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This is probably for the real racers out there. What do you guys recommend I do as far as shifting I want every detail. When to do it and how. What's the best rev to change gear in? Or certain mph? Thanx, I just got back from ARMY training in Ft. Knox KY and Ft. Jackson SC and I bought this car with the extra money and I want to learn the ropes, this is my first car, I think it's pretty good for a starter.

 
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I'd say do a search with a million exclamations points after it, but I just cant flame an army man! They do so much for our country... instead Ill tell you this.. try the search feature, there were some past posts that are very helpful in this area. There, I said it, helpful and courteaous... perhaps the attitude changed with the new server????

 
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It really just depends on the terrain, for normal driving I shift any where from 3000 to 3900. But sometimes I go higher, just whatever really. If you are talking about shift points for racing I shift just a bit under redline.

 
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maybe im dumb but if im racing i just red line it in every gear, i dont have so much hp that i can spare it by shifting early ja know wat ah mean main?

 
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hehe

 
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I'm not sure if you need advice on how to shift when you race or how to shift period. This (http://www1.excite.com/home/info/learn2/tutorials_qa_overview/0,14899,auto_689_1,00.html) is a tutorial for learning how to drive a stick, after you drive a stick for a while you will start 'feeling' when you need to shift. As far as racing, this also helps, when you get to know your car and how it works in all the gears you will know that to pass someone you shift to third, etc. etc.
Hope that helped a bit!

Lidia

 
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REDLINE EVERY GEAR!!!!!!

 
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dont listen to this idiot
or else you will break your engine down in no time

 
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redline is not the best place to shift. gosh newbies what are u going to do with them.

 
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Well, I have tried shifting right before redline to try to keep the V-Tec active but is it correct to do so?

 
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VTEC comes on at 5500RPM's. No need to redline it, like WTFBjtch said, that is a nice way to ruin your engine! Just take it slow and get to know the gears before you start racing. Like i said in my earlier post you will eventualy feel when you need to shift gears for more power. Experience, it's all about experience [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG] If you don't know how to drive a stick well, don't expect to win many races [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG]

Lidia

 
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I have done a little experimenting with the shifts points out on the road. I normally shift right at redline if I am racing or just hauling some butt. This is a pretty rare occasion so I haven't done it a whole lot. I tried shifting a few hundred rpm before redline and 3 hundred before, and so forth. I always felt like the car was accelerating the fastest when shifting at redline. Any shift before redline seemed like it always left the engine just below the powerband or where the engine really starts to scream. Plus, I have always felt that the engine redlines to soon in second and seems to be pulling strong up to the rev-limiter. However, I did read an article on drag racing somewhere saying that you did want the engine to drop just below the power (or maybe the torque peak or something, I don't know) band on each successive shift.

I guess the real question is whether the time lossed pulling to redline beyond a certain rpm is greater than the time lossed of shifting earlier and wainting for the engine to scream again.

By the way, I am no expert and don't pretend to be. So, if my technical terms are incorrect, please feel free to correct me as I like to learn.

 
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You're pretty much right on the money. Max torque and HP happen at RPMs slightly less than redline so you do lose by redlining. However, you make up for this by shifting the engine into a higher RPM range in the next gear, thus more T & HP. Generally an engine that dervives its peak HP at very near redline should be shifted at said redline. Don't worry too much about your engine. Redline is not some definate point such that crossing it immediatly causes your engine to explode. Most redlines are set well below what the enigne could theoretically handle, and the ECU will cut you off if you even start to approach the real danger zone.

The thing to work on for race shifting is how fast/smooth the shift takes place. For instance, if I get a very fast 1-2 shift at RL my front tires really break traction and it is sometimes difficult to not go slightly off track with my steering. This is what you should shoot for as it means you are getting a fast shift. A much more important aspect to racing is the launch. This will make or break a run. Once again you have a tradeoff of how much wheelspin/clutch slip to allow. Too much and you sit and burn while your opponent laughs at you. Too little and your engine will bog and cause too slow a start.

As someone said, experience is the key. You have to feel the car and know what to do when. Oh, if you are new to stick, practice alot before you race. The tolerance and lee-way you have while driving normally doesn't apply when you are redlining the car. A mis-shift could easily ruin the engine or cause you to lose control. Keep it on the track

 
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Peak HP in our cars is at 6,300RPMs...

 
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[IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG]

Thank you...

When he says "Most redlines are set well below what the engine could theoretically handle," he means that if you're driving an Acura NSX for example... you push the car beyond it's redline (like up to 700 RPMs after the redline point) the engine is okay before you can do serious harm.

For our cars, the ECU will kick in at 7,000RPMs... right before you can do any damage to the engine. I don't understand why some people want to disengage it when it's simply there to prevent your engine from wearing down quicker. Oh well, that's all I gotta say for now... [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/IMG]

 
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oh man, thanx a lot on the help, I have been practicing and I'm really enjoying this. I'll practice a bit more before trying a race, I will stick to the track and be safe. I hope I can get it right. I really appreciate the descriptive explanations.

 
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On the Pro 5 Peak torq is at 4000RPMs, i tend to shift just a bit over that to get the most juice. When you shift you'll want to either shift fast, or rev it up as you shift so that your RPMs don't drop on the next gear. And keep it around your peak torq area.

 
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dang, you guys beat me to it. when in a drag race in our car, you shift every time at redline. period. it causes the lowest amount of torque lost.

I wrote a post in another trhead about this, something like "anyone sit down and calculate shift points..." it was something like that. anyways, I posted that the minimum torque lost was at redline, even from 4-5.

now, the real trick to making you fast is smooth shifting. a smooth shift that is slower than a fast jerky shift = a faster run. this is why a shortshifter does not help and can actually hurt performance if you dont know whats going on.

its also why mbow was saying he could feel the most acceleration when shifting at redline. when you dump teh clutch at 4k rpms vs 7k rpms, the car is gonna jerk a bit more at 7k, thus giving you the "appearance" of going faster. this is accentuated if you dump early and have a SS.

so: i know its repeating what everyone already said, but going fast is a matter of smooth driving. practice practice practise [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG]

 
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according to the dyno... for LX/DX's shift point is at 5800 RPM... that's where the baseline peaks...

 
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you dont shift at you rpeak, youd lose masive amounts of torque!

its not about what power you MAKE at shift, its about minimozing the power you LOSE after the shift.

THAT is the secret to shift points.

in a 4 cylinder car like a civic? its at redline. always. period.

 
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I assume that most of us, if not all of us, can shift plenty fast enough. I think the secret is in the launch. If you can't get that right, then you are screwed from the start. I would like to see launching strategies discussed.

WhiteRabbit: Please explain your smooth shifting technique with a little detail if you don't mind. I tend to shift as fast as possible and always end up with a very nice chirp, actually more like a little spin since I got the rotas, and it jerks the car pretty bad. Same thing happens in third. I get into third so quick that you can feel and hear a vibration go all through the car and the wheels will almost chirp again. Oh, and the ss has nothing to do with it. I have always shifted this way.

 
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let teh clutch out slower. sounds wrong, but untill you can match the gears (which i dont think is possible from 1st to 2nd in our cars) you stuck letting the clutch slip

 
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Well, in general, you want to shift when the car first decreases it's acceleration rate. Some cars are around 4K-5K rpm, however, I find around 6300-6500 rpm sufficient for my civic but thats for the lower gears(1,2,3). For the shift to 4th, I'll take it up to redline, that way the car starts at about 5500rpm or so. Shifting is only one part of racing, what about launching? You have to launch at a decent rpm, anything 3000rpm wont do. Also, you don't want to break traction off the lauch; A little sqwak is good but no squelling. I bought myself a g-tec and I really worked on my launching and shift points. So, I have a fair grasp on how to make myself faster. Some of my best 0-60 runs felt like they were very slow because I didn't take it up to redline in 1st gear.

 
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I'll give it a shot. I know it's going to feel slower. I have kinda done that before as I remembered you talking about smooth shifting being faster. It just stinks. I need a track in the backyard or something. You really need the dragstrip to really fine tune your acceleration skills if you ask me. Maybe i'll order a g-tech or something.

Any tips for launching?

 
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CivicSouldja: are you asking about regular shifting, or racing shifting? Or just questions on HOW to drive manual cars?

 
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Just drive faster than the other car

 
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do you know how much torque you are losing when you shift from 1st to 2nd (6300 rpm down to 3200 rpm)
compared to 1st to 2nd (7100 rpm to 3800-4000?)

cause its alot. in a GSR you lose 20% more torque at lower gears than at higher gears. My guess would be your letting teh wheels chirp by reving it to redline or letting the car jerk, which certainly doesnt help your ET at all. (smooth shifting is much easier at lower rpms, we all know this from experience.)

Mbow, im really really bad at takeoff, ill admit, but the trick is to let the clutch slip, assuming you have stock tires. sometimes i feel like our tires are made out of hard plastic, not rubber. You get a super soft compound tire, on a wider rim, and the traction difference is nuts! but the fact remains, (and you know this just as well as i do) if your spinning the tires, your car aint going anywhere. the reason we need to let teh clutch slip is cause our tires are too hard!

I know a guy up in new york who races autocross (as far as shifting is concerned, compared to drag it means the takeoff is far less important, and smooth shifting is far more important) He replaces his tires on his civic every year

My plan to best take advantage of wheels and tires would be to get a pair of junk wheels (14's of course) very wide, then get the lowest profile tire you can find. and make sure its STICKY. get a narrow size, so when you stretch it out on teh rim, you REALLY stratch it to the limit.

this way you have a large soft contact patch, and your rotating circumference is as small as possible (decrease top speed but increase acceleration.)

this will cause a fantastic number of problems on the street, but it doesnt matter. you put them in the trunk and go to teh track, and use those wheels on the strip only (or an autocross course, or a sanctioned street course)

something like this would greatly help grip, and maybe if I did this, i would get to shift into 4th gear before the 1/4 mile is up [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG]

 
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If you're racing you should shift very close to redline. Make the most of each gear.

For daily driving do not push the car to redline! You will wear your engine out quickly! I killed my 6th gen in 83,000 miles by redline shifting all the time.

 
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WhiteRabbit, let me clarify things first. I drive a LX, so, it doesn't make all the same power as the EX does. The peak torque comes at 4500rpm, and peak hp at 6100rpm. So, if I'm taking it up to 7100rpm, I'm just wasting my time with over-revving it. With the mods I have done to my car(Magnaflow catback and AEM CAI), my car really pulls around 3500-4000rpm.

As for chirping the tires, it's from my launch. I'll start off by keeping the car at about 3500-4000rpm. When I start, I drop the clutch(not all the way) to the point the tires chirp and then I'll slip it to the point of maximum engagement and to keep the tires from spinning. Ever raced a dirtbike? You learn good starts from them and how/when to shift for fastest acceleration.

I have perfected my technique and I know I have because I used a G-Tec to measure my 0-60 time. There is one exception though, I won't shift to 3rd when I do my 0-60 because it slows your time down. I'll just ride second out.

Whats your personal best 0-60 time? My first run was around a 10.45 second mark. With my mods and practice, I'm done to 8.43 seconds. I should be able to break 8 pretty soon.

 
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blown, you are actually in a very unique position. the position to prove yourself wrong.

No one who really builds up cars has any real faith in pocket dyno tests. Even a crosswind will positively or negatively affect your results! there IS no constant environment, unlike a real dyno, to provide real good test results.

If you got your best time in an innefficient way, my guess is that it was because the environment changed to help you.

but here, you dont have to take my word for it. you can "dyno" your car for yourself and track teh results! check it out:

If you dont want to use your "dyno," then you can use this equasion:

Drive wheel torque = (flywheel trq x gear ratio x final drive x efficiency) / tire rolling radius

this is a very basic equasion, but you dont really need it because you have your own "dyno." basically, you want to make a chart, where the vertical positions are your gears, and the horizontal positions are your RPMs. fill the chart with torque values you measure (or calculate) based on what gear you are in and what RPM you are in. accurate to 500 RPM is good enough:

GEAR RPM 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500 7000 redline
3.2
1.9
1.2
.96
.71

see how it works? once this chart is filled, you can sit down and calculate your proper shift points. now you calculate where you shift to:

RPM after shift = (ratio shifted to / ratio shifted from) x RPM @ shift

using this equasion, you can determine across the board where you end up after you shift. calculate if you shift where YOU are shifting from, and when you shift at redline. this we will use to make a comparison of torque losses.

so here is what you do. make a new chart, with 2 columns. one for redline, one for your shift RPM. I will make a sample for you, of just redline with some bs numbers.

SHIFT RPM - 7000
RPM after shift - 3500
1st to second - 4118
- 1549
torque in first - 919

torque in second - 630 Difference

2nd to 3rd - 4675
- 911
torque in second - 624

torque in 3rd - 287 Difference



This keeps going down till you have shifted into 5th gear (if you want, but you will see after shifting to third the point I am trying to make)
the numbers you want to compare are the rows that say "difference" you will notice teh difference in torque lost while shifting is FAR greater at a lower shift point than a higher one. (for this example, the 1-2 difference shifting at 5500 RPM was 772, where shifting at redline was only 630)

In this way you will see that actually, to MINIMIZE torque lost, the idea shift point is redline, everytime.

Now: in lets say a V8 monster, where you have MANY more moving parts, MUCH more torque, but can make those parts spin as fast as our I-4 minimotors, shift RPM is a much harder thing to calculate. This is due to the fact that AT redline, more torque is lost than shifting lower. however, for our engines, which produce peak power at much higher speeds than a V8, lose the least torque at redline. the ACTUAL theoretical shift point for our cars is actually much higher than redline! but redline is, for all intents and purposes, the best we can do to minimize torque lost.

as far as your 0-60 times, your 1/4 miles, all your claims based on your pocket dyno, I am sorry that you dont realize how innaccurate those devices actually are. the fact is, anything and everything can and will affect the results, which is why they are not used more often.

Im sure your gonna discount everything I have to say, but take it or leave it, here is the information ANYONE can use to calculate the proper shift points on ANY car.