Highest PSI for internals?
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Rep Power: 263 Highest PSI for internals?
If you were to do everything possible besides opening up the engine and replacing internals, what is the highest possible PSI you can run on a daily basis without breaking things? Can you get to 250hp safely in the maximum PSI range?
I'm just curious. I seem to get mixed impressions when it comes to what you can and can't run on stock internals. Additionally, what is it exactly to be worried about when turning up the boost with stock insides?
I'm just curious. I seem to get mixed impressions when it comes to what you can and can't run on stock internals. Additionally, what is it exactly to be worried about when turning up the boost with stock insides?
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This is a question for the turbo guys but from what i've gathered 8-9 psi is good for DD reliability. Rods can/will bend with too much boost, pistons can get ruined, head gaskets can pop (which can also warp your head). there's my 2 cent, i'd listen to what them turbo'd boys have to say.....
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Rep Power: 219 Re: Highest PSI for internals?
if ur gona boost make sure u get arp head studs cuz thats the only insurance + afr gauge wide band .. not a lil shitty light. lol. as for max psi/power .. it depends on the turbo ... if u have a t3/t4 u'll get there with 6 psi .. with a t28 9-10 psi... its really how much power ... and 250 is a lil too much IMO with stock internals and a DD unless you are on a stand alone. other then that .. 200whp is perfectly reliable especially with our plastic intake mani's
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Rep Power: 263 Re: Highest PSI for internals?
if ur gona boost make sure u get arp head studs cuz thats the only insurance + afr gauge wide band .. not a lil shitty light. lol. as for max psi/power .. it depends on the turbo ... if u have a t3/t4 u'll get there with 6 psi .. with a t28 9-10 psi... its really how much power ... and 250 is a lil too much IMO with stock internals and a DD unless you are on a stand alone. other then that .. 200whp is perfectly reliable especially with our plastic intake mani's
Not sure what you mean, if you have a t/3t4 you'll get where? to 250hp with 6psi? and you'll get to 250hp with a t28 on 9 psi? Is that what you mean?
Has anyone broken their intake manifold due to too much pressure?
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Tuning, tuning, tuning, tuning.
As long as the engine is tuned properly, you don't have to worry about any of this. Crankshafts are designed to spin when pressure is applied at the proper point in their rotation cycle (i.e. boost). As long as that pressure is applied at the moment the crankshaft is designed to expect it for that cylinder (i.e. a proper tune), it just makes the crankshaft spin faster and with greater force. This will not harm the engine in any way - AS LONG AS ALL THIS IS HAPPENING AT THE PROPER TIME IN THE ENGINE BLOCK. The key is engine management and tuning. If I went out today and cranked my boost up to 15 psi with my piggyback, there's a good chance I could send one of my nice forged Crower rods through the side of the block.
Like Emjay mentioned, if you were running k-pro on stock internals with ARP head studs, I would say stick a cam in that bitch and crank the boost to 15 psi (as long as your compression is good before the build) and have fun with it. Anything more than that and you're rolling the dice on the stock IM.
Hope this helps. $1000 spent on k-pro is a better upgrade than $1500 spent on new internals if you had to choose between the two.
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No one has cracked a stock IM yet to my knowledge, but I can't imagine a plastic IM will hold up very long to high levels of pressure.
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Rep Power: 219 Re: Highest PSI for internals?
tune tune tune .. and thats why i said if u want 250whp, u go kpro + arp studs because the tune with kpro = way more solid then a piggyback which is only reliable for ~200whp...
Eyger.. it doesn't matter at all how many pounds ur running, its jus psi... its how much power u make ... if i can make 200 @ 6 psi and u make 200 on a smaller turbo with 10psi, then we're both running @200whp, .... who cares if im boosting 6 or u boosting 10... anyway, like Clint said, tune tune tune ... so if u do want 250 make sure u go stand alone, but if u wanted my advice, i would get kpro and tune for around ~220-230whp cuz really, do u know ur tuner will tune u 100% reliably at ~250whp? i bet u don't and thats why it could jus be a timebomb for a stock internal d17 pushing 250 without a really solid tune.
Eyger.. it doesn't matter at all how many pounds ur running, its jus psi... its how much power u make ... if i can make 200 @ 6 psi and u make 200 on a smaller turbo with 10psi, then we're both running @200whp, .... who cares if im boosting 6 or u boosting 10... anyway, like Clint said, tune tune tune ... so if u do want 250 make sure u go stand alone, but if u wanted my advice, i would get kpro and tune for around ~220-230whp cuz really, do u know ur tuner will tune u 100% reliably at ~250whp? i bet u don't and thats why it could jus be a timebomb for a stock internal d17 pushing 250 without a really solid tune.
Last edited by emjay; 07-21-2008 at 10:01 AM.
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Rep Power: 399 Re: Highest PSI for internals?
T3/T4 turbos are larger and typically flow more CFM than smaller T25 turbos. 8 psi on my GT30 (T3-footed turbo) will flow more air than 8 psi on Boiler's old T25 turbo. The hp numbers he put up are just examples and not realistic results.
No one has cracked a stock IM yet to my knowledge, but I can't imagine a plastic IM will hold up very long to high levels of pressure.
No one has cracked a stock IM yet to my knowledge, but I can't imagine a plastic IM will hold up very long to high levels of pressure.
You probably can get away with running 12 psi on stock rods if its tuned REALLY well. ARP studs would be a must. The one who needs to chime in is Andy, I'm sure he's tried pretty hard to blow a stock bottom end with excess pressure.
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Hm, this is all good/funny information. So lets see if I've got this straight:
-Actual PSI is not directly correlated to horsepower produced. I.E, you can run a lower PSI on a turbo that flows more to achieve (in this hypothetical situation) the same horsepower that a higher PSI on a turbo that flows less?
-Reliability is more about the tuning of the system versus the components of the engine. I.E, the inability of a lesser engine management system to correctly control what's going on inside would be a problem for the engine, before the durability of the stock internals themselves are brought to the breaking point?
As for the intake manifold, the real benefit is? The flow of it, rather then the strength?
This is a lot to wrap my head around at once.
I still don't understand how turbos are classified in terms of size and lettering and whatnot.
So here's a good one, if a larger turbo can run a lower PSI and get the same horse as a smaller turbo at a higher PSI, would it be safer for an engine with stock internals to run a larger turbo with lower PSI?
Weird, it's easy to think that a turbo is a simple thing. And really, it is, it just pushes air, but beyond that it seems more intricate then it appears.
-Actual PSI is not directly correlated to horsepower produced. I.E, you can run a lower PSI on a turbo that flows more to achieve (in this hypothetical situation) the same horsepower that a higher PSI on a turbo that flows less?
-Reliability is more about the tuning of the system versus the components of the engine. I.E, the inability of a lesser engine management system to correctly control what's going on inside would be a problem for the engine, before the durability of the stock internals themselves are brought to the breaking point?
As for the intake manifold, the real benefit is? The flow of it, rather then the strength?
This is a lot to wrap my head around at once.
I still don't understand how turbos are classified in terms of size and lettering and whatnot.
So here's a good one, if a larger turbo can run a lower PSI and get the same horse as a smaller turbo at a higher PSI, would it be safer for an engine with stock internals to run a larger turbo with lower PSI?
Weird, it's easy to think that a turbo is a simple thing. And really, it is, it just pushes air, but beyond that it seems more intricate then it appears.
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Rep Power: 219 Re: Highest PSI for internals?
lol again ... its the same thing ... bigger turbo less psi or smaller turbo more psi .. u achieve the same horsepower and that determines how much power the engine can hold... not how much boost. Yes tuning is very important but i mean beyond 250whp its a time bomb on a stock end.
ofcourse the Intake mani is more for flow .. but our d17 is plastic and can crack
and when we say tuning... a standalone tunes way better then a piggy back .. but that doens't mean jus cuz u have a stand alone ur reliable at 250 .. u have to trust ur tuner and its much much more reliable to tune with a standalone then apiggyback system, thats simply it.
Once again .. its the SAME THING to get 200whp with larger or smaller turbo with different psi's ... the only difference, the larger turbo spools slower, it has more potential if u decide to build .. while a smaller turbo is perfect for our d17s ... because it spools quick and gives u great mid range power ... while a big turbo spools slower and gives u that high end power
ofcourse the Intake mani is more for flow .. but our d17 is plastic and can crack
and when we say tuning... a standalone tunes way better then a piggy back .. but that doens't mean jus cuz u have a stand alone ur reliable at 250 .. u have to trust ur tuner and its much much more reliable to tune with a standalone then apiggyback system, thats simply it.
Once again .. its the SAME THING to get 200whp with larger or smaller turbo with different psi's ... the only difference, the larger turbo spools slower, it has more potential if u decide to build .. while a smaller turbo is perfect for our d17s ... because it spools quick and gives u great mid range power ... while a big turbo spools slower and gives u that high end power
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Hm, this is all good/funny information. So lets see if I've got this straight:
-Actual PSI is not directly correlated to horsepower produced. I.E, you can run a lower PSI on a turbo that flows more to achieve (in this hypothetical situation) the same horsepower that a higher PSI on a turbo that flows less?
-Actual PSI is not directly correlated to horsepower produced. I.E, you can run a lower PSI on a turbo that flows more to achieve (in this hypothetical situation) the same horsepower that a higher PSI on a turbo that flows less?
lol again ... its the same thing ... bigger turbo less psi or smaller turbo more psi .. u achieve the same horsepower and that determines how much power the engine can hold... not how much boost. Yes tuning is very important but i mean beyond 250whp its a time bomb on a stock end.
-Reliability is more about the tuning of the system versus the components of the engine. I.E, the inability of a lesser engine management system to correctly control what's going on inside would be a problem for the engine, before the durability of the stock internals themselves are brought to the breaking point?
Hotrod.com Turbo Article
Yes, and strapping one of them on a car that was never designed for it complicates things even more!
You really should go buy this book:
Corky Bell's Maximum Boost
Last edited by speedfoos; 07-22-2008 at 03:20 AM. Reason: Cuz of my country grammah G!
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^seriously I do. I think that'll be a birthday present to myself.
At least I feel like I'm learning something, which is good.
I should just re name this thread to the "Eyger's crash course in turbos thread"
Here's another one, at what point is it necessary to ditch the returnless fuel system? Can you reliably achieve 200 from the stock fuel system?
At least I feel like I'm learning something, which is good.
I should just re name this thread to the "Eyger's crash course in turbos thread"
Here's another one, at what point is it necessary to ditch the returnless fuel system? Can you reliably achieve 200 from the stock fuel system?
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You can do 200whp all day long on the stock returnless system if you upgrade the fuel pump. I know Edwin ran (is still running?) the stock pump on his setup making around 170whp (sorry if I understate yours number Edwin), but it's not a gamble I'd be willing to take. I'm still running the stock returnless setup with a Walbro pump and I don't have any problems. I have all the stuff to do the return setup, but want to break the motor in first before I go changing something else.
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The search button is overrated.
Know what happens when you search using the search button, you get endless results of people asking questions and then everyone else telling them to search! Well what the hell! The answers never really get out unless you manage to be around when that one thread answers the questions you have.
Thanks for all the info dudes. I really appreciate it.
I started this thread partially to just get some threads goin, doesn't seem to be too much activity around here, so I'd thought I would contribute.
Anyways, so far I've learned a bunch and have enjoyed hearing the conversations.
Know what happens when you search using the search button, you get endless results of people asking questions and then everyone else telling them to search! Well what the hell! The answers never really get out unless you manage to be around when that one thread answers the questions you have.
Thanks for all the info dudes. I really appreciate it.
I started this thread partially to just get some threads goin, doesn't seem to be too much activity around here, so I'd thought I would contribute.
Anyways, so far I've learned a bunch and have enjoyed hearing the conversations.
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