thecivicguy2003

Hey everyone,

I'm having some severe vibration issues with my civic the last week or so. At first I thought it was the axles, but now I'm not so sure. I want to get some feedback before proceeding.

First, a bit about the car:
- 2003 Honda Civic LX
- 209,XXX miles
- Automatic transmission
- Most of the front end replaced at 151,XXX (2014), all suspension parts (minus struts), bearings and axles
- Struts at 171,XXX (2015)

The vibration is quite severe. It makes a loud sound and shakes the floor boards. I don't feel it a ton in the steering wheel though.

The vibration comes on almost always around 35-40 mph (one time at 45mph). Also, this will only happen with very light throttle inputs. I have to either be holding my speed or barely accelerating. I've also noticed that it doesn't seem to happen when the car is cold, I have to drive around for a bit for it to start happening. It also only seems to happen in D, if i put it in D3 it doesn't happen.

Once it starts vibrating it could last about a second and stop, or it could go for over ten. Once the vibration starts I can make it stop by letting off the throttle, hitting the throttle harder or putting it into neutral.

I took a look at the axles, and none of the boots are torn. I did notice that there was some play on the drivers side inner cv joint. I was able to move it up and down a bit. It's hard for me to say if it moves too far though. It was definitely more than the passenger side.

At first I thought for sure it was an axle. It is vibrating very similarly to the way it was when I replaced them 60k ago. I still think this is a possibility, but some of the other symptoms along with doing some searches are making me see some other possibilities.

This could be a motor or transmission mount. I did check those as best I could from under the hood. It didn't seem like there were any problems. But it's hard to say on that.

The other option is the torque converter could be shuddering. It seems that a lot of these symptoms line up with this. I've read that the torque converter may not lock up until the engine warms up, which would explain why it doesn't happen right away. Also, it doesn't vibrate in D3 which wouldn't lock up the torque converter at all.

I checked the transmission fluid and it is brown. Luckily it doesn't appear or feel gritty. As far as I know it has never been changed.

I am still wondering about the axles and mounts though. Part of me feels that because the engine is almost lugging at that speed in 4th, it could be causing the motor/trans to vibrate more. And that could be causing the axles or mounts to shake.

I feel like a good first step would be to change the transmission fluid and see what happens. Part of me is worried the transmission will go if I do though.

I've had friends have this happen shortly after changing transmission fluid. That's the main reason I've never done it so far. I guess my theory has been that if it hasn't been changed regularly it can build up junk in the transmission, then when you change it it can get loose and plug things up. I've only had the car for 5 years, not having known if it had been done previously I decided to leave it be.

Does anyone have any thoughts on all of this?

mac25

Record a clip of the sound and the location it seems to be coming from both while driving the car and while jacked up if you can (be safe).

ezone

These indicate it's transmission related to me. Likely torque converter clutch shudder from what I read above.

Got fault codes?


Well that's gonna be a helluva great place to begin..
You've ignored it long enough. If it craps completely, it's because service was probably ignored all its life, not just now.


The fact these transmissions aren't the most robust in the world doesn't help anything either, and ignoring regular maintenance can only speed an untimely demise.

Too many people never think about regular transmission maintenance UNTIL THERE IS A PROBLEM.

Then they make a feeble attempt at a cheap fix (flush at JizzyLube using the cheapest red fluid on the planet that doesn't meet any manufacturers specifications from the last two decades) and if it doesn't fix the problem, they blame the fluid...or whatever they tried, blame everything except their own neglect of regular maintenance.


Change that fluid ASAP. It'a a lot cheaper than a new trans, if it helps.
It's a simple drain and fill, holds about 2.5 quarts each time you drain it.
Do it, drive it, then drain and fill again.
Repeat until you've used a case of new fluid.

I'd urge you to use Hondas DW1 fluid. (it's full synthetic)
Others may say other brands like Valvoline Maxlife.

thecivicguy2003

I tried recording a video, but the sound didn't come through.

I tried reading the codes last night, but my code reader wasn't working.

I did notice something else though. Before the vibration started the rpms were fluctuating a bit in fourth gear. They would go up and down 100 or so rpms. It seems like the torque converter was locking up and releasing. I'm convinced it's the torque converter now.

Unfortunately I'm in an apartment with strict rules about car maintenance. I'm probably going to run it down to the dealer tomorrow and have em change the fluid out. I'll have em put the DW1 in if they have it.

ezone

That's about right for a TCC on/off difference at speed (slip/stick condition). Most average drivers wouldn't notice that little RPM difference.
If it continues slipping long enough at the right speed range, it will set a fault code.

thecivicguy2003

I had the dealer replace the transmission fluid today. They said the fluid was dirty, but also burnt. So something has gotten really hot in there. Likely the torque converter clutches.

I drove it around a bit and it seemed like the rpms were still fluctuating. I'm gonna drive it around in D3 for a while and see if it gets better in a few days. Maybe if there's a build up somewhere it will have a chance to work through. If it doesn't get better I'm thinking I may put a re-manufactured transmission in.

I asked the dealer how much a transmission would run for the car. They said 5000-6500. Obviously the car isn't worth putting that into it. So I'm gonna look into a reman from another source.

Any recommendations on who does a good job on these? I'm only looking for re-mans, I don't really want to deal with a used or rebuilt tranny.

I sent an email to Jasper and see what their prices are. I've heard they are good. Thoughts on them?

thecivicguy2003

I had the dealer replace the fluid. They said it was dirty, but also burnt. Something must have gotten pretty hot. Probably the Torque converter lock up clutch. I asked them to drive it a bit and change it again, though i get the impression they didn't do that.

I drove it a bit and the surging still seemed to be there. I didn't wait for it to start vibrating though and put it in D3. I'll probably drive it like that for a week or so and try it again. Maybe there's some buildup that will clear out over time.

If it doesn't get better I'm thinking of putting a different transmission in. I asked the dealer what it would cost to put a reman in. They said 5000-6500. Obviously way more than this car is worth. So I'm looking at sourcing one from somewhere else.

Any suggestions on reliable shops? I'm only looking for a re-manufactured unit. I don't want to deal with a used or rebuilt one.

I reached out to Jasper for a quote. I've heard they are pretty good. Anyone have any thoughts or experience with them?

ezone

Not sure why the system ghosted a post of yours, but it's live now.

Did you ask them to figure out what the vibration is, or did you just tell them to change the fluid?

The words used to describe the fluid condition sometimes aren't exactly accurate. Lots of people in shops have little or no experience with such (burned clutch pack) failures, and service advisors tend to go for hard sell sales tactics using scary words people have heard of.

You already knew the fluid was dark. I'm sure it had a strong odor as well.
Stop right there.
"Burned" fluid would have rancid stench literally jumping off the dipstick and climbing up out of the hole, and sticking to all of your nosehairs.


If it's really TCC shudder, I'd suggest do a couple more fluid changes in the very near future and see if there's improvement.

IMO fluid service solves the majority of the shudder complaints I encounter. Some need more than a single drain and fill to reach that point, some really benefit from 4x and a full case of fluid......... but once in a while the TCC shudder isn't solved with simple fluid service and the converter has to be replaced (assuming the issue is limited to TCC shudder) or replace the whole trans, if you want.


==


For a replacement trans, USD $5-6 k seems high to me, but I don't do the numbers and I don't know the actual price of a Honda supplied reman trans off the top of my head. Nor labor.
I think each case has to be phoned in to the reman center just to get a price, that takes time.

Try checking out smaller dealers in smaller outlying towns for an estimate.

Also, the 'shoot from the hip' ballpark price might be far different from a real and researched estimate.

Check website for HNAtrans.com (H&A: Honda and Acura trans), our shop has used some of theirs in various Hondas and Acuras with good results.

thecivicguy2003

I have some good news to report. I tried using D again last night and the torque converter locked up properly. The rpms dropped to the right speed and didn't fluctuate. I drove for about 15 miles in the 35-40 mph range and there was no vibration. It looks like changing the fluid helped!

I just asked them to change it, not to investigate anything. The guy at the desk asked if it was acting up, i told him that the torque converter was shuddering. Before they did the change the tech called me and said that changing the fluid would likely be a waste of money and wanted to know if I really wanted it done. I told him i knew this may not fix it but wanted to try anyways.

When I checked the fluid, I definitely didn't notice a smell that intense. I actually didn't notice any bad smells at all. though I wasn't thinking about it at the time.

Ya, that's what i thought about the price too. If it turns out I end up needing to replace it, I'll check out that site and some of smaller shops in the area.

I'm gonna get the fluid changed again soon to make sure all the old fluid is out of there. Do you think I should replace it again after that? Just wondering since it seems to be working now.

ezone

Sounds like fluid service is resolving the complaint.....and since you indicate this trans could have been neglected for a lifetime, I would suggest continue with regular fluid services in the very near future.

The trans might hold 8-9 quarts of fluid total, but you can only drain about 2.5 quarts out at a time, and the new fluid mixes with what's left of the old.
So you do this drain/fill/drive procedure several times, the goal is to get the vast majority of old worn out fluid replaced through attrition..

Now that you know it's improved, you could do more services right away (my personal preference), or have the trans fluid changed again with each of the next few oil changes....then continue on a regular 30k service interval for the transmission fluid?

Personal and family Hondas I care for get ATF changed (drain and fill) with every other oil change.


If you can DIY change your own engine oil, changing the trans fluid is a little easier.

nsrhonda89

I have used these two products in my car and they work wonder for my transmission. I have never used the new Honda DW1 fluid. I only use Eneos now with a drain and refill once a year.


I have tried amsoil atf, Castrol import atf, mobile 1 atf and Honda atf-z1.


You may want to do an ecu relearn.


http://www.lubegard.com/~/C-303/LUBE...uid+Protectant


http://www.eneos.us/products/eneos-t...eneos-eco-atf/

thecivicguy2003

I knew not all of the fluid comes out, didn't realize the ratio was that low though. I'm definitely going to get a few extra changes done in short order. Then start changing it more regularly.

ezone

I was guessing. Alldata says 6.3q for a Civic.
Larger trans (Accord, Odyssey, etc.) holds more fluid.