04 Honda Civic

iTrader: (2)

Haha, I called a bad tester. Anyway be happy its a bad tester and not a bad motor.

I am sorry to be asking, but I got lost in all this text.

Car is running better at this point?

fsckewe

You sure as **** did call a bad tester. Would the engine even run at 70 or 90 psi?

At any rate, do the new numbers seem high? It's an unmodded, bone stock D17A2. There is still variance between cylinders.

So, I haven't had a chance to drive it. Tags are expired because I couldn't get it smogged because the CEL was on. It started with a ruff idle that seemed to clear up with a cleaning of the egr. Still chasing the misfire. Not certain if the valve adjust addressed the misfire. So I can't really say if the car is running "better" if you follow me.

ezone

Well, that's one hell of an improvement.
I wonder if there is still oil in the cylinders from the last wet test.
Center 2 are still lower than the others.

-----------------------

Problem.
Idea.
Random thoughts inserted here....out of order.
Not sure how to proceed with this...

The misfire codes......
Low comp on the 2 cylinders, with a leakage from an intake valve is probably going to result in misfires at idle, not driving down the road.

I think too much. Forest, trees. Plus this thread is too long and info is spread out too far to read it all over again. I was looking at the first post again......

You said in an earlier post that freeze frame was set at what, 2800 RPM?
If that is correct, stop now.
Put the plugs back in.
DISCONNECT THE EGR VALVE.
Drive the car on the same test drive as before when misfires set.
See if misfire codes come back.
Remember this "Clogged EGR passages can also cause misfire codes."
Disabling the EGR should remove that system from the equation. Yes, it will turn the idiot light on with EGR related codes. This is only a test.
Drive it a couple days to make sure.
If no misfire codes come up now, do you still want to keep going pursuing valves and head gasket?
Or do you just want the idiot light off to pass the emissions test?
I'm thinking that clogged EGR passages may cause the higher rpm misfire. You said the valve was full of carbon, the passages will be too, I'd bet.

----------------------------

Pretty sure you said this too:
The car started up rough and misfiring, --does it do it consistently? Is this a repeatable condition? How long does it last before it clears out and runs right?
Can you shut off the engine before it clears up, pull out the plugs, and see if any are wet with fuel, oil, or coolant.
Coolant-- you may have to taste the plug to figure out.

Has it done this since you did the valve adjustment?

------------------------------

Back to the discussion....

The valve core, the same design as the core in a tire valve stem but with a different pressure rating, is a Schrader valve.

Anyway...
Sooo, you have a valve leakage. Not much point in getting a leakage tester now, since any valve leakage is bad. Was this a cylinder that had tight valves?
Yes, pull the valve cover, make sure there is clearance, that both of the intake valves on that cylinder are closed.
If I had the leakage tester, or even without, I would have air on the cylinder and pull upward on the valves to see if that made any change in leakage. That could indicate bent valves or carbon deposits. Don't pry hard, the valves are flimsy and you can bend the stems easily.




Experimenting....Good.
Possible, see above.

[uote]
However, on each cylinder, I noticed leakage from the breather port on the valve cover. If I put my finger over the port for a second, some pressure would build and a nice puff of air would come out. Taking the dip stick and oil cap off I could hear the leakage pretty loud.[/quote]
Remember, EVERY piston/cylinder WILL leak past the rings. Comparison of the amount of air passing by for each cylinder is what matters this time.
The comparison results here SHOULD reflect the results of the wet (oiled) compression test (when done properly).


If the liquid level is up in the neck and not below (so the upper radiator tank volume is covered and out of the question), then this works.



LOL.
Respect.
I found where you said you were an engineer in some other post a minute ago. Didn't know what kind. Cool.
I wish I would have pursued engineering some days. I do have a bit of background in mechanical, but found I did well at fixing what others created in cars.


I'm a horrible teacher-- face to face. No patience. I think far faster than I can talk or type. I can't explain my thinking patterns when I'm trying to diagnose.
Only reading about multiple issues makes it pretty tough to assemble a mental picture with. I get scatterbrained, and I can get tunnel vision, hooked on one clue and ignoring others.
Forest, trees.
I have the attention span of a commercial when it comes to almost anything that isn't mechanical/electrical/electronic/and some chemical. ADD?
GF thinks I may have Aspergers syndrome.


Had dinner with parents over the weekend. Dad was talking about his boat developing a miss, got it fixed under warranty a few months ago. Said it started doing it again. Too cold for me to fire it up and check it out, but all I could do for the next half hour was ponder it. My GF was trying to talk to me and I was just lost in thought....diagnosing the boat in my head without ever seeing the boat engine. At least she knew why I had that vacant stare and didn't hear a word she said.

ezone

Not really. I wondered if there was still oil in the cylinders.
I was expecting 200-210 with good cranking speed. 10% error in a cheap gauge would explain that. I get that difference between my Sears and Snap-On gauges.




I'm thinking disconnect the EGR and drive it. EGR only works under a load and on the road, that may explain why freeze frame was at 2800 rpm. Let me know your results.

fsckewe

Yea, it is confusing. When I first noticed the issue my wife took the car to the dealer. The dealer said the black residue is normal. I'll have to take a picture or video. The overflow reservoir is opaque white plastic. You can no longer see thru it. Normal my ***.

This is when I first noticed it: we were doing a drive thru some very hilly and curvy areas with 4 people in the car. We stopped and I noticed the smell of radiator fluid. Looked under the car and some fluid was dripping out, slowly. Popped the hood but did could not determine exactly where it was coming from. Overflow tank full? I do not quite recall, as this was nearly 2 years ago.The transmission was working hard so I know that had warmed up. Perhaps it is transmission fluid (gear oil) ? It has gotten worse, as in more residue buildup in the overflow tank. I'll take pictures.

I don't think anyone has poured oil into the radiator or overflow tank unintentionally. 3 trips to the dealer and 2 mechanics and no one knew what was going on. The one mechanic that was highly recommended said he would have to tear the engine down and would not do anything other than pull the plugs to see if they were wet. He quoted me ~$2700 for a head gasket job. Since that visit, I think we have driven the car a total of 200-300 miles over 8 months while we decided what to do. It has been mostly sitting. Rough idle one day with CEL and misfire/egr codes, then I came to this website.

fsckewe

So, maybe. Remember my comment about blue smoke when starting the engine? I let it run until the blue smoke cleared. Does that mean all the oil is gone? Probably not, but I don't think there is a lot of standing oil in the cylinder either.

It is most certainly under load.

OK, will do.
Do I want to pursue valves and head gasket? Well, I want to do the right thing. What that means, I'm not certain. If there are problems with the engine that need to be addresed, now is the time I suppose. It's at 106k, it needs a new timing belt. So I am atleast do that job. A black residue in the coolant seems bad.

I also want the idiot light off to pass emissions. I can not legally operate this vehicle on the roads with that light on.

So here is a disconnect. Once I cleaned the egr valve and the passages on the valve and the passage on the head(?) just under the valve, the rough idle has gone away. The car starts easily and has a very nice idle. Not low, not high and no shaking. I have not had it on the road for a multi-day drive after the valve adjustment due to the registration being expired. Maybe I'll try a couple laps around the block.

This one had slightly tight intake valves. #4 was super tight, this one just tight on the low end of spec.
OK, will do.

Will do a warm, wet compression test.

Thanks. And it's never too late. My bachelors degree was mechanical. You can damn near anything with a mechanical engineering degree. It's rather broad.

You aren't a horrible teacher. It's been rather fun learning from you. The short of it is, people think different. Part of the challenge is getting on the same page to effectively communicate. You don't spoon feed and I enjoy that. You've presented enough information to get the wheels spinning and start the thinking process.

The mid is a terrible thing.

So, I guess here is my plan:
- unplug egr and try to drive it a bit and see if misfire comes back.
- check valve clearance
- get a warm compression test.
- hell, while the plugs are out and engine is warm, check for leaks again.


This thread is long as ****. Makes my brain hurt. Let me see if I can make some progress.

ezone

--Normal my ***.
Right. Should be coolant only. Since oil floats to the top, it collects in the reservoir.

-- I noticed the smell of radiator fluid.
--Overflow tank full?
When the head gasket allows combustion leakage into the cooling system, it pushes coolant out until the combustion gases can pass into the top tank of the radiator and out thru the pressure relief cap. So yes, it may fill the reservoir up to a point, and may overflow the reservoir before reaching that point.
At the same time, the heater core gets an airlock, heat output goes way down, especially at idle or low engine RPMs.
An overheat can easily occur due to loss of coolant from the radiator. These don't have much reserve cooling capacity.

--total of 200-300 miles over 8 months
-- CEL and misfire/egr codes
All short trip driving will "load it up", cause tons of carbon, foul plugs. If these miles were done in a few long trips, plug fouling shouldn't be a problem. (The porcelain of the plugs needs to reach its operating temperature to burn deposits off.) Also, a startup and shutoff CAN foul plugs in a hurry, like moving the car 10 feet and shut it off. Sometimes bad enough to flood it out and cause a no start due to fuel washdown of the cylinder walls (oil film washed away resulting in compression loss, and a no start.)
EGR collects carbon no matter what (it IS exhaust gas recirculation), and periodic cleaning is maintenance. How rapidly it collects has a lot to do with fuel quality and driving habits. Some people need the service every 40k, some can go seemingly forever.

-- I let it run until the blue smoke cleared
Should be cleared of oil once the smoke is gone and the engine has run for a few minutes.

-- most certainly under load.
Test my EGR theory.
Seafoam can't touch the EGR passages, and you disturbing the EGR may knock chunks loose to get into the rest of the engine.

--A black residue in the coolant seems bad.
How much oil is collecting in the reservoir? Has it not collected any more, or does it keep accumulating? I'm still thinking head gasket, that's the most likely breach. Coupled with the other indicators of head gasket. I have looked in service info, no good data to confirm my theory. If the pressure passage to the head is near #4, that could explain the white ash on that plug at the same time.
Oil pressure > coolant pressure, so oil enters coolant while running if there is a breach. If it takes a lot of pressure to cross the breach, it may be a one-way check valve since coolant pressure is limited to about 15 psi.

-- not legally operate this vehicle on the roads with that light on.
Sure you can. Your problem comes in when it needs to pass a test.
Swap tags with your other car. No problem unless you get pulled over.
I drove for 6 months on an expired sticker without knowing it. LOL

--not had it on the road for a multi-day drive
--couple laps around the block
If you gotta have an emiss. test right away, the OBD monitors must have most of them ran and passed, and it takes some trip cycles to do this after every time the codes get cleared. Hot laps around the block won't be enough driving.

--#4 was super tight
But no leakage, no harm.
There's always the possibility of carbon causing valve leakage on #3 too. All we know is there is leakage, we don't know why.

--And it's never too late
Automotive technology requires the most use of major science and physics principles of any profession I know of. And tremendous personal investment. Well, to be at the level that I am at, anyway. Any schmo with a shoebox full of tools can call himself a mechanic and can hang brakes and change oil. The field is constantly changing. If I stop learning, I am done.

--been rather fun learning
--don't spoon feed
--start the thinking process

Well, I don't handle compliments very well, but TYVM. I'm doing something good, I guess. When I try to teach the rookies in the shop, I try to get them to answer their questions from the knowledge they already have. I get really frustrated really quick. Then I just lose my cool when they act like precious snowflakes with entitlement issues. Damn kids, get off my lawn.


--people think different
Engineers think pretty much alike. Dad is one. Mechanical, I believe.

-- here is my plan
If the goal is to keep the light off for now, I think I would disconnect the EGR and see if the misfires go away. Then clean out the EGR plate if that takes care of it. Plate is sandwiched between the intake manifold and the head. Lots of work.

LOL@longass thread. Yeah, I can't find info either.

fsckewe

Will do.

The black residue slowly accumulated to a point where I can not tell if it is getting worse. At first it was a little, now the reservoir is completely coated. I guess I could take it out, clean it and see how fast it comes back.

Ah right, all those sensors need to reset/relearn.

You are doing good. My grandmother always said patience is a virtue; it's supposed to be hard, else it wouldn't be a virtue.

The near-term plan is to get the misfire to stop. If the egr passage clogging is the source, then great. The variance between #2/#3 and #1/#4 has me concerned. Oil in the coolant reservoir has me concerned.

I need to do a timing belt change, water pump/tensioner inspection soon. If I throw in an egr passage cleaning, changing the head gasket doesn't sound so bad. Yeah it's a lot of work.

fsckewe

That is an interesting concept that I have thought about. Oil pressure is way higher than coolant. But, you always hear about coolant in the oil, or smoke from the exhaust as the tell-tale blown HG signs. I suppose because the coolant gets into the cylinder easy.

But as you have said, what are the oil passage routes and is it even possible for oil to get into the coolant from a blown HG. Will look at some diagrams to feed my curiosity.

P.S. I think I know why the thread is so long... posts like this. I like to theorize and discuss more than doing the actual work. LOL.

ezone

Yes, it is absolutely possible. My question was "how close is the oil pressure passage to the cylinder that fouled the plug." There is only one pressurized passage, the rest are returns. It probably feeds oil through one of the head bolt holes.

There are MANY different ways a head gasket can fail.
(Well, a limited number, but far more than one. Rookies get hung up on only one or two failure modes. False.)
Several different areas that have to be kept separated by one gasket, between two dissimilar metals with different thermal expansion characteristics, and remain sealed over a wide variety of temperatures and pressures.
Failure does not have to mean an open hole between any two areas, nor does it have to be failed at all times. Intermittent leaks due to temperatures are common as a beginning stage of failure.
An external leak/seep is still a failure.

fsckewe

Got ya. Will have to look that one up in a schematic.

Yes, I see. Although, I believe the head and block are both aluminium. Regardless, I would agree what you said mostly holds true. Even being similar materials, casting and machining techniques and change metals significantly. Aside from the fact that the thermal expansion coefficient for aluminium is crazy, let alone Al alloys. i.e. Aluminum vs Copper single strand wiring in home branch circuits. But I digress.

I think that probably describes my situation.

At any rate, I've got some work to do. Will test your egr theory. Will probably take a couple days of driving to see if the misfire returns.

ezone

I did a quick look on the Honda site and didn't see it. It's more out of curiosity than anything.
Also, how close is that oil passage to any coolant area?

Once the Aluminum head is overheated, it warps. Usually lifts in the middle. Head gasket can't seal after that. Head will not unwarp on its own. A really good machine shop could "bake" it on a flat plate to straighten it before machining the flat surface true again.

Cyl Head warpage max .002"/.05mm

Also during an overheat, the Al expansion tends to squash the gasket, and it can't seal properly again.
TTY (torque to yield) headbolts in an application like this can reduce the tendency to squash the gasket, since the bolts are tightened to the plastic range and they stay there. Withstands just a little more heat before damage occurs, but then the heads still warp.
This engine has ordinary head bolts.


Your block is cast Iron. Stick a magnet to it.
Head is cast Aluminum.
Head gasket is MLS (Multi-Layer Steel). They don't burn through easily like older style composite gaskets.



Back to another post:
--Once I cleaned the egr valve
Was the valve stuck open? If it was, that explains why it had crappy idle.

fsckewe

Yes, ordinary bolts. I'm not certain I follow: are you saying these TTY bolts would fail/deform before the head would warp? Interesting. It seems like a logical thing to engineer a failure mode that would prevent the head from taking too much heat and warping. Not certain at my currently level of ignorance how that would happen though.

Pretty certain it is an aluminium block with ferrous cylinder sleeves. For two summers during school in 1999 and 2000 I worked at the Honda engine plant in Ohio. I've seen, touched, lifted by hand, bare engine blocks. They are light and Al. I have witnessed the magic of turning aluminium ingots into engine blocks. OK, I'll stop now. You still have dissimilar metals when you throw a mutlilayer steel gasket in there.

I honestly don't think I checked/noticed. I unbolted it and started examining it. I do remember that it was fairly fouled up with carbon deposits. As were the passages on the egr and the passages where it mounts. I cleaned the valve and passages on the housing very well. I admittedly did a half-assed job on the passages where it mounts.

ezone

TTY bolts are installed and tightened until they stretch (plastic range). The plastic range allows changes in length of the bolt without losing its clamping force. The stretch can keep a more constant clamping force applied to the head, so the clamping is more consistent as the head grows and shrinks.

When normal bolts are used and torqued to a spec, they limit growth movement upward (in the case of this cylinder head) to the height of the bolt heads. The clamping force increases as the head grows, and since upward movement is limited by the bolts that have no "give", the expansion forces the head against the block instead, squashing the head gasket far more than its design intent allowed.

When an engine overheats (severe), the majority of the heat is contained within the cylinder head area since it contains the combustion chambers. When coolant is lost, the head empties long before the block does. The head warps, regular bolts now stretch. (In a severe overheat, TTY bolts won't save the head either.) Rings lose their spring tension due to heat too.

A warped head is not only warped on the bottom, it is warped on the top too. This puts the camshaft (OHC) in a bind since the cam journals are also warped out of alignment, the cam can snap or shatter.
"Baking" a warped head back into alignment reduces stress on the camshaft.
Taking a warped head and merely planing the bottom of the head flat again leaves the cam in a bind to cause problems later on.

Well, isn't that cool!
Dammit, now you got me thinking about it. I'll certainly admit that I suffer from CRS. I see so many different variations I can't keep anything straight without seeing it in front of me. You are probably correct, but I still think I remember it being Fe.
....maybe I have had threads galled on the alt bracket/block on this engine? I know it has happened on one engine or another. Damn.

The head gasket doesn't expand much. It's darn thin compared to the chunks of metal that it seals.

Not much carbon collects at the valve, it stays hot when it's open, along with its passages immediately close. So you barely scratched the surface.
The vast majority of the carbon collects in the passages downstream from the EGR valve.
The temperature drop that occurs at the orifices in the intake runners causes the carbon to (precipitate out?) build up there first, (hot exh. under pressure vs. cool intake manifold under a vacuum, through an orifice about 3/16"), plus the entire set of passages will hold a LOT of carbon.
Most of the time, the holes eventually clog shut, but not equally nor at the same time.
While the EGR is operating (partial throttle, warm engine, with road speed) the clogged ports don't pass exhaust gases, and the open ports get all of the exhaust that was intended to be evenly distributed to all cylinders. Those are the cylinders that misfire, not the ones with clogged ports.

Fuel and ignition timing are mapped differently when EGR is operating, but the model cannot account for a partial loss of EGR flow, or a loss of EGR flow to only some cylinders. This can lead to pinging, preignition, detonation (all are fuel burning out of control), and fuel trim lean codes because the computer can only see that the EGR valve must be flowing because its position sensor says so. If the engine is equipped with a knock sensor, timing advance gets backed off to stop the ping and you never hear it in the car......(Computers depend on the base model operating as designed, but they are constantly getting smarter these days.)

EGR is used to reduce combustion temps (NOx forms at high combustion temps) by adding an inert gas to the combustion chamber. This temp drop allows timing to be advanced more aggressively without ping, spark knock, or detonation, -- and fuel delivery is reduced to account for less fresh air in the combustion chamber.
EGR is used to reduce pumping losses and gain fuel efficiency by allowing the throttle blade to be open farther, reducing the manifold vacuum---the engine has to work to create that manifold vacuum. Less work, less parasitic loss.

Am I still making sense? Does this still make sense?
Crap, I made a long post again.

fsckewe

Are you sure you don't mean elastic, as in elastic deformation. Elastic deformations are recoverable(to an extent) where as plastic deformations are not recoverable(permanent.) The plastic region of the stress-strain curve no longer has a linear stress-strain relationship (i.e. small increases in stress = larggggge increases in strain, strain hardening, necking, etc.) I would think you would want the head bolts to grow and contract slightly while keeping their ductility. Passing the yield strength of a material is usually not desired(usually!)

But they are called torque to YIELD bolts. I'm slightly confused at the concept here. Plastic deformation has just always been a dirty word to me.

This sound like these bolts simply are not ductile. Which I suppose is a good thing. The bolts would fail before the engine turns into a pressure bomb. But I suppose the gasket would go first.

Makes sense.

It's aluminium.

I see. Yes, you are still making sense. Very interesting and very informative. Thanks.

ezone

Hey, I'm not the one that dreamed it up.
I've been around manufacturers using them since at least the early 90s, they seemed like a tremendous improvement, and even better when MLS gaskets were used....at least with the products I was working with at the time, durability went up. Instead of toasting a head gasket at an overheat, now the package withstood a whole lot more heat without failure. But hot enough to warp a head is still hot enough to warp a head, no matter what fasteners or gaskets were used.

I'm not the engineer here, I'm just a dumb mechanic.


Elastic....?
Not positive, now that you mention it. "Plastic" range is the term I always see used in descriptions. Never pondered the differences. Maybe both can apply. They are usually darn close to the deformation limits. Some may be designed to be more stressed than others.
Different engineers do things differently.

Some mfr's using TTY head bolts say one time use only, throw away and buy another set.
Other mfr's give various measurements to see if theirs are stretched beyond reuse. Reuse if possible.
The 8th gen Civics that get cracked blocks have both measurements to make and different tightening specs depending on whether or not the TTY head bolts are being reused.
So it depends, I guess.

As for how much they may move while in use, how much can a chunk of somewhat hollow 3-4" thick cast aluminum grow when expected temps range from -50 to about 220F?

Man, that's bugging me now. I have to check this on the next one I see.....if I can remember to.
Sometimes I remember yesterday as if it just happened yesterday.

fsckewe

Good discussion nonetheless.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8...5mediumbc5.jpg
I *think* this is a D17. Notice the dissimilar metals if you look at the area between the cylinders? Ferrous sleeves in an aluminium block.

http://www.clockwisemotion.co.uk/ima...onversions.jpg
This is a k20, but the difference in metals if highly visible.

Trust me on this one. I watched the engines being made. Hell I worked on an aluminium casting machine for a couple of days before they moved me to another job. That job was repairing porosity defects. It was some sort of two part epoxy that was used to fill holes under a certain size on the block deck. A common area of defects occurred around the sleeve where the two metals met.

Edit:
Here is better one: http://www.gotrice.com/prelude/pics/block/engine3.jpg
And another good one: http://image.hondatuningmagazine.com...gine_block.jpg

OK, I need to get some work done today!

ezone

Oh I believe you, it just bugs me that I can't remember sh*t sometimes. 30+ years of this makes for blurred memories.
I can't even remember if I wiped my a** or washed my hands a minute ago. (*wipes hands on shirt and scratches butt*)
And it bugs me that I write in such a definite, "I know wtf I'm talking about" style sometimes. LOL. Most of the time I do, but oh well.

fsckewe

Yes, but you aren't convinced. The next time a civic comes I bet you check the block, won't you?

So, a little update. Unplugged the egr connector and went for a 25 minute/20 mile drive. Check it when I get home, only the temp P1491 egr code. Going to eat dinner, then drive it some more.

You are going to love this....so while the engine is hot I figure I'll check the compression again.

#1 220 psi
#2 210
#3 210
#4.... POP


That's right. The rubber hose had a blowout. Scared the **** out of me. This was a fresh out of the box, used twice setup. And pop.

More driving to see if misfire comes back. Oh, also I'm going to take the coolant reservoir off and take a photo and see what you think.

ezone

You bet I will. I gotta see it for myself. I might need to see it again later when I forget this all over again too!

EGR code is as expected, so far so good. Drive it until you are convinced that the misfires are not going to happen.

ROFL, I hope it has a warranty. Boy, whatever brand you are using is having a lousy batting average.
On the plus side, the compression looks excellent so far. Well within the 10% difference limit. I'm not going to worry about 10 psi difference if the last cyl is as good...and it probably will be.

Feel the residue, does it feel like oil? Wash out the reservoir since you have it off. Maybe see how much collects again later on.

fsckewe

hahahah!

Drove it again for another 20 minutes ~10 miles. Still only egr code, as to be expected. I want to give it 2 or 3 more drives to be convinced. Plus, all sensors are not giving a ready status quite yet.

The gauge was at ~230psi and stopping. Recall, this is the cylinder with white ashy buildup on the plug. Probably has more carbon than the other cylinders and likely it is a little higher.

The tester is a set rented from a parts store. I have one coming in the mail, so the one that had a blow-out is going back to the store. You get what you pay for I guess.
It is thick....thicker than oil and sticky. Like tape residue. It doesn't feel like oil. Might this be from hoses breaking down? Soaking now to try and clean it out.

Here are some images:
#1 coolant from reservoir - it is translucent, and on the dark side. I doubt it has ever been flushed and replaced, so not bad considering that.

#2 Reservoir held up to light - completely black. You see see the white part that is see thru where it mounts in the bottom left for comparison. Wife had taken it to the dealer for this and was told this was normal. hmmm. I'm skeptic.

#3 inside of reservoir - sticky, thick residue. You can see where I took a swipe with my finger.

ezone

All monitors won't pass because of the EGR code. Ignore the monitors for now unless there was a problem with passing them before this.
Google what a "drive cycle" is. Look at post #2 here, it's real similar to what you would need to do after the immediate problem is solved: http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7261

Quite possible. Since you aren't having misfires, I'm not worried about compression now.

Yep. I make my living with the tools I buy, so I buy the best I can afford.

Ok, I looked as best as I can at the pics.
Doesn't look nearly like what I had imagined from your posted descriptions.

Color of coolant looks average for non-Honda green. Hondas long life coolant was dark green, and the current Honda pre-mix is blue. No matter at this point. If it doesn't stink (you would know right away if it does, the old man called the smell "wolf *****"), it probably got changed at some point in the cars life.

In short: If there was not a thick layer of oil sitting on top of the coolant in the reservoir, then the residue stuck to the sides of the bottle is pretty average.
It happens with age and miles.
Yes, it coats the bottle and makes it hard to see through.
I have ideas of what it really is, but never have heard a solid explanation of it.
But it happens to many/most of the cars in time.
Oil would float on top of the coolant. It should have been obvious if it was there. If it was there long enough, it would be thick like gear lube, and probably dark brown or black.

Good luck cleaning that crap out, let me know if you find something that works. (I think the residue may be the sealant that was put in at the factory.)

So, I'm guessing it is no longer an issue there, and you may be down to cleaning the EGR and replacing one plug every 75k. And add a quart of oil every so often.


EGR:






Plate #7 contains the EGR passages that clog, and I'd replace the gasket #8. I wouldn't worry about the silicone rubber seals for the plastic manifold, they should still be pliable.
The injectors also sit in this plate. If you are careful, all 4 could lift out of the plate together and remain attached to the fuel rail. If not, get new upper seals for the injectors.
You may want new bottom seals for the injectors to avoid vacuum leaks.

The EGR passage enters this plate at the hole where the #8 line is pointing near. Not the bolt hole.





There are EGR passages within the cylinder head too, but I doubt they are an issue. The vast majority of the problems are contained within the cast piece #7 in the first pic. Still won't hurt to make sure the passage between the EGR valve and the intake is clear and flows plenty of volume.


Git to scraping and cleaning.
Elbow grease.
Screwdrivers, picks, drill bits, whatever it takes to get the carbon buildup cleaned out. I have a carbide burr set I use on some. The carbon can be really tough, and (at work) I don't have time to let it soak in any cleaners overnight.
Also: Messy.

fsckewe

Definitely not gear lube consistency. And no floating oil. I'll need the luck.

I can work with that.

Thank you for the diagrams and pointers. Will be helpful. See you in a couple of dayssssss.

green01civic

#7 is the thermostat housing? There are no EGR passages through it. There is an EGR passage through the water pump housing, though.

ezone

No. Look at BOTH of the linked pics and associate the item numbers logically. #7 in the FIRST pic has nothing to do with the thermostat.

Water pump housing? WTF? The pump is on the other end of the engine. We ain't dealing with that right now.

fsckewe

So, I got everything unhooked, depressure-ized and unhosed but am having problems getting the 3 bolts on the bottom of the intake off. This car spent 5 years in the midwest, as I'm sure you know ezone, and has some salt corrosion on most of the bolts/nuts.

The 3 bolts on the bottom of the intake are a pain in the ***. One is behind the oil filter.... god I hate the location of the oil filter on this car. So I can't get to them very well. I have the car on jack stands and can get underneath the car fine, but can't really get up in there with a wrench or socket. Well, I can kind of get to them, but they are corroded and tough to get some torque on them.

Any tricks? Or just suck it up and stop being a *****.

ezone

I know I can get the manifold away from the head with that plate still attached to it.
2 lower studs keep the plate and manifold together.

Pull the whole manifold with the plate attached, then separate them on the bench. Yeah it's a PITA like that.

fsckewe

hmmm... so on my engine(D17A2) there are two nuts and one bolt along the top, two bolts and 3 nuts along the bottom. The three nuts are the issue.

OK, so looking at the diagram in my Honda Service Manual, I think the one bolt at the top and two of the nuts on the bottom are the ones that keep the injector plate and manifold together, so those are staying for now. Looks like the two nuts(#27) that go on #24 and the bolt that goes behind the throttle body in your image.

I think I understand it now. Thanks for the images. Going to have another go at it.

ezone

Remember, I see all sorts of different cars and I darn near have to SEE what is going on to remember what is needed. Sorry.

I have enough different tools that if I can SEE a bolt, I can build something to reach it.

Seems like several different 12mm wrenches can work the nuts loose enough to turn with my fingers, and take out with a magnet. Swivel sockets may get the bolts out.

green01civic

Fair enough, #7 in the first pic indeed.

There is an EGR passage from the EGR valve through to #7 in the first pic via #8 in the second pic...