Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
12-29-2017
#1
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Age: 29
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 
Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
Hi folks,
I have an 01 Civic with the 1.7 non vtec that i can not seem to find why it won’t start. The previous owner had trouble with a long crank time until one day it wouldn’t start. Confident it was something small I bought the car but for the life of me can’t seem to figure out what’s preventing it from starting.
Here’s a list of everything I’ve done and checked.
Ive tried new Cam and Crank sensors and also put both sensors on my oscilloscope and their signals looked great. I’ve checked actual mechanical timing many times and it is spot on. The engine doesn’t sound bad when cranking but does occasionally backfire indicating it’s probably an ignition issue. Cylinder compression is 130, 130, 130, and 90. I know that is on the lower side but that’s after the cylinders have been washed out with fuel and it should still be enough to get it to run I imagine? I’ve changed the spark plugs and tried spraying carb cleaner down the intake to no avail. The plugs smell like fuel. I unhooked the upstream oxygen sensor in case the exhaust was clogged. I checked both cam and crank keys to make sure they are still where they should be. Spark looks healthy and strong. I’ve even replaced the engine computer because that was the last thing that made sense to do. Any input or experience with something like this would be appreciated! Thank you!
Here’s a list of everything I’ve done and checked.
Ive tried new Cam and Crank sensors and also put both sensors on my oscilloscope and their signals looked great. I’ve checked actual mechanical timing many times and it is spot on. The engine doesn’t sound bad when cranking but does occasionally backfire indicating it’s probably an ignition issue. Cylinder compression is 130, 130, 130, and 90. I know that is on the lower side but that’s after the cylinders have been washed out with fuel and it should still be enough to get it to run I imagine? I’ve changed the spark plugs and tried spraying carb cleaner down the intake to no avail. The plugs smell like fuel. I unhooked the upstream oxygen sensor in case the exhaust was clogged. I checked both cam and crank keys to make sure they are still where they should be. Spark looks healthy and strong. I’ve even replaced the engine computer because that was the last thing that made sense to do. Any input or experience with something like this would be appreciated! Thank you!
12-29-2017
#2
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
the cylinders have been washed out with fuel and it should still be enough to get it to run I imagine?
Oil the cylinders to restore ring seal and compression?
12-29-2017
#3
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Age: 29
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
12-29-2017
#4
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
Got a scanner? Got codes? Got live data display?
What's the ECT read---and is that a plausible reading? If it reads way too cold that can cause flooding
Does the green key symbol flash angrily while you are cranking it?
If it's flooded,..... mash the gas pedal to the floor while cranking so it doesn't inject even more fuel (deflood mode)...judicious use of deflood mode may be necessary throughout your ordeal. Sometimes you need it to not inject fuel, sometimes you want it to inject fuel.
If it's flooded and the plugs are wet, they need to be dried out.....cylinders need to be dried.....cylinder walls need oil to keep their rings sealing but any oil you dump in can wet the plugs too when you crank it over (same with excess fuel in the cylinders)---and wet plugs won't fire no matter if they are wet with oil or gas.
Sooty plugs can soak up fuel easily and not fire
try heating the plug tips with a small blowtorch then screw em in and crank it??
whiff the torch over the plug holes to burn off excess fuel in the cylinders? (very dangerous)
What's the ECT read---and is that a plausible reading? If it reads way too cold that can cause flooding
Does the green key symbol flash angrily while you are cranking it?
If it's flooded,..... mash the gas pedal to the floor while cranking so it doesn't inject even more fuel (deflood mode)...judicious use of deflood mode may be necessary throughout your ordeal. Sometimes you need it to not inject fuel, sometimes you want it to inject fuel.
If it's flooded and the plugs are wet, they need to be dried out.....cylinders need to be dried.....cylinder walls need oil to keep their rings sealing but any oil you dump in can wet the plugs too when you crank it over (same with excess fuel in the cylinders)---and wet plugs won't fire no matter if they are wet with oil or gas.
Sooty plugs can soak up fuel easily and not fire
try heating the plug tips with a small blowtorch then screw em in and crank it??
whiff the torch over the plug holes to burn off excess fuel in the cylinders? (very dangerous)
12-29-2017
#5
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Age: 29
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
Got a scanner? Got codes? Got live data display?
What's the ECT read---and is that a plausible reading? If it reads way too cold that can cause flooding
Does the green key symbol flash angrily while you are cranking it?
If it's flooded,..... mash the gas pedal to the floor while cranking so it doesn't inject even more fuel (deflood mode)...judicious use of deflood mode may be necessary throughout your ordeal. Sometimes you need it to not inject fuel, sometimes you want it to inject fuel.
If it's flooded and the plugs are wet, they need to be dried out.....cylinders need to be dried.....cylinder walls need oil to keep their rings sealing but any oil you dump in can wet the plugs too when you crank it over (same with excess fuel in the cylinders)---and wet plugs won't fire no matter if they are wet with oil or gas.
Sooty plugs can soak up fuel easily and not fire
try heating the plug tips with a small blowtorch then screw em in and crank it??
whiff the torch over the plug holes to burn off excess fuel in the cylinders? (very dangerous)
What's the ECT read---and is that a plausible reading? If it reads way too cold that can cause flooding
Does the green key symbol flash angrily while you are cranking it?
If it's flooded,..... mash the gas pedal to the floor while cranking so it doesn't inject even more fuel (deflood mode)...judicious use of deflood mode may be necessary throughout your ordeal. Sometimes you need it to not inject fuel, sometimes you want it to inject fuel.
If it's flooded and the plugs are wet, they need to be dried out.....cylinders need to be dried.....cylinder walls need oil to keep their rings sealing but any oil you dump in can wet the plugs too when you crank it over (same with excess fuel in the cylinders)---and wet plugs won't fire no matter if they are wet with oil or gas.
Sooty plugs can soak up fuel easily and not fire
try heating the plug tips with a small blowtorch then screw em in and crank it??
whiff the torch over the plug holes to burn off excess fuel in the cylinders? (very dangerous)
The key is not flashing and there are no trouble codes whatsoever. I have dried the plugs and tried to crank it to no avail. Maybe heating them could be the next try.
12-29-2017
#6
Registered!!
Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
A lot of the time we hear about this kind of issue it turns out the timing belt skipped a few teeth.
Have you actually pulled the air box completely off and sprayed some starting fluid right into the throttle body.
May e consider pulling the fuel pump relay and trying bit of oil and then starting fluid.
Possibly injectors so bad they just dripping gas instead of misting it.
Have you actually pulled the air box completely off and sprayed some starting fluid right into the throttle body.
May e consider pulling the fuel pump relay and trying bit of oil and then starting fluid.
Possibly injectors so bad they just dripping gas instead of misting it.
12-29-2017
#7
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Age: 29
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
A lot of the time we hear about this kind of issue it turns out the timing belt skipped a few teeth.
Have you actually pulled the air box completely off and sprayed some starting fluid right into the throttle body.
May e consider pulling the fuel pump relay and trying bit of oil and then starting fluid.
Possibly injectors so bad they just dripping gas instead of misting it.
Have you actually pulled the air box completely off and sprayed some starting fluid right into the throttle body.
May e consider pulling the fuel pump relay and trying bit of oil and then starting fluid.
Possibly injectors so bad they just dripping gas instead of misting it.
12-30-2017
#8
Registered!!
Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
Adding more raw gas is not the same as adding starting fluid....
Starting fluid ignites easier than gas, plus it vaporizes quicker especially in cold weather.
Based on what you have said, issue has gotten worse-over time. Plugs are reaking of gas, low compression, everything is working correctly and timing is correct. Sounds like fuel injectors have stopped vaporizing fuel due to be clogged up and now they basically just pissing fuel in.
To test for that, a shop would pull the injectors. At home you can test for that by unplugging the fuel pump and see if it will run for a few seconds on starting fluid.
Be sure to keep face away from throttle body while and after spraying it in as backfires are common.
Starting fluid ignites easier than gas, plus it vaporizes quicker especially in cold weather.
Based on what you have said, issue has gotten worse-over time. Plugs are reaking of gas, low compression, everything is working correctly and timing is correct. Sounds like fuel injectors have stopped vaporizing fuel due to be clogged up and now they basically just pissing fuel in.
To test for that, a shop would pull the injectors. At home you can test for that by unplugging the fuel pump and see if it will run for a few seconds on starting fluid.
Be sure to keep face away from throttle body while and after spraying it in as backfires are common.
12-30-2017
#9
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Age: 29
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
Adding more raw gas is not the same as adding starting fluid....
Starting fluid ignites easier than gas, plus it vaporizes quicker especially in cold weather.
Based on what you have said, issue has gotten worse-over time. Plugs are reaking of gas, low compression, everything is working correctly and timing is correct. Sounds like fuel injectors have stopped vaporizing fuel due to be clogged up and now they basically just pissing fuel in.
To test for that, a shop would pull the injectors. At home you can test for that by unplugging the fuel pump and see if it will run for a few seconds on starting fluid.
Be sure to keep face away from throttle body while and after spraying it in as backfires are common.
Starting fluid ignites easier than gas, plus it vaporizes quicker especially in cold weather.
Based on what you have said, issue has gotten worse-over time. Plugs are reaking of gas, low compression, everything is working correctly and timing is correct. Sounds like fuel injectors have stopped vaporizing fuel due to be clogged up and now they basically just pissing fuel in.
To test for that, a shop would pull the injectors. At home you can test for that by unplugging the fuel pump and see if it will run for a few seconds on starting fluid.
Be sure to keep face away from throttle body while and after spraying it in as backfires are common.
Definitely will try starting fluid and report back. I can unplug the injectors and see how that works. Thanks for your advice!
12-30-2017
#10
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
Wet plugs can't fire. It doesn't matter if you dump more gas in or starting fluid, wet plugs don't work.
12-30-2017
#11
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Age: 29
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
12-30-2017
#12
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
Um...... Unplug the injectors so they can't squirt any more fuel in.
Then keep trying until it does fire and try to run on the leftover excess fuel that's in the cylinders and intake manifold already....once it fires and tries to run all that excess fuel out, then reconnect the injectors and see if it will start and run on its own (will probably still need to manipulate the gas pedal)
By the way, you said you poured some gas into the intake manifold? Is it just sitting in the bottom of the manifold in a pool now?
Also if it's still flooded and cranks weakly, you may need to re-oil the cylinders again
Battery charger for strong cranking and faster starter RPM?
Then keep trying until it does fire and try to run on the leftover excess fuel that's in the cylinders and intake manifold already....once it fires and tries to run all that excess fuel out, then reconnect the injectors and see if it will start and run on its own (will probably still need to manipulate the gas pedal)
By the way, you said you poured some gas into the intake manifold? Is it just sitting in the bottom of the manifold in a pool now?
Also if it's still flooded and cranks weakly, you may need to re-oil the cylinders again
Battery charger for strong cranking and faster starter RPM?
12-30-2017
#13
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Age: 29
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
So I unplugged the injectors and removed the airbox. When I tried to crank it doesn’t try to start at all. Then I sprayed some brake cleaner in the throttle body while cranking and it backfired and lit the throttle body on fire briefly. Definitely seems like a timing issue but I’ve checked everything related to the timing. Not sure what else it could be.
12-30-2017
#14
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
Backfire like it's out of time?
Post pics of your cam and crank timing mark alignments so we all can see if the cam is timed correctly?
Check the cam gear bolt is tight, gear hasn't been slipping on the cam (mis-indexed).... and same for crank gear?
Do you know about checking valve overlap@TDC to see if cam is mis-indexed?
Use a long screwdriver in the spark plug hole to confirm TDC mark on pulley is still truly TDC, piston at the top of its stroke?
Post pics of your cam and crank timing mark alignments so we all can see if the cam is timed correctly?
Check the cam gear bolt is tight, gear hasn't been slipping on the cam (mis-indexed).... and same for crank gear?
Do you know about checking valve overlap@TDC to see if cam is mis-indexed?
Use a long screwdriver in the spark plug hole to confirm TDC mark on pulley is still truly TDC, piston at the top of its stroke?
Last edited by ezone; 12-30-2017 at 04:20 PM. Reason: Several edits, read it again
12-30-2017
#15
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Age: 29
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
Backfire like it's out of time?
Post pics of your cam and crank timing mark alignments so we all can see if the cam is timed correctly?
Check the cam gear bolt is tight, gear hasn't been slipping on the cam (mis-indexed).... and same for crank gear?
Do you know about checking valve overlap@TDC to see if cam is mis-indexed?
Use a long screwdriver in the spark plug hole to confirm TDC mark on pulley is still truly TDC, piston at the top of its stroke?
Post pics of your cam and crank timing mark alignments so we all can see if the cam is timed correctly?
Check the cam gear bolt is tight, gear hasn't been slipping on the cam (mis-indexed).... and same for crank gear?
Do you know about checking valve overlap@TDC to see if cam is mis-indexed?
Use a long screwdriver in the spark plug hole to confirm TDC mark on pulley is still truly TDC, piston at the top of its stroke?
Checked the valves at TDC for each cylinder and they aren’t being held open. Put a long 1/4 extension in cylinder one and put the engine on tdc and the crank alignment is spot on.
12-30-2017
#17
Registered!!
Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
Might be hard to tell from your camera angle, looks like it could be off by a tooth to me. Remember alignment marks are based on top of the cylinder head which is tilted forward.
Never tried brake cleaner as starting fluid.... not sure your conclusion is correct but at least you know for sure your getting spark...
Never tried brake cleaner as starting fluid.... not sure your conclusion is correct but at least you know for sure your getting spark...
12-30-2017
#18
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Age: 29
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
Might be hard to tell from your camera angle, looks like it could be off by a tooth to me. Remember alignment marks are based on top of the cylinder head which is tilted forward.
Never tried brake cleaner as starting fluid.... not sure your conclusion is correct but at least you know for sure your getting spark...
Never tried brake cleaner as starting fluid.... not sure your conclusion is correct but at least you know for sure your getting spark...
The angle is not the greatest but yes it is aligned with the head. Even if it was hypothetically off a tooth it should run. But no it is in time and the crank Pulley underneath the harmonic balancer is also where it should be.
12-31-2017
#19
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
from your camera angle
Never tried brake cleaner as starting fluid
Now I grab a can of carb and throttle cleaner. Flammable of course.
OP I think I'd plug in a good scanner so I can see what the computer is seeing in a data list.....
12-31-2017
#20
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Age: 29
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
Camera looks high so marks look low.
Just about anything flammable could be used, but some work better than others. I preferred to use brake cleaner in a spray can because it was really flammable and an engine would run on it, but this shop now gets it in 55 gallon drums and it's mixed with acetone and isn't really as flammable as it used to be.
Now I grab a can of carb and throttle cleaner. Flammable of course.
OP I think I'd plug in a good scanner so I can see what the computer is seeing in a data list.....
Just about anything flammable could be used, but some work better than others. I preferred to use brake cleaner in a spray can because it was really flammable and an engine would run on it, but this shop now gets it in 55 gallon drums and it's mixed with acetone and isn't really as flammable as it used to be.
Now I grab a can of carb and throttle cleaner. Flammable of course.
OP I think I'd plug in a good scanner so I can see what the computer is seeing in a data list.....
I’ve plugged my scan tool in, I have Honda software on it and can see every data PID that’s relevant and nothing seems out of the ordinary and there are no codes.
12-31-2017
#21
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
How much have you driven it?
How old is the gas?
Contaminated gas?
How old is the gas?
Contaminated gas?
12-31-2017
#22
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Age: 29
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
12-31-2017
#23
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Age: 29
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
I’ve checked the gas for water separation and everything checks out. Regardless it should start on a combustible gas (ie brake cleaner, starting fluid.) if the fuel is contaminated.
12-31-2017
#24
Registered!!
Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
Never mind, re read your post and you checked for clogged exhaust..
Last edited by Slumpertcivic; 12-31-2017 at 10:45 AM.
01-03-2018
#25
Registered!!
Join Date: Jan 2018
Age: 34
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
I was reading your thread and was wondering if you ever figured out your problem? I am having a similar issue with my 01 Civic EX with the VTEC motor.
01-03-2018
#26
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Age: 29
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
01-03-2018
#27
OF top 99.5% creator (Formerly of the Puffinblunts variety)
Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
OP: Have you performed a manual fuel pressure test with a gauge, or removed fuel disconnect to watch flow? You mentioned a scanner..does it show fuel pressure and if so is it reliable?
Related fuel links:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...ssure-2944675/
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...-line-3229989/
As others have pointed to it seems to be either a lack of fuel or flooded. Have you tried removing spark plug and blowing compressed air into cylinders at BDC combined with dried plugs. If that doesn't work then adding as oil to cylinders as Ezone recommended to try a second time.
Suction out and/or blow compressed air into TB and intake manifold to remove gas you poured into intake.
Related fuel links:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...ssure-2944675/
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...-line-3229989/
As others have pointed to it seems to be either a lack of fuel or flooded. Have you tried removing spark plug and blowing compressed air into cylinders at BDC combined with dried plugs. If that doesn't work then adding as oil to cylinders as Ezone recommended to try a second time.
Suction out and/or blow compressed air into TB and intake manifold to remove gas you poured into intake.
Last edited by Wankenstein; 01-03-2018 at 10:20 AM.
01-03-2018
#28
Registered!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Age: 29
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
OP: Have you performed a manual fuel pressure test with a gauge, or removed fuel disconnect to watch flow? You mentioned a scanner..does it show fuel pressure and if so is it reliable?
I have disconnected the pressure line and primed the fuel pump into a glass jar a got sufficient flow, i understand that doesn’t verify pressure 100% but I’ve never seen a vehicle with a fuel delivery problem not start on a combustible gas when sprayed in the throttle body.
Related fuel links:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...ssure-2944675/
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...-line-3229989/
Related fuel links:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...ssure-2944675/
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...-line-3229989/
01-03-2018
#29
OF top 99.5% creator (Formerly of the Puffinblunts variety)
Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
OP:
"I have disconnected the pressure line and primed the fuel pump into a glass jar a got sufficient flow, i understand that doesn’t verify pressure 100% but I’ve never seen a vehicle with a fuel delivery problem not start on a combustible gas when sprayed in the throttle body."
Dong:
Sorry I think I messed up your reply #28. I added a bit more to my reply #27 and you were responding while I was editing that post. Looks like fuel delivery is good.
#27: Have you tried removing spark plug and blowing compressed air into cylinders at BDC combined with dried plugs? If that doesn't work then adding as oil to cylinders as Ezone recommended to try a second time.
Suction out and/or blow compressed air into TB and intake manifold to remove gas you poured into intake.
"I have disconnected the pressure line and primed the fuel pump into a glass jar a got sufficient flow, i understand that doesn’t verify pressure 100% but I’ve never seen a vehicle with a fuel delivery problem not start on a combustible gas when sprayed in the throttle body."
Dong:
Sorry I think I messed up your reply #28. I added a bit more to my reply #27 and you were responding while I was editing that post. Looks like fuel delivery is good.
#27: Have you tried removing spark plug and blowing compressed air into cylinders at BDC combined with dried plugs? If that doesn't work then adding as oil to cylinders as Ezone recommended to try a second time.
Suction out and/or blow compressed air into TB and intake manifold to remove gas you poured into intake.
Last edited by Wankenstein; 01-03-2018 at 10:41 AM.
02-29-2020
#30
Registered!!
Join Date: Feb 2020
Age: 26
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Car has Spark, Fuel, and timing but won’t start?
I was reading your thread and I was having a similar issue with my 93 honda civic and was wondering if you ever figured it out it has spark is getting fuel and airflow is good I've also checked the timing and its spot on
