guber

Hello again!

My new used HCH 2004 on 115 miles greeted me with a warm and fuzzy CIL in my 2nd week after about 200 miles, I don't even have the title yet.

Plopped my OBD-II ScanTool in and got

P0139 O2 Sensor Circuit Slow Response Bank 1 Sensor 2, and
P1130 Lack of HO2S Switch Adaptive Fuel At Limit

Alright, seem both related. On the ScanTool sensor reading I saw only 2 sensors. So I guess it is the one on or after the cat, harder to reach.

Question is: Denso or Bosh? Answer is probably Denso. What would be the right part number? I expect $50 - $70, and wonder if I should go ahead and replace both O2 sensors at the same time?

Will this be a never ending story? I am hopeful that not.

For now I have reset the codes, CIL off. I will wait until I have that Title in hand before putting sweat equity into this car. Also, I will be curious how many miles it will take to go back on. 200-250 miles and I will know that my friendly dealer has just made it go away for the sale. Ah well. As long as he sends me my title I'll survive that.

ezone

In looking at info for the P1130 code, it says to troubleshoot the other code (P0139) first.

Is this car a ULEV or SULEV? (It should say on a sticker on the drivers side rear door corner window).




DENSO always (or NTK if the original was NTK).
Never Botch on a Honda.

guber

... and it's a ULEV

Thanks Ezone, as always!

ezone

ULEV = KA emissions (meaning not a California spec car).


You better crawl under there and SEE how many O2 sensors there really is.
Total of three sensors, and this code deals with the rear two.

My info says the ULEV has TWO REAR sensors, and they BOTH MUST be replaced at the same time for this code. (Critical that both are done at the same time due to calibration issues between brand new and old worn sensors, every piece of info I see states this.)

Factory sells them as a sensor KIT.

Catalog link: http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...PIPE+-+MUFFLER

Part #17 here:


Technology ain't cheap.



There WAS a warranty extension for these 2 sensors that extended to 8 years/80,000 miles. Probably long expired for your car though. You are far past that mileage and time IIRC.

If you absolutely can't deal with factory parts (that will be exactly correct, no question) and you want to take your chances with the aftermarket, then I suggest this:

I'd say to pull the 2 rear sensors out and inspect the actual numbers stamped into the sides of them, then go to the DENSO (or NTK, whatever brand is in there) website and start looking them up, and matching the numbers you have on yours. Get the EXACT MATCHES to each of yours.

At least replace them with the exact matching OEM parts, not some cheapsh!t crap Bosch sensors from the DangerZoo that will make you chase your tail a week from now. Dead serious, the car will not like them.

HTH

guber

OK thanks, so here is from Denso's website:

Oxygen Sensor Trim: L4 (1.3L)
Eng: LDA1
234-4210
Loc. After Primary Cat; Exc. Calif. 1 Downstream Universal Trim: L4 (1.3L)
Eng: LDA1
234-4224
Loc. After Primary Cat; Exc. Calif. 1 Downstream OE Style Trim: L4 (1.3L)
Eng: LDA1
234-4352
Calif. 1 Downstream OE Style Trim: L4 (1.3L)
Eng: LDA1
234-4613
Loc. After Secondary Cat; Exc. Calif. 1 Downstream OE Style
So it looks like 234-4613 and 234-4210 should do it. Let's check prices ... Avance Auto Parts has them ...

After Primary Cat;
234-4210 $ 71.99 this is the universal part (no connector, reuse old one)
234-4224 $180.99 aha, the direct fit version is much more expensive

After Secondary Cat;
234-4613 $170.99 so there must be a universal version for this one too ...

234-4352 $330 - the Californians are phooked

No universal version of 234-4613 to be found.

There is Delphi, Wells and NTK also, besides Bosch. Why are people so against Bosch? It's a German company, aren't Germans good with cars?

guber

For NTK we have

24429 - $66.99 Post-Cat, Hybrid; Exc. Calif. (After Primary Catalyst), and
24431 - $99.99 Post-Cat, Hybrid; Exc. Calif. (After Secondary Catalyst)

I guess this here answers my earlier question, should I do all 3 now?

24665 - $338.99 Pre-Cat, Hybrid; Exc. Calif.

gulp, no I guess I pass.

So, its pretty clear to me now: I'll go with the NTK.

ezone

Your code only deals with the rear sensors. Not the front.

There are a slew of codes to deal with the sensors. I'd wait until there is a specific problem.

I hope they can do the job.
If not, then it was a waste of money.

I've been a driveability specialist for many years.
There is a LOT of stuff I have learned I can only trust with original parts.
Sometimes factory is the ONLY way.
I make my living solving problems.
I don't make my living on crap that "should have worked".


IIRC:
Delphi=mostly GM, some others (Most of the engine controls on my Harley are Delphi.)
Wells=strictly aftermarket AFAIK, DangerZone and discount specials.
NTK is an OE supplier to many manufacturers, mostly Asian, including Honda (part of NGK group).
Botch=OE European, Some Mopar, some others.

Sometimes a manufacturer DESIGNS their stuff around another manufacturers' products. When that happens, any quirks that happened to be in that product are accounted for, and some other manufacturers product won't necessarily work right. (GM was great at this in the 80s-90s.)

It's like some people think a spark plug is a spark plug is a spark plug.
But it sure seems like MOPAR is the ONLY manufacturer that can make an engine run good on a Champion plug.
I wouldn't even put a Champion plug in my lawnmower. It's a Honda too.

And nothing on Earth runs right on a Bosch Platinum plug.

guber

oh boy, online I can even afford a Denso, cool.

guber

Update: I have it fixed.

Got myself the two Denso sensors from ebay, the 234-4210 for less than $30 and 234-4613 for less than $50. Since I put them in I drove nearly 700 miles and no CIL.

One thing to note: the Denso sensors were a little bigger overall than the old sensors. So, not to worry just because they look a little different.

Another thing to note: trying to read the part number on the sensors is next to impossible and unintelligible as what's engraved on the sensors matches nothing.

Thanks for your
... Help

guber

Epilogue:

Even though the CIL didn't come on any more, I have noticed a significant drop in fuel efficiency. When I had this car just bought, I could get 42 mpg when driving very gently. But now after this 1000 miles trip, I can hardly get over 37 mpg any more. Nothing else is bad, smooth ride and all things working. Why is that loss of mpg?

ezone

For the moment I'll run with the assumption that the sensors have no bearing on the mileage. But be aware that it is entirely possible they might.

What was your average highway only gas mileage prior to this trip?
Wait, this is a "new-to-you" used car, you don't know what the highway mileage ever was.

EPA site: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Power...it=10&pageno=1


Wheels and Tires? Size/brand/rolling resistance? Fuel saver tires? No?

(Tires can kill gas mileage......I put 18" wheels and 225/40/18 Michelins on my own '12 Civic and killed an amazing amount of gas mileage instantly. I was actually shocked and I am still amazed how much I lost.)

Tire pressure? Low pressure kills mileage quickly.

Aerodynamics? Splash panels missing from under the car? (JizzyLube places like to rip them out and leave them off.)

Weight in the car? A whole famdamily plus luggage can be a whole lot of weight to pull around... Many families of 4 can max out the GVW of the car!

Driving conditions, roads, and terrain are huge variables.
Gas mileage starts dropping when you go faster than about 55-60 due to increased wind resistance.

My own observations BEFORE I got the 18' wheels on mine:
My best gas mileage seemed to happen around 45-55ish MPH, I could get much higher than what the window sticker said (had about 53 MPG showing on the iMID after an hour drive)......But if I go 70+ like everyone else on the interstates, my mileage is under what the sticker said (37 or less).
My original window sticker said 28city/39hwy.

tbaleno

I just replaced my upstream sensor and noticed about the same drop in mileage. I looked around here and found a way to reset the ecu. Search on resetting ecu. I haven't done a trip since I've done it, but it might help. I believe over time as the car runs it will eventually overwrite the old stored info and the car will start running normally but from what I hear, reseting the ECU is faster as the car starts from scratch building a map.

In about two or three weeks I will finally be able to buy summer gas. I'm so looking forward to high 50s in my mpg.

guber

Right, it did help, and I meant to report that here for a long time. The effect was AMAZING. The long trip I had produced bad mileage, but shortly thereafter the performance got better. I also disconnected the negative leg of the battery to force a reset, so I don't know if the problem got resolved with the reset or simply with the passage of miles / time.

Anyway, I am very happy now. Mileage is consistently over 40 mpg now. I go 600 miles with one tank!