should be between .008 and .020 inches which it seemed to be. The .008 had a little wiggle room and the .020 wouldn't fit. I made sure the clock the rings so the ring gaps are rotated around the piston. I'm fairly certain I put all the rings in properly and in the right direction. The compression rings had a top side but the oil rings said that it didn't matter.

The machine shop put these so I didn't question it but probably should have. Are there distinguishing features between the two? When I took the head in it had different colored seals on the intake and exhaust. When I picked it up they were all the same color but the gasket kit they gave me said it was a 02 civic and all the other gaskets fit so I hadn't really questioned it.

The smoke production does seem to coincide with valve stem seals. When I take off from a stop I get a decent plume of smoke but not so much while driving down the road.


Nothing feels loose. I did notice when I was putting it back together I forgot to hook up the drain hose out the IAC. I was filing the radiator and all of a sudden I hear coolant running hitting the ground. I thought the head drain bolt was loose but then realized the hose had got pushed behind the air intake.

I'll be sure to remember that.