Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
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Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
So I changed my wife's timing belt on her 2001 EX civic and replaced the water pump. I made sure that the cam gear and crank were lined up on their marks and that everything was put back together properly. I also added a can of sea foam to a full tank of gas, and changed the air filter along with the spark plugs. Long story short.......
A week later the car died while idling at a stop sign which was 50 ft from my house. I took the timing belt cover off and checked everything because I thought it was my fault it died, but I could not find anything wrong. The belt was tensioned fairly tight. I thought the timing was off when I checked it, but I realized that if the cam gear is top dead center the crank shaft may not be lined up perfect, unless a full revolution is made again. So I believe that the car did not spin/slip the timing belt. All sensors were plugged in. Nothing wrong from what I could tell. Just not starting.
I pulled the fuel rail off to see if the pump was working and I shot fuel everywhere so yes....it works. I realized later that I could have just listened to the pump, but whats the fun in that!!?......
I checked all 4 spark plugs and all 4 get spark. (when i pulled out the number 3 and 4 cylinder plugs they were a little wet and the 1 and 2 cyl. were normal with a little white. Maybe it was flooded)
I pulled of the air box and tried spraying carb cleaner in the intake and it still would not start.
I checked all the fuses as well.
Did I some how mess up the crank sensor? or cam sensor?
Any suggestions would help. I am about to tow it to a shop and throw in the towel..... The guy at the shop said he could probably figure out what was wrong with it and said it would be $65. I find that a fair price. He did seem like he already knew what the problem was though. I guess I have to pay to find out.
Thank you in advance for reading this and trying to help me. Much appreciated!
A week later the car died while idling at a stop sign which was 50 ft from my house. I took the timing belt cover off and checked everything because I thought it was my fault it died, but I could not find anything wrong. The belt was tensioned fairly tight. I thought the timing was off when I checked it, but I realized that if the cam gear is top dead center the crank shaft may not be lined up perfect, unless a full revolution is made again. So I believe that the car did not spin/slip the timing belt. All sensors were plugged in. Nothing wrong from what I could tell. Just not starting.
I pulled the fuel rail off to see if the pump was working and I shot fuel everywhere so yes....it works. I realized later that I could have just listened to the pump, but whats the fun in that!!?......
I checked all 4 spark plugs and all 4 get spark. (when i pulled out the number 3 and 4 cylinder plugs they were a little wet and the 1 and 2 cyl. were normal with a little white. Maybe it was flooded)
I pulled of the air box and tried spraying carb cleaner in the intake and it still would not start.
I checked all the fuses as well.
Did I some how mess up the crank sensor? or cam sensor?
Any suggestions would help. I am about to tow it to a shop and throw in the towel..... The guy at the shop said he could probably figure out what was wrong with it and said it would be $65. I find that a fair price. He did seem like he already knew what the problem was though. I guess I have to pay to find out.
Thank you in advance for reading this and trying to help me. Much appreciated!
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
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From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
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Re: Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
I thought the timing was off when I checked it, but I realized that if the cam gear is top dead center the crank shaft may not be lined up perfect, unless a full revolution is made again. So I believe ....
and I shot fuel everywhere so yes....it works. I realized later that I could have just listened to the pump, but whats the fun in that!!?......
I changed my wife's timing belt on her 2001 EX civic
Have the gauges been acting funny?
*watches temp gauge like a hawkboss* :D
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From: Definitely older than ezone's skateboard. XD
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Did you do an idle learn before giving it to her to drive?
1. Start with a cold engine, all electrical loads OFF (A/C, lights, fan, brake lamps, etc.)
2. Remove negative batt cable for three mins, then reinstall.
3. Start and rev to 3000 rpm on the nose, and wait for the cooling fan to come on (I feel for hot air on my left ankle with with the door open, but you can use a helper if you like).
4. Let idle for FIVE FULL MINS, don't touch anything. Use a timer. If the cooling fan comes back on, stop the timer and start again only when it's off -- the engine must idle for the full 5 with no loads.
Idle should be much more smooth and take throttle better after this is done.
--
Cam belts should be tensioned quite snug; can't remember if there's a tension spec in the FSM offhand... though I wager ezone will know that off the top quite easily.
1. Start with a cold engine, all electrical loads OFF (A/C, lights, fan, brake lamps, etc.)
2. Remove negative batt cable for three mins, then reinstall.
3. Start and rev to 3000 rpm on the nose, and wait for the cooling fan to come on (I feel for hot air on my left ankle with with the door open, but you can use a helper if you like).
4. Let idle for FIVE FULL MINS, don't touch anything. Use a timer. If the cooling fan comes back on, stop the timer and start again only when it's off -- the engine must idle for the full 5 with no loads.
Idle should be much more smooth and take throttle better after this is done.
--
Cam belts should be tensioned quite snug; can't remember if there's a tension spec in the FSM offhand... though I wager ezone will know that off the top quite easily.
Last edited by kinakoes2; Mar 22, 2014 at 07:09 PM.
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I don't know about this fuel injector "click" If it is that clicking sound when starting the engine, then I think, yes. It does make that sound. I'll have to check.
I don't have a coder..... And the check engine lights come on when the key is in, so I don't know if there is anything new.
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Did you do an idle learn before giving it to her to drive?
1. Start with a cold engine, all electrical loads OFF (A/C, lights, fan, brake lamps, etc.)
2. Remove negative batt cable for three mins, then reinstall.
3. Start and rev to 3000 rpm on the nose, and wait for the cooling fan to come on (I feel for hot air on my left ankle with with the door open, but you can use a helper if you like).
4. Let idle for FIVE FULL MINS, don't touch anything. Use a timer. If the cooling fan comes back on, stop the timer and start again only when it's off -- the engine must idle for the full 5 with no loads.
Idle should be much more smooth and take throttle better after this is done.
--
Cam belts should be tensioned quite snug;.
1. Start with a cold engine, all electrical loads OFF (A/C, lights, fan, brake lamps, etc.)
2. Remove negative batt cable for three mins, then reinstall.
3. Start and rev to 3000 rpm on the nose, and wait for the cooling fan to come on (I feel for hot air on my left ankle with with the door open, but you can use a helper if you like).
4. Let idle for FIVE FULL MINS, don't touch anything. Use a timer. If the cooling fan comes back on, stop the timer and start again only when it's off -- the engine must idle for the full 5 with no loads.
Idle should be much more smooth and take throttle better after this is done.
--
Cam belts should be tensioned quite snug;.
I did notice the idle was low. I was going to adjust it, then this crap happened. And No, I did not do that "idle learn" If I get it running I will do so.
I will try these suggestions. Thank you for your post. I have until Monday morning to figure this out, cause if not, I'm just going to turn my Man card over to the mechanic and let him figure it out.
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
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From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
Rep Power: 517 Re: Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
WAS okay.... When it WAS running.
It's NOT RUNNING NOW. (Are you gettin my drift yet?)
I don't know about this fuel injector "click" If it is that clicking sound when starting the engine, then I think, yes. It does make that sound. I'll have to check.
You could use a "noid light" to see if the computer is giving them a pulse instead.
I don't have a coder..... And the check engine lights come on when the key is in, so I don't know if there is anything new.
Had the gauges been acting strange the last day or two? Ask and find out.
Does it fire and run for 2 seconds, then die?
Green key symbol not flashing angrily while the key is on?
You have the tools to recheck cam timing, right? I again suggest you begin with that....unless you have a better idea.
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
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From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
Rep Power: 517 Re: Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
They can jump teeth even while tight.
This is one reason why you aren't supposed to turn the crankshaft backwards.
(Manual trans cars can do this if left in the wrong gear on a hill without pulling the handbrake.)
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WAS okay.... When it WAS running.
It's NOT RUNNING NOW. (Are you gettin my drift yet?)
Each injector clicks as the computer turns it on and off. It's really hard to hear them while cranking the starter though.
You could use a "noid light" to see if the computer is giving them a pulse instead.
Ok... can you locate one? Borrow?
Had the gauges been acting strange the last day or two? Ask and find out.
Does it fire and run for 2 seconds, then die?
Green key symbol not flashing angrily while the key is on?
You have the tools to recheck cam timing, right? I again suggest you begin with that....unless you have a better idea.
It's NOT RUNNING NOW. (Are you gettin my drift yet?)
Each injector clicks as the computer turns it on and off. It's really hard to hear them while cranking the starter though.
You could use a "noid light" to see if the computer is giving them a pulse instead.
Ok... can you locate one? Borrow?
Had the gauges been acting strange the last day or two? Ask and find out.
Does it fire and run for 2 seconds, then die?
Green key symbol not flashing angrily while the key is on?
You have the tools to recheck cam timing, right? I again suggest you begin with that....unless you have a better idea.
The car will not start at all. I thought yesterday, I might have heard once cylinder fire for like a half sec. but I could have been hearing things.
I was thinking about buying a cheap coder, but I don't know if it will help in my situation, so I haven't yet.
Sometimes, the temperature gauge would read hot sometimes. Which is why I changed the water pump. It was kinda random when it would overheat....... I don't know
Thanks for the post.
Last edited by bigjonbird; Mar 22, 2014 at 10:10 PM.
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Recap:
It died after a week of running strong. Now it will not start or even try to start. So I checked the belt and everything looked fine (no teeth missing, no chunks of anything that could have made the belt jump). I took the belt off, checked the tensioner and the belt, then I put the belt back on and made sure that it was TDC and all the lines were in the correct spot. It did not fix the car. So thats when I checked the spark, sprayed fuel on my self and tried spraying random chemicals into the intake to get it to start.
This is the extent of my car knowledge, so I am stuck at this point in time working on my car.
Last edited by bigjonbird; Mar 22, 2014 at 10:13 PM.
*watches temp gauge like a hawkboss* :D
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From: Definitely older than ezone's skateboard. XD
Rep Power: 0 Re: Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
It's incidentally very similar to a Mazda Protege/Ford Escort SOHC tensioner, which requires you to check it in two stages -- one after installation and crank rotation check, and the second rotates the tensioner into its final position, so it'll maintain proper freeplay during the belt's life. Skip one, and it'll jump time before the service interval -- quite spendy with an interference engine.
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
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From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
Rep Power: 517 Re: Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
Elaborate on this.
Wait......
Got your owners manual?
Check out what this light is supposed to do, see if it is flashing normally or if it has gone into anti-theft mode.
Copied from page 80-81 in the Sedan owners manual:
When you turn the ignition switch to
ON (II), the Immobilizer System
indicator should come on for a few
seconds, then go out.
(^Normal^)
If the indicator
starts to blink, it means the system
does not recognize the coding of the
key.
(^Not normal^)
This indicator will also blink several
times when you turn the ignition
switch from ON (II) to ACCESSORY
(I) or LOCK (0).
(^Normal^)
Here's another description copied from http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/tsb/civic/x01-053e.pdf
Immobilizer System Indicator
The immobilizer system indicator is on the instrument
panel. If you insert a programmed ignition key (master
or valet) into the ignition switch and turn the switch to
ON (II), the indicator comes on for
2 seconds and then
goes off. When you turn the ignition switch to
LOCK (0), the indicator blinks for
5 seconds and then goes off.
If you insert a nonprogrammed ignition key into the
ignition switch and turn the switch to ON (II), the
indicator comes on for 2 seconds and
then starts to blink
. The indicator keeps blinking until you turn the
switch to LOCK (0). If you try to start the engine with a
nonprogrammed ignition key, the engine cranks, but it
cannot start.
So...What does the flashing green light do again?
Wait......
Got your owners manual?
Check out what this light is supposed to do, see if it is flashing normally or if it has gone into anti-theft mode.
Copied from page 80-81 in the Sedan owners manual:
When you turn the ignition switch to
ON (II), the Immobilizer System
indicator should come on for a few
seconds, then go out.
(^Normal^)
If the indicator
starts to blink, it means the system
does not recognize the coding of the
key.
(^Not normal^)
This indicator will also blink several
times when you turn the ignition
switch from ON (II) to ACCESSORY
(I) or LOCK (0).
(^Normal^)
Here's another description copied from http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/tsb/civic/x01-053e.pdf
Immobilizer System Indicator
The immobilizer system indicator is on the instrument
panel. If you insert a programmed ignition key (master
or valet) into the ignition switch and turn the switch to
ON (II), the indicator comes on for
2 seconds and then
goes off. When you turn the ignition switch to
LOCK (0), the indicator blinks for
5 seconds and then goes off.
If you insert a nonprogrammed ignition key into the
ignition switch and turn the switch to ON (II), the
indicator comes on for 2 seconds and
then starts to blink
. The indicator keeps blinking until you turn the
switch to LOCK (0). If you try to start the engine with a
nonprogrammed ignition key, the engine cranks, but it
cannot start.
So...What does the flashing green light do again?
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
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From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
Rep Power: 517 Re: Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
Was that written somewhere here earlier and I missed it??
I KNOW i can't read sometimes, but damn....
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Joined: Dec 2011
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From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
Rep Power: 517 Re: Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
You got spark so crank sensor should be ok...
Are the plugs wet?
Done a compression check yet?
I see now that you say it overheated (standard blown head gasket?). Did it do that again when it quit running?
Flaky coolant temp sensor making it flood out? (Codes and live engine data from a real scanner help now.)
Are the plugs wet?
Done a compression check yet?
I see now that you say it overheated (standard blown head gasket?). Did it do that again when it quit running?
Flaky coolant temp sensor making it flood out? (Codes and live engine data from a real scanner help now.)
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Elaborate on this.
Wait......
Got your owners manual?
Check out what this light is supposed to do, see if it is flashing normally or if it has gone into anti-theft mode.
Copied from page 80-81 in the Sedan owners manual:
When you turn the ignition switch to
ON (II), the Immobilizer System
indicator should come on for a few
seconds, then go out.
(^Normal^)
If the indicator
starts to blink, it means the system
does not recognize the coding of the
key.
(^Not normal^)
This indicator will also blink several
times when you turn the ignition
switch from ON (II) to ACCESSORY
(I) or LOCK (0).
(^Normal^)
So...What does the flashing green light do again?
Wait......
Got your owners manual?
Check out what this light is supposed to do, see if it is flashing normally or if it has gone into anti-theft mode.
Copied from page 80-81 in the Sedan owners manual:
When you turn the ignition switch to
ON (II), the Immobilizer System
indicator should come on for a few
seconds, then go out.
(^Normal^)
If the indicator
starts to blink, it means the system
does not recognize the coding of the
key.
(^Not normal^)
This indicator will also blink several
times when you turn the ignition
switch from ON (II) to ACCESSORY
(I) or LOCK (0).
(^Normal^)
So...What does the flashing green light do again?
When turned to lock the indicator blinks 5 times like it is supposed to.
Thanks for the help.
As I was trying to start the engine, I can hear air moving? Like a failed combustion stroke, or something. but it only did it once on one try and once on a second try.
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
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From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
Rep Power: 517 Re: Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
Ok, carry on......
As I was trying to start the engine, I can hear air moving? Like a failed combustion stroke, or something. but it only did it once on one try and once on a second try.
Tried to fire? Or something else?
If it tried to fire, hold the gas pedal to the floor while you crank the starter.
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You got spark so crank sensor should be ok...
Are the plugs wet?
Done a compression check yet?
I see now that you say it overheated (standard blown head gasket?). Did it do that again when it quit running?
Flaky coolant temp sensor making it flood out? (Codes and live engine data from a real scanner help now.)
Are the plugs wet?
Done a compression check yet?
I see now that you say it overheated (standard blown head gasket?). Did it do that again when it quit running?
Flaky coolant temp sensor making it flood out? (Codes and live engine data from a real scanner help now.)
It did not overheat between the time I replace the water pump/spark plugs/timing belt and when the car just died outside my house.
And, I think I mentioned I put a bottle of Sea Foam through it.... not sure if that stuff would be the culprit or not.
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
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From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
Rep Power: 517 Re: Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
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I put the pedal to the floor and tried turning it over for about 30 sec or so and I got it to back fire once......not sure if that means anything.
It almost seems as if it is flooded.
It almost seems as if it is flooded.
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When I took the plugs out a couple days ago. #3 and #4 cyl. were a little wet. #1 and #2 were normal, with a little bit of white on them.
I cleaned them off with carb cleaner and let them dry. Checked them all for spark and put them back in the engine.
I cleaned them off with carb cleaner and let them dry. Checked them all for spark and put them back in the engine.
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
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From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
Rep Power: 517 Re: Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
I don't care about 3 days ago.
I want to know about NOW.
Try to start it again, then pull the plugs out and inspect them.
If it is flooded, the plugs will be wet with gasoline.
There might be liquid gasoline standing on top of the pistons.
If your plugs on cyls 3 and 4 were wet, what were they wet with? Coolant or fuel??
But if the plugs are dry then it's not flooded.
If the plugs are dry and it won't even fire off when you spray flammable stuff in the throttle, that's a problem.
Spark/compression/timing?
If the injectors are not being triggered, the PCM may think the cam is out of time. Or something else happened.
HTH
I want to know about NOW.
Try to start it again, then pull the plugs out and inspect them.
If it is flooded, the plugs will be wet with gasoline.
There might be liquid gasoline standing on top of the pistons.
If your plugs on cyls 3 and 4 were wet, what were they wet with? Coolant or fuel??
But if the plugs are dry then it's not flooded.
If the plugs are dry and it won't even fire off when you spray flammable stuff in the throttle, that's a problem.
Spark/compression/timing?
If the injectors are not being triggered, the PCM may think the cam is out of time. Or something else happened.
HTH
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So I took it to a shop. They said they had to pull the timing belt and check everything.....Long story short.
Timing was fine. (which is what I thought)
Compression was not ok. They said it wasn't getting compression in the #3 and #4 cyl.
They did a leak down test, but that came out ok (I don't have any numbers for this)
So I got the car towed back to my house. I am going to take the head off myself, and hopefully not screw it up.
I am thinking valve's are bent some how.....or the head is warped?
What do you guys think?
Timing was fine. (which is what I thought)
Compression was not ok. They said it wasn't getting compression in the #3 and #4 cyl.
They did a leak down test, but that came out ok (I don't have any numbers for this)
So I got the car towed back to my house. I am going to take the head off myself, and hopefully not screw it up.
I am thinking valve's are bent some how.....or the head is warped?
What do you guys think?
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
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From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
Rep Power: 517 Re: Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
Wait: low or no compression on 3 and 4, but the shop can't tell you why?
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Ezone,
I really appreciate your continuing support on this forum. Thank you
What I don't understand.... is how does it bend a valve when the timing belt is fine..... It got over heated pretty bad a week before I changed the timing belt, the first time.
Would a warped head = no compression? I am lost on what to do next. If it was a warped head....then why would it not at least try to start....
I really appreciate your continuing support on this forum. Thank you
What I don't understand.... is how does it bend a valve when the timing belt is fine..... It got over heated pretty bad a week before I changed the timing belt, the first time.
Would a warped head = no compression? I am lost on what to do next. If it was a warped head....then why would it not at least try to start....
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
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From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
Rep Power: 517 Re: Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
The pic of the lower seal on a fuel injector, that might only cause a vacuum leak (in my mind) BUT it looks like all of the seal is still present, it didn't lose any chunks.
That's not the cause of no compression.
Don't worry about it right now, you can fix it while the head is off. The O rings are cheap.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Your receipt states there was leakage noticed through the throttle body during the leakdown test. That would indicate to me that the intake valve(s) are leaking on that particular cylinder.
So you seem to have an intake valve sealing problem on the dead cylinder.
It also states the valves are "very loose", so that SHOULD mean tight valves aren't the cause of compression loss.
Valves that are "very loose", coupled with zero compression, coupled with the timing belt being on and off several times...... in my world would cause my first impression to be 'they are likely bent'.
Unless something is caught in the intake valve(s) causing them to stay open when they shouldn't be.
It's rare, but I've seen it happen due to carbon chunks stuck either on the valve and seat area, or wedged in the stem and guide area.
That's not the cause of no compression.
Don't worry about it right now, you can fix it while the head is off. The O rings are cheap.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Your receipt states there was leakage noticed through the throttle body during the leakdown test. That would indicate to me that the intake valve(s) are leaking on that particular cylinder.
So you seem to have an intake valve sealing problem on the dead cylinder.
It also states the valves are "very loose", so that SHOULD mean tight valves aren't the cause of compression loss.
Valves that are "very loose", coupled with zero compression, coupled with the timing belt being on and off several times...... in my world would cause my first impression to be 'they are likely bent'.
Unless something is caught in the intake valve(s) causing them to stay open when they shouldn't be.
It's rare, but I've seen it happen due to carbon chunks stuck either on the valve and seat area, or wedged in the stem and guide area.
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Ok. Thank you. Thats what the mechanics thought too. I will hopefully get the head off tomorrow and hopefully get it rebuilt this week. The hard thing is going to be getting everything back together.
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From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
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Search this site for the DIY head gasket guides, and get yourself a good service manual.
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Rep Power: 0 Re: Car won't start. It has spark and fuel pump works...... Recently changed TB.
So, here is the deal. I went to a shop today after I tore the head off, and he said all the intake valves are bent. It is very obvious since all 4 piston's show 2 dimples on each one, on the intake side. Plus you can wiggle the rocker arm because the valve is bent. The million dollar question is, "how did they get bent if it was in time?"
The car ran great for a week, then out of no where, the timing belt jumped teeth some how...... Did, somehow a piece of rubber, or plastic fall between the belt and gears? causing it to jump teeth.
Should I fix it? Or will it happen again...... that is what I have been asking myself all day....
I can get a rebuilt head off of ebay for $320 and a head gasket kit for $75 plus a $20 for a Haynes manual....haha. Plus some more shop towels, contact cleaner and one of the ratchet - open ended wrenches for the intake manifold nuts.
I figure I can do this for around $475 ish tops.
The car ran great for a week, then out of no where, the timing belt jumped teeth some how...... Did, somehow a piece of rubber, or plastic fall between the belt and gears? causing it to jump teeth.
Should I fix it? Or will it happen again...... that is what I have been asking myself all day....
I can get a rebuilt head off of ebay for $320 and a head gasket kit for $75 plus a $20 for a Haynes manual....haha. Plus some more shop towels, contact cleaner and one of the ratchet - open ended wrenches for the intake manifold nuts.
I figure I can do this for around $475 ish tops.
