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Hey everyone,

This is my first post on this site and i look forward to everyones comments.

I have a 2002 Civic SIR (SI in USA). It's the 3 door Hatchback. It currently has 102,000kms and is in good condition. I just bought it a couple months ago and put a fair bit of stereo equipment in it. Nothing drastic, i'll list what i got at the bottom.

A month ago (roughly a month after stereo install) I got a check engine light on. I scanned the car and got the following:

P1298 - Electronic Load Detector (ELD)
P1259 - VTEC system circuit fault -This was a one time issue which the engine went into safe mode, limiting to 4000rpms. I currently dont have this problem, it solved it's self.
P0138 - 02sensor
P0139 - 02sensor

Now... after i got these codes (ignoring the VTEC issue) i figured i'd replace the 02 sensors. Well after $500 and installing the upstream 02sensor (the downstream was too difficult with the conventional tools i have), the codes just returned. Thats when i started looking into the ELD.

I've read alot about the ELD and from what i understand, it's part of the fuse box. My basic question is... should i just replace the fuse box for $450? (dealership part). Are these ELD's something that just break down? Or does this seem to be more of a stereo equipment issue... if so it sounds like i'll just have to live with it... as all other "bypass" solutions sound to sketchy. Does anyone know where i can get a new fuse box, aside from dealership, for cheap? Any online stores?

Any opinions and comments are greatly appreciated!


Stereo:
Pioneer Z120BT Double DIN
Focal 165 VR3 - three way
Helix H400- 400watts - powering front end
Focal FP2.150 - 400 Watt - powering woofer
12" Nakamichi Sub

Battery is stock size, but brand new. There is also a CAPacitor for the stereo. It shows it's gettin above 13 Watts when car is running.

 
Rep Power: 235

Get an O2 sensor wrench, it's like $7-10.

The ELD crapping out happens all the time when you add equipment to these cars AND they are known to be weak in these cars.

The ELD by itself is part # 38255-S5A-003. My copy of the TSB says ALL Civics 01-05 but, yours might not be the same (hatch) so take it to the dealership and compare before you buy. It's about $30. Also, be aware there are 2 places the connector can go into when plugging the ELD back in, only 1 of which is the right one.

 
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Hey LazLong,

Thanks for the response!

I called Honda with the part you provided me. They do have it for $44 however they said it doesnt fit all civics 01-05, but only specific models. I asked for them to find me an equivalent model for the SIR. They said i'd have to buy the whole fuse box for $450. Any other suggestions?

I've found a complete fuse box from a wrecker for $100, however how do i know that the ELD is working fine? Anyway of testing it? Is it worth the gamble?

Thanks!

ps.... thanks for the heads up on the 02 wrench... i knew about it and will be purchaing one, i just didnt have one on hand.

 
Rep Power: 235

Try searching local craigslist for somebody parting one or try here: http://www.allofcraigs.com/

Nationwide salvage listings: http://www.car-part.com/

 
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Hey, I've found a used fuse box for $100 however... is it worth it? Its a big gamble on something i cant test? or can i? does anyone know? I'd rather buy a new one, knowing it'll work... and if not it gets returned.

 
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A new one here is only $82: http://www.hondapartscheap.com/south...t=0&quantity=0

The dealer is trying to rip you off.

 
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Hey Again,

I checked out that site. I was stoked that i could get the part cheap! However, after talking directly to the company... the part number differs from what Honda canada is giving me. Apparently a big problem is that 38250-S5T-A02 may or may not have Daylight Running Lights? :s Apparently this part is for a USA vehicle... and Honda didnt make it mandatory for DRL untill 2009, while it's been mandatory in Canada for awhile.

So i got the actual part number for the replacement for my vehicle, 38200-S5T-A01, however hondapartscheap.com only has 38200-S5T-A02. It's for a 2002 Honda SI with Side SRS (which mine doesnt have.. from what i know).

So which part will work for me? :s Keep in mind, none of these parts are returnable.

Thanks!

 
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Hello all,

First-time user here looking for answers...looking forward to any and all responses.

I recently purchased a 2003 Honda Civic si with 85k miles and a salvage title. After a test drive and pre-purchase inspection, to which everything appeared right and tight, I negotiated a good deal and took a chance...

When attempting to get the car registered, I was told by the DMV that it needed an emissions inspection. Upon getting it inspected, my mechanic noted the check engine light appeared to be broken (all gauges illuminated in the ignition 'II' position EXCEPT the check engine light). He ran an OBD and it threw the following codes:

P1298 (Electronic Load Detector)
p1166 (Oxygen Sensor, Pre-cat)

After a wild goose chase in attempting to find a bulb for the check engine light on the instrument cluster, (the Honda dealership wanted me to buy a brand new instrument cluster since they didn't know exactly where the check engine light bulb was) I ended up at my trusted local boutique garage specializing in anything Honda. They discovered that the scum bag who sold me the vehicle obstructed the check engine gauge with a piece of electrical tape. BUYERS BEWARE OF THIS TYPE OF UNSCRUPULOUS SALES TACTIC! Anyhow, they quoted me about $750 to fix both issues...

I was planning on changing BOTH oxygen sensors myself as I've read that it's better to replace them in pairs anyways. However, the tech at the shop told me that the SI trim has a different ELD and that I'd have to replace the whole fuse box as opposed to just the ELD sensor as with the EX and LX trims. Is this true? If so, is it something I could do myself once I can locate a replacement fuse box? Where is the best place to find a box? I'm definitely nervous about picking up one from a salvage yard as I have also heard that this is a common issue for the 7th generation civics...

I already went way over budget with the vehicle purchase and thus have quite limited funds. Not to mention, the DMV only gave me 10 days to get it inspected (didn't even give me a license plate) which gives me until Sunday, Merry Christmas to me I guess...

Any help, suggestions, comments, questions are welcome...looking forward to being a part of this web community!


Hope everyone has a blessed holiday!

 
Rep Power: 235

That sucks. Sorry.

If you're short on money then you're gonna have to get a salvage fusebox. Try here: http://www.car-part.com/ for a salvage yard near you. Local guys usually will give you a warranty (usually 7-30 days).

Both are very easy fixes.

Only one bolt holds the fusebox in the dash. Then all you have to do is remember where all the plugs go (there's about 20 in the front and 10 or so in the back). Fusebox is number 7: http://www.hondapartscheap.com/index...%20%28CABIN%29

You can change the O2 sensor with a regular wrench but, it's much much easier with an O2 sensor wrench: http://www.harborfreight.com/3-8-eig...nch-97177.html

O2 sensor is number 17: http://www.hondapartscheap.com/index...%20-%20MUFFLER

 
Rep Power: 285

Welcome to the site and congratulations on the purchase, the Si is a great car.

It's unfortunate that someone tricked you by placing a piece of electrical tape over the light, it's not an entirely uncommon tactic of unscrupulous sellers however. In my opinion, every pre-purchase inspection should include pulling the OBD codes.

The ELD can be replaced for $20-30, order this part 38255-S5A-003, it's a common part to many Hondas. You'll find instructions on how to replace it in the service manual, and I've linked you to a digital copy below.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31251643/H...Service-Manual

 
Rep Power: 235

Hell, I thought they only sold the ELD separate on certain models. Do they sell it separate on all Honda models?

 
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with the o2 sensor showing up aswel is there as chance that it could be bad wiring to the o2 sensor with 2 codes for it as there is 4 wires going to the o2 sensor the wiring going to it might be bad the eld will show up as a check if the wiring is damaged somewhere so be worth checking that out before you go replacing parts.

 
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So I don't have to replace the whole fuse box just because it's an SI? I was told that I had to since it wasn't just the ELD 'sensor' like on the EX and LX...

The ELD is located on the fuse box in the engine compartment not beneath the dash as I understand it, no? Either way, I'm glad to know these are easy fixes...

I really do appreciate the feedback and help with the weblinks guys...will let you know how things turn out.

 
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Ummm, dude? The ELD is in the engine compartment fusebox. Not the dash fusebox.

At least all the US cars are this way....I can't see Canada being any different.

 
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I'm going to check the wiring tomorrow morning when I have some daylight. I did think about that as well based on the two codes coming up and one potentially precluding the other. However, I'm inclined to think the car definitely needs some type of work/parts replaced since the guy who sold it to me deliberately concealed the check engine light...I'm just really hoping there aren't any other electrical/wiring issues with the car...

The car did have an aftermarket sound system installed including two subwoofers (they've since been removed as result of negotiating the price, lol). Could this have been the reason the ELD was cooked?

 
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highly doubtful the subs had anything to do with the eld. eld is more to do with engine systems fed from ecu. but its possible i guess. more likely to be wiring to o2 sensor as the sensor is straight into exhaust if the wiring isnt held in the right way it could easily get melted off of the exhaust or just that the wiring is bad.

 
Rep Power: 518

Here is a copy of the ELD bulletin. I don't have access to Canadian info though.


http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/th...2_tsb_1298.pdf

I just can't see it being any different, even for a 3 door or Canada. The ELD unit alone ought to be the same for all the cars of that series (in my mind).

Please note also that the ELD code does not turn on the CEL in most of the cars here, so you might consider just fixing the O2 sensor problems first and see what happens.

 
Rep Power: 235

Whoops! Don't know what I was thinking.

@ voodoostrat: That ELD is the exact same as the other Civic models. The engine bay fusebox just un-clips on the sides. Then you un-clip the ELD connector on the bottom (back) of the fusebox. Then unscrew the 2 screws and remove the bus-bar to expose the ELD. The bus-bar is literally a small metal bar, you'll see it. *Make sure to dis-connect the battery first.

Subs may have had something to do with it. Just make sure the ends of the power wire(s) aren't exposed. If you don't know or can't tell which wire is which then just tape all of them.

P1166 is the heater circuit malfunction. There are 2 outcomes- 1. ECM/PCM needs to be updated (less likely) or 2. A short in one of the wires (more likely).

Which leads to my next point- The heater circuit malfunction may be the cause of the ELD malfunction. I would try to fix the sensor issue first. Look for loose/burnt/bad wires/connections first then go to Mindbomber's link and follow the diagnostic for P1166.

 
Rep Power: 285

The ELD frequently needs to be replaced, the aftermarket sound system was not the cause in my opinion..

 
Rep Power: 235

Ehhh... speak for yourself. Had the car for 4 years now and the only time I got the ELD code I found that I had plugged the connector into the blank port next to the right one. That's how I found out about that. Of course, it was AFTER I had bought a new ELD. So, yeah, I've had a brand new ELD sitting in the bin of Civic parts for a couple of years now. Watch it go bad since I said something. lol

 
Rep Power: 285

Hey, I'm the Canadian here, I'm the one who's supposed to be saying eh.

By frequently, I don't mean lots of Honda owners need to replace it at some point in the vehicles life cycle. Just search the code and see how many ELD threads pop up..

 
Rep Power: 518

US PCM is not flashable/updateable. I would think Canada is the same.

ELD is only used by the PCM to control the charging based on usage/demand. I seriously doubt any stereo can kill it, they die a natural death. They all do it.

ELD has nothing to do with the O2 code.

Use only OEM O2 sensors from NTK or DENSO (check who made the original part, should be stamped into the metal somewhere). The correct resistance of the O2 heater is critical for keeping the light off, and there can be different specs for various versions of the car.
Aftermarkets are too iffy for me to use.....but if you look hard at the parts stores, I have seen some OEM sensors there. Someone has to be willing to look for them though.
Don't use Bosch...Please, just don't.

The P1259 is most often caused by super low oil level. Could be several other things, but I see that quite often.

 
Rep Power: 235

If the "US PCM is not flashable/updateable" why does the service manual say "update or replace with a known/good one" about eleventy million times?

 
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I guess it is a standard thing to print, but they are not reflashable (can't install new software at the dealer level).

To get updated programming (and there would probably be bulletins about whatever any update fixed) it has to be replaced. I have never seen anything like that for those Civics.

I HAVE seen it with all the V6 trans second gear recalls that got transmissions replaced, they got an updated PCM installed because they were not reflashable.

 
Rep Power: 518

Something else......

"update" If possible....

"OR" Note the OR word there.....

"replace with a known good unit"
has been a common phrase forever. Some might call it "swaptronics". It is tough to actually diagnose a bad control unit directly with most of their failures. All you can do is verify that the inputs and outputs are proper, then make a conclusion that the unit must be bad since everything else is good... Sometimes you get to recheck everything because it still doesn't work. Yeah, that happens to me too, on occasion.


01 Civic had a PCM recall because of a (my understanding is a) software bug, the PCMs got replaced because they are not able to be reprogrammed. I assume that the entire model run up to 05 uses similar PCMs, and that is the only software issue I know of for those cars.

03 Hybrid Civic had the first reflashable PCM among US Civics AFAIK.

 
Rep Power: 235

So, you're saying that the "update " at the dealer is a straight up scam? What gets programmed to sync them when the immobilizer or ECM/PCM has to replaced?

Also, it says "update the ECM/PCM if it doesn't have the latest software", not "if possible".

 
Rep Power: 518

Remember, this reflash stuff applies to cars other than those in this thread. Not the 02 and 03 Civics in this thread.

Reflashing or reprogramming or updating the PCM (or any control unit) means to upload new software into it. All the terms seem to be used interchangeably to mean the same thing.

Newer Hondas' control units do not come to us "blank" (yet), meaning they come with software to operate whatever they control, BUT it could be loaded with an older software version-- so we still need to check new units and update them if possible though.
(Ever buy a new laptop/desktop computer? How many MS updates do you have to do to one before it is current? I just did a new laptop setup 2 days ago, MS alone had like 70 or so updates for it. Make sense yet?)
Some other manufacturers use blank unprogrammed control units that can't be used at all until they are loaded with their respective software. I expect Honda will do the same thing in the near future.

No scam. They (the engineers) DO solve some interesting and very real problems using software nowadays.

Bulletins are released about the specific problems* that the new software fixes, and they are very specific issues on specific cars.
Like I said in an earlier post, before Honda started using reprogrammable control units, the only way they had to fix software bugs was to replace the PCM (or ECM or TCM, or whatever other control unit had the software issues).

SRS has had software updates on some of Hondas cars.
IMA software updates on Hybrids for battery and motor controllers.

In fact, some of the PCMs use separate processors for the engine and trans. We have some software updates that have to be applied separately for the engine and trans, even though the two units are combined in the same PCM.

Engine and transmission operating software is not something that is able to be changed at the dealer level in the specific Civics in question in this thread. IIRC, this thread started with an 02 in the first post, then someone chimed in with an 03. These PCMs cannot be reflashed with new engine operating software.

We are not allowed to, nor do they give us the tools for altering any software. You guys would have to go to the aftermarket for that.

There are parameters we can change in only a few things, like tire pressure warning thresholds in Hondas' TPMS for example.
Other manufacturers allow changes for different tire sizes and gear ratios, and some other things. We don't get that though. Everyone does things a little different.

Remember the "OR" in the statement? If you can't do one**, then you have to do the other. That's all it means.
Yeah, it sort of bugs me that they tell you to do something that isn't possible, but I didn't write the manuals.


Programming the immobilizer is different from loading new engine or trans software. Different area of the PCM (on those that use the PCM as the Immobi controller, there were versions that have the immobi controller elsewhere too, like these Civics with type 3 Immobilizer). The immobi portion of the unit has to learn the ID of the transponder chip inside the head of the key(s). Again, it is not the same as a software reflash. (Don't get all technical on me, I know the methods appear to be the same.)
Example: The Odyssey vans that got the trans and the PCM replaced under the 2nd gear recalls: The PCM could not be reflashed with engine and trans software, that is why they had to be replaced. When we did that, we had to use the HDS scanner to extract the Immobilizer key transponder ID data from the old PCM and load it into the new PCM. OR get all the keys from the owner and program them separately. We ended up asking for all the keys before starting the jobs because extracting the key data wasn't 100% reliable.




*I have asked repeatedly about this. Most of the bulletins we get about reflashing tell about like one specific fix, or maybe a couple. My question was trying to find out if there are other changes made in the software updates that are undocumented to us at the dealership level. Haven't got a good answer that satisfied my curiosity as of yet.

**The only way I have to see if a car really has the latest software in it is to connect the MVCI and have it search all the reprogrammable units on the car. It compares software versions and returns info about which units have new software available.
All current updates include all previous updates, so if a car missed a previous update before, it is now included in the current version.
Kinda like going to the MS windows update site, but without all the options.

HTH

Disclaimer: I am not an engineer, I'm just a lowly, knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, mirror fogging tech. Bottom of the food chain. These answers are being explained as *I* understand them. My opinions are not those of the manufacturer. Etc., etc.

 
Rep Power: 518

More clarifications, now that I'm somewhat awake.....

I should say that there are some updates that there are no bulletins issued for. One example would be the TCC Judder reflash that applies to many of the cars -as per a bulletin-- is also available for some other cars, but without a bulletin specifically addressing it. I have to plug in to find out if the software is available for each separate case..

The replacement PCM goes along with the replacement transmission. Not all of the vehicles affected by the 2nd gear recall got their transmissions and PCMs replaced, some only got an oil jet kit under the recall, others got the trans and PCM job.
Had one of these vans in my bay 20 minutes ago... (Yes, the slave drivers are making me work today. Bah, humbug.) The trans in this van got the oil jet kit for the 2nd gear recall a long time ago.
Today, 150k miles later, it shows up here needing a transmission. It also will get the updated PCM to go along with the trans, if the owner decides to do the job.

 
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Ok guys, thanks a mil once again for all your help...

I replaced both the A/F and H02 sensors on my 03' Civic SI which fixed the P1166 code. However, I still cannot pass inspection since the computer is still throwing the P1298 code (Electronic Load Detector, high voltage).

I want to go ahead and replace the ELD since everything I've read (and seen) online breaks it down to replacing that one stupid piece of plastic in the under-hood fusebox. However, not one parts store in town carry them and Honda didn't really understand what I was talking about until they told me I would need to replace the entire fuse box (!) for my particular vehicle model.

I'm currently awaiting a response from an eBay seller who has genuine Honda Load detectors for cheap. He just has 2 different sizes and I don't know which one would work for the SI...I'm guessing it's the larger one?



I'm going to try and take apart the fuse box to see if I can match up the plug since that seems to be the primary difference between the two sizes.

This video seems very clear and general as to how to change the ELD so why do all the other guys wanting my money tell me I need to replace the whole fuse box?




All help is always appreciated. Hope everyone has a great holiday!

 
Rep Power: 0

Sorry, guess the links didn't come through...

Here are the ELDs I found on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-HONDA-EL...#ht_4506wt_698

And the helpful video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYVWmQE5tDk

Thanks again!