Niaboc67

Hello,
I have 150k on my 03 Civic it has overheated several times. I thought I had a blown head gasket turns out I do not. I pulled the car apart and pulled off the cylinder head. I took it to a machine shop and they checked it for flatness I got an okay from the machinist. I was told that if it was a cracked head that one of the cylinders would be steam cleaned. Nothing of the sort here. I am now left perplexed, what else could cause an overheating issue. I've had the water pump, stat, rad and fans checked and replaced. Two master techs suspected a small crack in the head gasket. Should i get a second opinion on the cylinder headbeing cracked? How about a cracked cylinder wall or a cracked block? How might one check for such things, such as tests. I poured blue devil engine sealant in this car before and it was a huge mistake. When I pulled off the head there was what looked to be white rock salt all in the cooling jackets and coolant holes. I got a lot of that out but not sure how to get the rest that must be in the cooling system. I pulled a big chunk of the sealant that was blocking up the thermostat. Before the sealant was put in the car, the car could run for an hour on the highway before overheating after the sealant it would run for a few minutes and overheat. This is probably due to the thermostat being completely blocked off by sealant. Here are pictures of the head gasket, the cylinder head, and the block.


https://m.imgur.com/a/5c4u4


https://m.imgur.com/a/5c4u4

Thank you

04 blue civic

With all that build up in coolant passages and what your describing as chunks you pulled out... the radiator and heater core are most likely clogged..

I assume you made sure thermostat in correctly, fans working, etc.


Your pics of headgasket aren't good for me to see. There's a lot of scuffing on that cylinder head surface as well its hard to tell how deep those are.. are these pics after head removed or after resurfaced?

Niaboc67

Thaanks!

the head has not been resurfaced the machinist seemed to think the head was okay. When the car gets hot and I turn on the air hot, I get full heat, wouldn't the entail that the heater core is working correctly?

ezone

What tests or observations are you basing this statement on?

5.0Thunder

Did you see that massive checklist I wrote up in your other thread OP? If that went disregarded, lol, I'll quit helping people.

Niaboc67

I can physically see no cracks on the head gasket.

Niaboc67

Yes I've run through these.
1. Fans work fine, ive done the paper clip trick to short the fans and they both come on. Car still overheats just slower.

2. When I took the head off I also examined the stat housing, it was clogged with the blue devil sealant blocking flow. This was the reason for poor flow to the stat. So I need to thoroughly clean out all the passage ways that may have this sealant in it. Any ideas are welcomed and where else that might need to be cleaned.

3. With the rad. I removed the top and lower hoses, then stuck a garden hose to the top hose, I checked the flow of water. All seemed well, flow was consistent.

4. I did a compression check on each cylinder, for each one I got between 150-180psi. Did this both on a hot and cold engine.

5. Head gasket was replaced and I also removed the new old. I have both the new and old gasket in hand, both have both cracks haven't felt very carefully around the surfaces. Also took the head gaskets to a machinist who said there was also no cracks. Same with the cylinder head. Was checked with a flat edge and a flashlight. Nothing out if place.

Also with the heater core, when the car gets hot the and I turn on the air it is very hot so I guess this means the heater core is in working condition.

5.0Thunder

so sounding like thermostat/housing is the issue? you verified the fan switch?

GusBuz

Hold on there... Did the machinist JUST use a straight edge and flashlight? Did he use feeler gauges?

ezone

You won't because there aren't any cracks. It's still a gasket failure if it's a failure.

Usually the only outwardly visible clue is the black coating peeled off in a spot at the fire ring on the affected cylinder(s).

You did do the cylinder pressurization test to determine which cylinder(s) were breached, right? So you know which hole(s) in the head gasket to be inspecting.



Also, all those fine scratchmarks all over the important surfaces might be sufficient to cause problems (leaks) if you put it back together.

ezone

That answers one issue.

Fire is cleansing


Sounds bad to me, too much variation if that's on one engine. But I don't see actual test results here to make that evaluation.



How many thousandths of an inch is that? Or how many hundredths of a millimeter is that?

(I can't really knock this, it sounds like something I might do.....because it's easy to verify perfectly flat this way, but you can't measure the warp if it is warped.)


That and the radiator seem ok I guess, but try to backflush to get any crud out anyway

Niaboc67

He was quite hasty about it, just slid a straight edge across it quickly and a flashlight. Seems like he could have been more thorough. Am getting a second shop yo be more thorough tomorrow afternoon. They will hot tank the cylinder head and check for any warpage.

Niaboc67

That was what was causing such a quick overheat but not the original cause of the overheating after an hour. That is still to be determined.

Niaboc67

thanks
Am going to get a second opinion tomorrow at another machine shop. Do the pictures given provide any indication of any cracks it problems?

GusBuz

When I took the head from my civic to the machine shop they guy checked it. It was all fine until he measured diagonally that's where there was warpage between cylinders 2 and 3. When i looked at the gasket it was just missing the black coating like Ezone said, that was enough for a breach and coolant to go out the overflow.

ezone

If you had done the tests you would know which cylinder(s) you need to be checking.

You would see any cracks yourself better than any of us here on the internet.

I already mentioned:

Also, all those fine scratchmarks all over the important surfaces might be sufficient to cause problems (leaks) if you put it back together.

The head and block machined surface finish must be extremely smooth so the head gasket can seal well, and sandpaper or whatever you used might have made it too rough.

Niaboc67

Ill have to wait until monday now since the machine shop is closed to have them check it out and hot tank the head. The block is a different story, taking it out seems a bit excessive. I want to be able to get all the blue devil contaminants out though. Do you think I could put it all back together and then somehow backflush the entire cooling systemw it a garden hose and take off the top rad hose?

Also, how likely are these heads to crack? Also, given that the cylinders look like there aren't steam cleaned, wouldn't this indicate that there isn't a breach in the gasket or a crack in the head. If there was a crack in either the head or gasket wouldn't there be clean signs or wear or steam cleaning? I see none of that, nor is there a milky oil or white smoke out the exhaust. The sealant was causing such a quick overheat but not the original cause before, of course. Would hope the head just needs to be resurfaced. But it seems like a cylinder(s) would be steam cleaned.

Niaboc67

My guy was very brief about it, he took a look at the gasket for a few moments, didn't say much say much, just "okay". Then examine the head hastily. I always seem to get these type of mechanics who are very brief and quick with me, I wish I knew why they always act this way around me. Or maybe it's with everybody.

Niaboc67

For the block what would you recommend for cleaning the surface, could I use brakeleen? and use find grit sandpaper 320?

Wankenstein

Block is thicker and less likely to crack or warp but still a possibility. Check out these pics: https://www.google.com/search?q=hond...w=1366&bih=623

Niaboc67

So the block deck I shouldn't need to take out and hot tank it and resurface it? But the cylinder head should be hot tanked and resurfaced/checked for cracks?

Wankenstein

As far the cylinder head any decent machinist will advise you to allow them to hot tank it to check for cracks, check it for level and check for valve leaks. What fee they charge is up to you to inquire about. A block could have a crack in the cylinder walls that may not be seen without the pistons removed. Do a wet compression test with a teaspoon of oil in the cylinders and see if compression rises.

Here's a read on cracked block symptoms: http://www.discountrebuiltengines.co...gine-block.php

I don't have enough experience with 7th gens to know if block cracks are somewhat common or an anomaly. Did you use a precision straight edge and feeler gauges to check the block for warpage?

Niaboc67

From that link the only symptom I have is the overheating. It is a slow overheat that only happens after an hour drive. Doesn't seem to be a leak either. I see coolant be shot out the overflow after the drive. So something is causing a lot of pressure buildup. Seems like a head gasket or cylinder head crack would cause such a such problem. A breach would be gases are escaping and overheating the coolant so the car is no able to cool down the coolant fast enough and sends all that pressure to the overflow. That's what it seems like.

Wankenstein

Bring to a qualified machinist
Get cylinder head inspected for cracks, valve leaks, flatness, compression springs tested. Check block for flatness as I mentioned previously. Inspect block and head for glass-like smoothness as Ezone asked you to do. If all is good install head per service manual. Use OEM head gasket only.

More reading on block crack inspection: http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012...nd-correction/
basically, without it pulled from the engine bay and proper test equipment it may be all but impossible to find a crack unless you get lucky and it's located where it can easily be seen.

ezone

Any of that stuff that actually converted from heat probably won't be removed.

VERY slim.
Not impossible--- but not bloody effing likely especially if it really isn't warped.


Nope.

You only get steam cleaning if water/coolant gets into a HOT cylinder -----while the engine is running.

A cooling system might reach a maximum 15 PSI.
Combustion pressures can be as high as 1000 PSI.
Which of the above is more likely to leak which direction---through a compromise that's in the 0.00001" range?

Correct.
I know why I'm this way with many people LOL
If it hasn't already been ruined with sandpaper,

I only use a single edge razor blade to scrape the high spots, and brake or carb cleaner to wipe it.
The gasket will always leave some black stuff embedded in the machined surfaces. I don't ever try to get the surface spotless.....because it's too easy to ruin the surface. FLAT is important, not spotless.

Same with the cylinder head.


That's a leak.

Both a head gasket breach and overheating can cause that to happen.

A breach is ANY compromise no matter which areas, no matter how minor or major.

Incorrect.
Correct but wrong reason




You've apparently got a combination of causes......

ONE was the glob of Satans Blue Goo blocking coolant flow.
TWO is the head gasket breach and all the associated symptoms that go with it

What I can't determine (and it's late I'm tired so I don't really care anymore) at this point, is, "which problem came first?"