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Are they close to needing swapped at the 150K mark?

Not really with much funds for serious head work (Extrude-Hone? 3-angle? Port-matching?), but if the head needs to come off soon for new HG, may as well get the guides done... unless with this motor, it's a major pain or not even close to needing it at that mileage.

 
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Head gasket and go.
Wanna do rings while the head is off?

If no issues with valves, I see no reason to mess with them. I can't recall ever seeing problems with guides here, but that's just me.

 
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Okay -- well if a 7th gen hasn't come in with anything but seal leakage (from possibly super-high mileage ones), then guide wear isn't apparently a problem.

SOHC engines with long rocker arms (rather than the stubby rocker followers on DOHC Hondas or bucket followers like my old Paseo) tend to put more radial (lateral) thrust on the valve tip... guides start to wear like an hourglass at both ends, which lets more oil through, as well as lets the face/seat seal walk a bit, increasing face wear.

On Honda motorcycles this isn't a problem, as the sport ones tend to have DOHC car-like stubby followers or bucket tappets (and cruisers are all hydraulic tappets)... but their utility ATVs have SOHC and rockers that tended to need guides after a few years.

And you'd recommend fresh rings on a worn bore surface? Usually when the bore/ring interface goes, it's the bore that wears, not the hardened rings (the oil control ring fails to scrape effectively on an oval bore, causing blue smoke... but that's my exp on powersports Hondas.

 
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I'd have it checked by a shop if you were really worried about it. Unless you have slight leak-by or oil burning issues, I doubt rings woul need to be done.

As for valve guides, my 130k head was fine without needing valve guides replaced, and my 40k head didn't need any after bending all 16 valves (timing belt murdered by the tdc sensor bolt)

That said, I concur with ezone, HG (and any associated gaskets involved with the process) and go.

 
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I'm aware of how guides can wear, but I don't get to see it here, and wouldn't ever notice unless it presented itself as a problem.
My customer base on these Civics (that I can recall) seems to kinda taper off at 250k miles.
(Had a 2003 Civic in today with only 30k on it.)

I'm also not a machinist, we don't have a machine shop on-site, and don't plan on it. A machinist might get to see more real valve problems than I do.

When a car comes in needing a head gasket job (or really any problem), nobody ever seems to really want to go the extra mile to do much more than what it absolutely needs.

Also..... For the cost estimate of some of these bigger jobs, we could drop a used engine in it for the same price. (Just ignore the part about any used engine still should have the head gasket, timing belt, water pump, and all the rest of that stuff done before it goes in.)




CRAP! The cat just walked across my keyboard and edited a whole bunch of stuff. Attention *****.

If you want it on the cheap, hell yeah clean the pistons and stuff rings in and go.


Rering an engine under warranty, we don't touch the bores. Clean the pistons, stuff fresh rings in and go. (See the link below for an example.)


Seriously: Most of the oil consumption issues on the 1.7 are caused by stuck oil rings, not bore problems. (And stuck rings generally originate from the choices of oil.)
I'm not aware that there are gap issues on this engine either.

OTOH, some rings might get collapsed from serious overheating, some might be just plain worn from high mileage and crappy air filters.

Regarding the 'under warranty' comment above, refer to this bulletin for an example (CLICK HERE) check the mileage coverage and procedures in the document. There are a couple other bulletins in that series for other V6's too. Another bulletin you can look up...12-087 for 08-11 Accord 4 cyl. There's one for 12 Civic Si too.


If you really want to go all out and do it right, pull the block, have it bored, get oversized pistons, trust your local *COUGH*hack*COUGH* machine shop, spend a ton of loot on a puny little econobox D engine LOL, go for it! (I'm not real trusting of local machine shops here anymore.)


Or drop a used one in. Probably find them used for $500 all day long, plus labor. (Probably not that cheap on an island though huh?)

BUT I thought you indicated you didn't want to spend a bunch of coin. Fix the main problem: Head gasket it and go. (IF that's the real problem)

Do it the flat rate way, lift 1/2 inch and slide!
J/K



My truck has a couple pistons with stuck oil rings, and has had the issue ever since I got it .....this year makes 20 years I've owned it.
IF I still have it and it ever blows the head gasket (expected around 180k), then I'll stuff rings in exactly as above.

 
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Sweet -- thanks ezone... I like that you take the time and shoot straight with details on questions I have, as I tend to have a lot of them. Yep, I'm of very limited fun money... but also don't mind a bit of extra spending, if the cost:benefit is high and ONLY if it's high. As in potentially enough power to get out of its own way... and increase my resale value.

I was reading in another thread about how someone thought a 12.7 HP difference wouldn't be worth it for a CAI. I was like... what? You won't feel 3hp... but four times that is definitely worth the cost in a 2600 lb vehicle.

Yep, I get the motor swap angle... and it's even more cost-effective for bikes, since you can crash the forks off a modern sport bike and often still salvage the drivetrain as its wrapped in the frame itself. I thought, 'while I have the head off... why not send it to CA to get a quality street setup, while getting rid of worn parts'. Your input is pretty much telling me, just save the bones for a CR-V K swap... which was on the table at the time. That's if I abandon my plan to save for a Mazda 3s hatch... which is definitely still on the front burner.

Re: rings -- in my capacity, it was tech suicide to stuff new rings in an ovaled bore... but we're talking vehicles with OEM 13:1 compression and up to 16K rpm in modern sport 600s. But in a car with less than half that rpm, wear apparently is very much less, so you *can* get away with just new rings, huh? Yeah my Paseo dirtied its oil pretty quickly after almost 20 yrs, but still had good comp... which pointed to oil control rings. Just less metal there so they lose spring much sooner than the compression rings.

And yep... trying to do any self-wrenching on this island is like pulling wisdom teeth.

 
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Is there blood all over the bike when this happens? (Yeah, I've crashed a scoot before.)

I'm just tossing my opinion out there. Spending coin when and where is totally up to you and where you place value on your stuff.

I think of them as cars and a job, so I think different about things than some.....(JUST FIX IT!!!!) but I'd take the time and a little more money to do far more to my truck, even though it freekin sits all the time and I'll probably never wear it out before it rusts away. It needs some trans bearings too.


The only increase you get is from "working" as opposed to "broken". It's a Civic, you are gonna be hard pressed to artificially inflate the resale more than it already is IMO. Stock and working seem to give the highest resale...... (unless maybe you rice it and have a kid on the line that's willing to pay dearly for something that's already riced.)
JMHO. YMMV


CAI is worth up to 12.7 HP? Ok, I guess zero is included in "up to". (sorry, not a real fan)


I'm expected to, if you read the linked bulletin info.

Hell, back when Mazda had us replacing pistons in the JE(?) 3.0 engines, we were reusing the original rings on brand new pistons.

I have reringed many engines in the past, just clean and replace and run it (most were back in the Mazda days) with no issues, but there have been others since then too.
Done a few "in frame" rerings with the dingleberry hone in a drill, the proper prep and cleanup was far more work than it was worth.

And a dingleberry can't true a bore, but it will make the low spots have crosshatch marks!
This is why I change oil in the truck when it gets dark, which used to be at like 1000 miles or so. Plus I don't drive it hardly at all. I ran ONE whole tank of gas through it last year.

The truck can and will smoke a city block out if I do it just right (or wrong?) I have the sequence down, I have to watch just moving it around in the driveway so it doesn't smoke everything all to hell.

Low tension rings to begin with, they can lose their spring in an overheat right quick..



Speaking of stuck rings, you may run across where I have posted about my GFs Saturn that used to drink a quart every 500 miles. I started using our 5w20 Honda approved bulk oil from the shop in it, now it's consumption is up to about 1000-1500 per quart. It's taken a long time to reach this point, but it's slowly improving with zero extra effort on my part.

 
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Haha -- oh yeah... Esp with squid-bros with shorts and flip-flops and their little spinner friend/benefit on the back.

I once watched a 17yo trust fund kid in Phx buy a 150-hp, 400-lb '00 Yamaha R1 from one of the less-ethical salesmen at my dealership... for his first bike. My SM and I looked at each other prepping it for him, and I bet him it'd be back in either three days, or less than 100 miles. We bet lunch on it...

Sure enough, that weekend we get a visit from a tow truck with a ball of R1 on it -- forks ripped out and steering head bent, swingarm ripped off, tank torn off, and subframe and tail-seat missing. -- he wrapped the bike around a telephone pole and utility box at almost a buck after sliding on sandy asphalt. In the hospital as we spoke... and I got the IP from the tow guy for mileage, rigged it up with a battery to read the mileage -- 91 miles. Free enchiladas are the best enchiladas.

That same kid was back five months later in November, still in an arm cast... to buy another R1. And he got it, thanks to the same salesman.


Oh I know -- besides anyone dumb enough to blame a forum post on their bad luck with a purchase decision needs to grow up until their jewels drop, at the very least. I just wanted to get some truth from someone who works on them and sees what they're there for. Never blame you for *my* decisions, let's just establish that right now.


Yep -- there's some 'englishing' on any claim for a performance part. I think the claim was 10%, which makes 12.7 hp. More important to me, is *where* that improvement begins, because without seeing a dyno graph, it's hard to know if the part was actually developed for an overall improvement, or undriveable with the tallest peak being your ad claim. But -- if a nicely-fitting, non-tab-snapping/rub-thru-ing/worthless-filter CAI can net a 7% improvement over most of the rev range (unlikely, but what do I know), and it's a couple of bills? Maybe it needs to go on my gutless little D17.



That doesn't surprise me one bit from Mazda of that era. Their BG chassis are full of that kind of 'wow this is trick... but why the hell is that like THAT?'



Yup, this one I knew for a looong time. In fact, the trick way to accelerate this process is to use (my preference) Rotella-T synth diesel engine oil, which has waaaay more detergents, anti-soot, anti-wear, and antacid additives than any gas ICE will ever need. This worked on a big 2000cc Kawi cruiser a friend of mine had in WA, smoked like Marley until I changed in one liter of Rotella-T 5W-20 to replace one of the three required in his regular Kawasaki (Motul) synth oil. Slowly, over another change, it stopped smoking. I told him to stop idling so damned much on the ferry, and swap in a liter of that stuff every change. Hadn't smoked since, and that was 2010.

Our endurance race team used it on our racebike and me in my streetbike (except 2 of 3 liters were Rotella, due to water + exhaust gas = acid in my Seattle commuter). Insides of my valve covers, engine covers, rebreather ports, and atop the head were sparkling clean like new -- no way the OEM spec bike oil would've been even close to housekeeping that tidy.

 
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I had a really bad consumption problem... but I think the Rotella swap I did is quickly fixing that. One way to make sure the rings are breaking up as much carbon in the grooves (esp top groove) as possible, is to drive normally with the Rotella in for a few hundred miles... then do some hard pulls in a high gear, with a nice long coastdown after each pull. The hi-pressure gas from the pull gets behind the ring and pushes it into the cylinder surface (after the Rotella loosens the external stuff from the crown to the groove) and 'scrubs' the groove clean, allowing more junk to break away and go out the exhaust or into the oil. Teaming this with Gumout Regane (polyether amine fuel system cleaner) in the fuel further accelerates this without fear of gasket failure from overcooling from manifold ingestion methods. Just change the oil when it looks filthy, rinse repeat.


Sweet -- that's a bunch of info I needed. If a love tap (or a few dozen ) from a piston isn't enough to compromise the guides... then that's enough proof for me. Valve guide wear on the SPI 2.0L Escort motor I had was enough to require seals and a guide swap... at <100K. And this is a motor with a redline in the 5Ks.

 
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^But that's not a Honda.

 
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Nope... but it is an example of valve guides wearing out at the 100K mark... actually, about 9K before the 100K mark.

They're huge valves, as it's a 2V/cyl motor... but guide wear on a much lighter 4V/cyl valve, won't necessarily double longevity on the guides. That's why I asked what the ballpark for them would be on the D17 @150K... which has similar long SOHC rockers, thus similar radial thrust on the valve tip as the Escort SPI motor.

The SPI is descended from the carbureted CVH, which was used in many turbo applications in the '80s and early '90s before Ford turned it into the dual-intake-mode SPI... and prior to ~75K... it's actually not so bad, other than even worse power and economy than a D17A2... and some horrible NVH. Guide-wise though... that isn't where Ford's rep for making garbage points to... just ask an owner how long the seats stay in before coming out and trashing your head, piston and cylinder, though!

Thanks for keeping me honest -- but unlike some posters I've come across in my own guru duties on other forums... I'm pretty used to thinking a fair bit about my posts before I hit Submit.

 
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No, that's an example of (poorly) engineered (junk) obsolescence. Did you keep it long enough for it to drop a valve seat?

HAH! I typed the above before even reading this part!


Even after thinking about it, I STILL hit submit sometimes.

 
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Thank gawd no. It was going to happen, though... but as it was an almost free car (the one I saved my mother from being crushed under the maintenance for, by buying her a Fit)... I figured, get it running and I'd drive it until it forced me to junk it. Unfortunately a hit-&-run totaled it a month and a half ago... hence my getting into a used Civic.

On a forum for Fords I used to post on... it seemed like just last month (right as my Escort got wrecked)... a bunch of other same-age Escort owners had their cars either drop a #4 intake seat (2 within two weeks); get into accidents that forced a sale or salvage; or had other crazy doorstop-ing/stranding Ford Escort problems. They really designed those things to stop working after 100K, full-stop (pun intended).

Mine was rusting so bad behind the passenger front wheel, that at a certain point three inches next to the jack point, the unibody began to crush down around the stand... lucky thing I had the jack ready and the wheel was on. Had to jackstand under the rear control arm pivot. Early '90s Mazda body rot + pistons/rods you have to press the wrist pins out of + SPI valves that built up EGR soot cakes the size of grapes + multi-control units that aren't sealed so they collect moisture and strand you but aren't made anymore + nonchalant parts updates that aren't documented anywhere but with Ford dealers = steaming moose dognuts.

Yeeessss -- ZZ Top, baby! One of my riding buddies at coffee in WA was an old grunge guitarist, and his cover band played mostly early ('70s) ZZ Top -- Rio Grande Mud, Tres Hombres, and Deguello. Badass with a good IPA and better with good company.

 
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I liked the old Escort GT with Mazdas engine in it.

Their 90s cars at least lasted longer than the 80s cars.

Had an 84 626.... it rusted out the drivers rear wheelhouse. The wheelwell moved upward until it hit the speaker shelf, and you couldn't latch the folding seatback without jacking up that corner of the car.
It was rusted out bad enough to be a DEATHTRAP at only 10 years old, 200k on it. Sold for $100.


I used to be a road warrior, road tripped this car all over 1/2 of the country....
At around 180k I had 3 huge disasters happen on that car, all within about 1000 miles:

it blew the head gasket on the way TO Grand Rapids, Mi., had to be there for a week.....
#2 cylinder guzzling water, would fill the cylinder after shutoff and hydrolock upon startup sometimes. Drove it all week that way and had to drive it on home, (several hours), stopping every 1/2 hour or so to refill with water. Rings were trashed after that.....but kept on driving it.

It had the ignition module in the distributor go bad (was in my driveway though)

And it locked up the original t-belt tensioner pulley 30 miles away from Indianapolis and smoked the timing belt right out of it.... I had JUST seen the timing belt and it still looked nearly new (but never had it tore down far enough to check the tensioner during the head gasket job. Dammit.)
After getting a ride from some friends in the city to round up some parts, I had the car running again in about 30 minutes----on the side of the interstate, 40 degrees, rain, wearing a good leather coat.




My B-truck is an 87. It's very prone to this same stuff. Frame rot and all the rest.

 
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Ah yes -- the BP 1.8. Best Escort they ever made, that cool little GT... if it wasn't for their aforementioned rust problems, it'd be a cool little project car if I was still in WA with my home shop... but all BG Mazda chassis rotted out their rear shock towers and wheel wells out still, not to mention the hollow unibody cavity that rusts its floor out behind the front wheel wells... so they didn't learn that much since the '80s. However that thin sheetmetal did make them very light, even among cars back then. That 1.8 is way overbuilt too... can take copious amounts of boost w/o grenading. Not exactly accurate with a ZX2 motor...

Back to valve guides for a sec: pretty encouraging that a D17's valves don't damage guides when they're bent in service by a timing belt issue... but I've also read that these valves can be bent simply by setting them on a bench on the deck side with the cam in place (meaning two cyl's heads will have valves open). Not that I'd ever do this, as my own exp with motorcycle heads, esp 600cc Four sportbike heads (DOHC, short duration but very high lift with stems like cocktail straws), but are the D17 valve stems pretty delicate?