Hi Octane

Hey guys.

I'm practically at my wits end, and very frustrated at the moment. I've spent nearly $250 in the past 2 months or so but the issue remains.

My AC was performing like a champ during peak summer months, daytime hours. Until I got the evap coil replaced, that is. Instead of getting the one Honda recommends, which is anywhere between $260 and $320, I got a cheap Chinese/Korean knock off. Got it for $60. I asked the AC tech if it would make a difference in the cooling performance. He said the only difference is the shelf life.

Current avg. temp. during the day - b/w 33 and 36*C, high humidity.

Well, the same day, I immediately noticed, the cooling wasn't the same during the day. The air feels cool, but not cold or chilly. And during daytime hours, God forbid if I have to leave it out in the sun for an hour or two, the cabin barely gets cool even after driving around for 15 mins at an average speed of 60 to 80 km/h. The cabin doesn't exactly feel very warm or hot either, after a while, but not cold like it used to. Cool air comes out of the vents, but not cold enough to cool down the seats or my clothes, for example. Feels like 25 Deg C air coming out the vents during daytime, and around 15 Deg C or lower at night.

Anyway, took it back to him. That jack*** is tells me it's fine, and there's nothing wrong with it. I've taken it to three different AC shops, including a 3s dealer, and keep getting mixed opinions. One of them asked me to replace the expansion valve and receiver dryer. So I went right ahead and bit the bullet. Cooling performance seemed to improve only slightly during the eve hours and night, but not daytime. Another one told me to replace the compressor and condensor, which makes no sense to me at all. More on that in a bit. Finally, two of the AC shops where I took her, recommended installing a better quality evap coil, something that is closer to Honda standards and specs. They recommended getting a Thai manufactured one that's available for $120, since I'm not interested in getting the genuine Honda one. They said the tubes and fins in those are installed in such a way so as to cool down the cabin faster and suck humidity and heat quickly, as per Honda AC performance standards. And that it performs practically as good as a genuine part should. I'm not planning on getting the Honda one available at 3s or 2s dealerships, since it's out of my range.

Now here's what I've gotten done on the AC ever since the evap coil replacement job:

* Full system evacuation and flushing.
* Refrigerant recharged and compressor oil refilled.
* High and Low pressures check out OK. No leaks.
* Condensor's good. Compressors good too, cycling on/off as it should. And pumping out cold air (L pressure line is fairly cold to the touch, but I noticed the H pressure line doesn't feel that hot. Feels like something between warm and hot). I have noticed how the compressor cycles off everytime I sqeeze the throttle to overtake, and then cycles back on. I suppose this is normal, but the air gets less cool during this time. Noticeably less cool.
* Electrical system, wiring, connections and relays all check out OK
* Expansion Valve and Receiver Dryer replaced
* No leaks detected

Since the coil replacement job, like I said, I've had her checked out at three different AC shops, and they say everything is functioning as they'd expect, but then they start giving me mixed opinions on why cooling performance isn't on par during the day. They say it's not supposed to cool that good during the day, which is utter hogwash! It was performing tip top during the day, before replacing the evap. coil. My friends who drive Suzukis with 1 litre, 100 HP engines, have ACs that work great during the day or after being parked in the sun for long hours.

Guys, I am at my wits end. Please tell me it's the evap coil, and that a better quality one will fix the issue? Applying my knowledge and common sense, that's the only conclusion I can come up with.

Please post your thoughts and suggestions soon. Thanks!

P.S: I've attached pics of the Thai manufactured coil that allegedly performs as well as the genuine Honda one, according to some AC techs. Please take a close look if you may, and let me know if I should get this one installed to improve cooling efficiency.

jedema

I may be green when it comes to car repair, but with my mechanical background, it seems like if you replace a part and the performance changes for the worse, then something is off with that part. Simple deduction IMO. Granted, there are a lot of variables in play now that you started the process of tinkering

You didn't put an OEM part in there and instead went with a cheaper knock off. It doesn't perform as well. I've seen your post at honda tech as well where you argued circles about this already and seemed like you expected somebody to sit there, read a few posts, and go AH-HAH!! and say change this and it is all better.

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3146290
That should help with any details you might have left out.

I'd wait for ezone to chime in since he is very knowledgable with these cars, but thats my two cents.

ezone

Sounds like there was NO problem.

What's wrong with this picture?

Wasn't broke until you fixed it.


Unh huh.

WHUT?


I can't even finish this reply.

ezone

Thanks for that link, it at least answered why the evap coil got replaced, even though I can't recall ever having to replace one here for leakage.

(I only read the first half of the first post too.)





EDIT: Assuming the oil and freon charges are correct, not overcharged or undercharged. These systems are so small, there isn't much room for error. A slight bit off and efficiency goes to hell.



Cheapo coil has far less capacity than OE.

Kinda like having a blowout on a one-ton truck and installing a golf cart tire because it was cheaper. It might hold the truck up, but fails as soon as you put a load on it.

Hi Octane

Right right... I see your point. I had a bad feeling about it when I was getting installed. The OEM part is far too expensive, so it looks like I'll be settling for the Thai one. I had posted pics in the link jedema provided.

Could you please take a look at those and see if it's legit and good for a 2005 Honda Civic, 4 door?

Hi Octane

Also, could you please tell me how you'd "fix" a leaked evap. coil? Everywhere I've gotten her checked up, and what I've read up online, points to one thing - replacement.

ezone

Replacement, no question.

OEM, no question.

It gets fixed my way, or the customer can go be pissed at some other shop.
I don't need a customer dictating repairs. I'm the professional, they are not.
I don't need to accept responsibility for their poor decisions that were based solely on price.
Really now?
Sure seems like you may have spent FAR MORE on the mess now with no resolution in sight. (If everyone that has "looked at it" was charging properly for their services.)
The correct part, the first time, would have been a great value.

What is the COST of that cheap PRICE?

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money %u2014 that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot %u2014 it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better." -John Ruskin






Slow learner, I see.





More crap I thought of:

IF the new evap was installed without all of its proper packing or foam-- whatever seals the core to the housing, then warm air may be able to pass around the core instead of being forced through it.


An evaporator core can be expected to only absorb so much heat in a single pass, or air exchange. About 20-35 degrees temp drop may be expected, and humidity plays a huge role in how much of a temperature drop can be obtained. The air must be dried before it can be cooled. High humidity = lousy cooling. This is why recirculate is used, it is far easier to cool air that already had the humidity removed from it.
(We actually have "cheat sheets" for figuring if there is an issue that needs addressed, simply checking several temperatures and humidity and comparing to charts of accepted values.)


It can take an awful looooooong time to cool down the cabin of a car when it is 200*F (95*C) inside it.
Like cooling off a hot oven with a single small ice cube.
The AC in these cars is not designed with any overkill at all. If the car is dark or black and you are driving in 110*F in the sun, the thermal and solar loads may be great enough that the car interior might never get cooled down.


Surface area of the exposed core, along with the volume of refrigerant it can hold, along with flow design, fin surface area, and a few other factors determine efficiency and capacity. Cheap is cheap for a reason.

Matt_75

johndeerebones

ROFL that is great! Prime example of why I'm changing careers. Hate to admit it but unless you work in a whole I am increasingly convinced any job deals with this....

jedema

In my original career path, I was a computer guy... That lasted two years. Now I'm an industrial mechanic/electrician for the past 10 years. Love it there. Machine doesn't run, they want me to fix it. No dealing with Pain in the rear customers looking for a price break, just customers (line workers) who are upset that their day just became longer than they were planning so they are very helpful in the repairs.

I've often wondered if I should look into automotive, but I think I'll stay where I'm at for a while still and keep this as a growing hobby.

Hi Octane

I see you're quite the expert here. However, that does not by default, give you the right to mock members facing issues with their AC. Or make sarcastic remarks, whilst providing some entertainment for other members, at my expense I might add. It's pretty funny, some of the stuff you wrote, I got a bit of a laugh out of it too. But I'm going to flat out say, it's disrespectful. When things go wrong, people visit forums and ask around as much as they can to retrace the fault, and make sure it doesn't happen again. I do not need to read these sarcastic remarks, so try to restrain yourself a little, if you can.

I'm in a dilemma and in these situations a forum, is the first place you visit to gain as much technical knowhow as you can. What's done is done. I came here to find a solution. So while I do appreciate your techinal expertise, I do not appreciate at all the tone you've used while making these remarks.

Now, on to the matter at hand:

My stock evap. coil that went bad had proper foam insulation around. So does the one I have installed at the moment. I believe my evap is dropping cabin temp by about 15*C, during the day, which is clearly not acceptable. A 2s Honda tech did the thermo vent test; it registered 55*C. He managed to bring it down to that after splashing the condenser with a little cool water. Ambient temp was around 90*F, fairly high humidity.
I never use fresh air, only recirculate mode. That's how I've been using all car ACs ever since I started driving. When I sit in the car after it's been parked in the sun, the cabin temp isn't more than 50*C, believe me. Because it doesn't sit in the sun for too long at a time, probably an hour to 2 hours, at a stretch. It's got a silverstone metallic body, so yeah I get it.. it's going to absorb more heat. But Civic ACs are not as bad as they are thought out to be. I've had her since 2005, and my AC had been in tip top shape until now. The 2013 models I believe, go down to as much as 5*C, cabin vent temp.

I do not have the funds to go for an OEM part. Those guys will most likely ask me to replace the recvr. dryer and TXV as well. If you're willing to chip in, I'd most definitely get the OEM part(s) installed.

ezone

Google is fantastic!

Not mocking, just pointing out some (apparently) inconvenient truths.


BTW, I'm not the one who posted the video. (Thanks, Matt_75!)
Do not discount the message just because you don't like the delivery.

You should have been around here when I quit smoking.

Then I'll suggest you try the CL auto forum, since this started as more of a general AC problem than strictly about any specific vehicle: https://forums.craigslist.org/?forumID=5 Don't leave out any of the important info either.
Plain and simple: It worked great before you had the cheapo part installed, now it doesn't work like it should.
See any logical next step here?

You mean replacing those 2 parts as a fix? I think you would have them do it anyway, because it is cheaper than the correct repair.

You seem willing to throw away an awful lot of money trying to do anything that your mechanics suggest EXCEPT put the right coil in. Math fail.

Did you never reveal that you had a ElCheapo evaporator installed when you had the system checked out---by what seems like a dozen different mechanics? Because obscuring the facts and hiding evidence never hindered an investigation.

It sure seems that your dilemma is one of your own choosing.
Based solely on what (I have read) you have written, which was scattered across two dozen posts: The apparent solution has already been suggested yet you still don't want to accept it, citing expense as the justification: Irrelevant, the fix is still the same.

Not my problem.

You sound like the person last week that whined and cried because he needed a transmission job that was worth far more than his car......Like that makes the job get cheaper or something.




A 13 isn't special. Most MVAC systems can get that cold when conditions are correct.


EDIT: This post was heavily edited. Much of the good stuff was removed. Left this much of it anyway. I want a smoke.

Zed

Lost cause ezone.

Matt_75

Maybe he skipped over it and thought it was an ad.

Biscuit

The only time mine had your problem the TXV was faulty.
You must also know that there is a FINE margin between working correctly and not working correctly with the system pressure on this vehicle.

ezone

You would think that at some point while having a dozen mechanics looking at it, at least one of them would have been able to identify if that was a problem during system pressure testing.

Right. Just a couple ounces too much or too little and cooling goes to hell.

But you would think that at some point while having a dozen mechanics looking at it, at least one of them would have been able to identify if that was a problem during system pressure testing.