silver02coupe

I dont think so. Im not an engineer, or a mechanic or anything like that. But based on what Iv'e seen ( mid-late 90's, early 2000's) American cars are still pieces of crap. I'm not biased , in fact before I knew about the reliability of Hondas I used to think they sucked.

R1Style

iTrader: (20)

13 problems on a car that's less then 2.5 years old and has 34,000km's (not miles! ) is rediculous. He has a full 2 pages or warranty replacement parts on that car.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

2000 focus recalls.

http://www.alldata.com/TSB/19/001950en.html
http://www.alldata.com/TSB/19/001950ep.html

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

Interesting.... the 2000 Focus has 13 recalls and the 2000 civic has 2

LowSky

iTrader: (2)

yeah but how many problems does our civic (esp. 2001) have that honda will fix for free (if you push them) but never put out a recall...

like the windshield, clutch pedal, struts, front seats, dash lighting, and rear deck.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

2001 (new model) civic has 5 reaclls, but by 2002 they fixed 4 of them, hence 2002 only has 1 recall and 2003-2005 have 0 recalls.

But yeah they fix alot for free.

Also, notice I'm just talking about recalls, TSB's are far more and are often fixed free of charge on car just outside the warrenty. Ford has done the same for me.

SimonTek

Before I had my 05, and 96 civic's, I had a 99 Chevy S10 extcab.

Truck

Well I bought it with 12 miles, it was new. In the time I owned it, I had to have the seats replaced 3 times each (under warranty), Transmission went out at 60,000 miles. The differential went out at 80,000 miles. I had literally replaced everything but the engine block while owning it. I rarely hauled anything. I didn't abuse it, but it would break down every month or 2. And people still wonder why I got rid of it, had it for 6 years, and put atleast $30k in it, just in repairs. Hint the cars that followed were civics. The truck was my few american cars. I have had german cars (cosworth ford Sierra), Nissans, Daewoo, Volvo, etc. The only american car I still have thats good is the 34 ford.

gotarheels03

American cars ARENT EVEN CLOSE to Japanese today! Look at every model Toyota & Honda and at a comparable American vehicle. They are still complete junk in terms of initial quality and reliability. And Toyota (Especially Lexus) consistently blow away the competition, even though their lower end models I.E. Corolla's aren't quite as trouble free as they were throughout the 90's.

lvxciter

oh i know that i was just saying something, i have a toyota pickup with 280k on the original 22r 4cyl. runs strong and still going today (with a slight head gasket issue). i also have a 71 buick 350 with 71k on it and it starts every day on first crank. so tolerances are better with MOST foreign made cars. with the exeotion of daewoo.

gotarheels03

^Nice. The 22R/RE might be the most bulletproof engine Toyota ever made. Ever seen the topgear episode where they put a Toyota truck through hell? 22RE's are amazing engines.

Roosbok

Canadian made domestics seem to have better quality reputations than US made. Examples: Canada: Crown Vic, Impala, Buick US: Focus, Stratus, Neon

Exceptions: Some Cadillacs, Malibu sort of.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

ok, i'll take a recall on a squeaky part, or a light not working, instead of f*cking 13 SAFETY RECALLS where something can cause injury or death, such as the car starting on fire, the airbag deploying for no reason, the wheel falling off, etc.

there is a HUGE F*CK DIFFERENCE!!!

thegent

Lol @ the wheel falling off of a dude's brand new Ford F*ckus. I would laugh so hard I'd cry

iwu

Ya... none of those things you mentioned have anything to do with Focus recalls. But hey, way to sound dramatic and stuff

MajinB

iTrader: (21)

ok, that magic number 13 is not right. i just went to that link and thats just 13 SAFETY recalls. there is like 100 recalls on that page. some include safety belt stuff. other things include suspension. that does make safety an issue. if ford put as much into the cars that they do the trucks it would be half way decent. it would still suck, but would be alot better. put it this way, back in the day when FORD started, it was all about quality for the price. now its all about cheapo this and cheapo that. and alot of people still buy the car cause they are just stupid. yes stupid. cause if they were smart they would research the car and realize its a sad attempt to make competition for the japapnese companies.
on another note- hyundai/kia are made in korea BUT with "strict" Japanese standards. is this crap or not? just wonering.

iwu

You don't know what a recall is apperantly, most of the stuff on the page is service bulletins, which is not a recall at all. Normal TSBs that aren't recalls are things that have a 'tendancy' to happen, for example... if many Focuses go in for wheel bearing replacements, they make a note of it in 'TSB' form so that the service writer can immediately know the problem.

I had a 2003 2.3 Focus and there were no recalls on it. I did have a minor issue with cold starts and there was a TSB for it however, so they reflashed my ECU without having to troubleshoot the problem since they already knew what it was because of the TSB.

Most of those 'recalls' are duplicates based on manufacturing date, for example if you have a 2000 Focus made in a certain month you will have one specific battery cable relocation recall, but if your Focus was made in another month it will have that same battery cable recall but the repair process is slightly different.

BTW the 2005 Accord has 2 safety recalls, the 2005 Focus has ZERO

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

oh really? apparently you have NO CLUE what the hell you're talking about. You sir, can consider yourself owned more than any stupid fanboi I've ever owned.

Here are 5 of the 13 recalls for the ford focus.

A. Investigation: EA02-014, PE02-032
Model Year: 2000-02
Subject: Electrical System, Engine Compartment Fires
-Fires start in the battery area of the engine compartment.
Recall: 02V-289 Vehicles affected: 446,569

B. Investigation: EA02-017, PE02-020
Model Year: 2000-01
Subject: Air Bag Burn Injuries/Vehicle Fires
-Air bag deployment may cause burn injuries and vehicle fires.
Recall: 00V-302

C. Investigation: PE02-016
Model Year: 2000
Subject: Rear Wheel Bearing Failure
-Rear wheel bearings may fail, causing rear wheel to loosen and separate from vehicle.
Recall: 00V-303 Vehicles affected: 203,700

D. Investigation: EA02-023, PE02-044
Model Year: 2000-02
Subject: Front Suspension Lower Control Failure
- Front suspension may collapse, causing loss of control and crash.
Recall: 02V-288 Vehicles Affected: 291,854

E. Investigation: PE02-026
Model Year: 2000-01
Subject: Inappropriate Air Bag Deployment
-Air bags may deploy in low speed impacts and fender benders, causing injury.


and in case you're wondering, there were recalls for other such things, such as the throttle cable sticking open, causing people to not be able to stop the vehicle or lose control. another caused the engine to stall and lose power while driving, which isn't a good thing if you're going 75mph.


/ownage
Have a nice day.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

1 is an electrical failure where the fuel pump fails. worst thing that could happen? the car won't start.

the other is an airbag issue, which is the only safety issue.

not that this matters. again, i'll take these 2 recalls over the 13 the ford focus had, considering many of the focus recalls were things that could cause serious injury and/or death. oh but wait that's right. i just made that up hey?

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

you really have NO CLUE how recalls work do you. when a recall is issued, THEY SUPPLY A DATE RANGE for model year and manufacturing date. they don't issue a recall for each model year. of course, considering you knew jack sh*t about any of the other recalls, this doesn't surprise me either.

sorry, but the ford focus has 13 SEPERATE recalls, spanning 2000-2002 model years. this, is a record for most recalls in a new vehicle EVER.

iwu

I think I stated early on in this thread that the 2000 Focus is one of the worst vehicles ever made, so if you think you are 'owning' me by providing proof, think again.

My point is that people tend to use the 2000 Focus as an example for all years of Focus, and even the entire 'American' car market. Again there are no recalls for 2005 on the Focus, and for the 2003 I had there were none either except for some of the premium heated seat models and some issue with the heater.

So using your logic, you would rather have a 2005 Focus than a 2005 Accord because the Focus has no recalls, and better yet, no 'serious' safety recalls.

iwu

You're quite a little e-thug aren't you?

Take a step back from the discussion for a second and calm down. I would expect a bit more maturity from an admin.

iwu

I think it's hilarous that you took the time to EDIT your post to add "/ownage".

Thanks for the continued entertainment

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

Your my main entertainment, you just outright claim everything anyone posts is wrong, but when someone challenges your "data" that comes without any sources, you expect us fall over and be instently convinced by a couple of 90 day studies.

Back on topic, yes the Focus sucked, that was the first year right? So compare it to other first year cars, like the civic in '01. Sure the Focus does not have any more after 2 years, neither did the civic, look at the 2003 civic, nothing major. But the point is, in that first year, the Ford had 13 and the first year for the civic had what 5? You don't have to go for Ford, look at the Neon's when they came out, the only reason they sold is because they where practically giving them away, you could get a neon for almost 1/2 the cost of a Civic... why is that?

You never really answered my previous question about why you think a used civic is worth more than a used focus?

iwu

I'm just glad I can provide a bit of entertainment as well bud.

Another thing I stated previously in the thread was that American car makers are 'getting better' but they still have a ways to go. Really this 'getting better' thing has happened ONLY within the last 5 years with the exception of a few quirks obviously.

You actually answered your own question, partially, about price and resale value.

Ford and GM etc. are only interested in financing and servicing vehicles, that's how they make money. But they need to sell a ton of vehicles to make that happen. The most purchased vehicle in the WORLD is the F-150, think about that... there is one being purchased something on the measure of every 1.5 seconds. Heard that on a Top Gear article.

The car guy from USA Today told me in a chat once that every dollar of sale price (as in discount or rebate) lowers the resale value of that same car by 60 cents to $1. This however only accounts for a portion of why resale value is so bad on American cars. They don't 'protect' their resale value by selling them for more money, so what happens is that when you get tired of your Focus, your vehicle isn't worth as much as it should be and you are almost forced to buy American again because the sale prices will absorb your negative equity.

Another reason for low resale value is the scar that "the big 3" left on consumers, and it's going to take a while for that to go away. So even though Ford is making decent cars now... like the Five Hundred and the Fusion, people will still expect them to be sold for less, simply because it's a Ford.

Well that puts Ford in a bit of a spot, they can either continue to offer lower priced vehicles and keep on keepin' on the way they have since the late 90's, or try and turn it around. Well they are doing both. They know what they have to do to compete now, especially when consumer dollars are worth as much as they are lately.

However the 'employee pricing' thing recently left me in awe of their ignorance, just when they started to gain ground they go and saturate the market with low priced cars and trucks, which people purchased by trading in their used American cars and trucks.... FURTHER driving the value down.

So to answer your question there are 3 reasons why a used Civic is worth a hell of a lot more than a used Focus:

1. Honda protects their current customers by offering FEW discounts on their cars.
2. Ford tends to do the opposite and they could give a crap less about your car after you buy it so long as you come to them to service the car when it's out of warranty.
3. Even if the Focus had no recalls and the Civic had 5, the 'scar' factor (which is widespread in this thread) lowers the price yet again.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

oh really? interesting.
even though this was only a few posts ago, let me refresh your memory.
backpedal much? try again please.

actually, my logic states i'd rather have an import because less is likely to go wrong. i could care less if the focus is a terrible example of an american car. at the end of the day, imports will have less problems and longer reliability than domestics. how hard is this to understand?

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

i'm annoyed how ignorant people can be, and how they want to argue in the face of proof.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

yup. it's the fine touches that matter.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

you forgot reliability and long term repair costs, as well as past performance in this matter. this is a huge determining factor on resale values.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

I can agree that the American companies have began to get better in the last 5 years, they still have a ways to go, but they are getting better. You have seem to come off as the American made cars are just as good as the imports at times though, rather you ment to do that or not is a different story.

I know most of what you stated above, but I still don't trust an American car/truck to last 300,000 miles, I intend on my truck lasting around 100,000 miles, just like my last 2 chevy trucks. I intend on my '06 civic to last at least 200,000 miles, if not 250,000 miles. Only time will tell if I right.

The scar factor I think plays a big roll, the problem is that the scar hasn't healed yet. Way to many people (with good cause) believe that an import will last longer than a domestic, plain and simple. People will pay more for a car with 100,000 miles if they feel they can get another 100,000 out of it. I don't know if todays civic are quite as good as the ones past, but they are still worth more.

aki

Ah, iwu is indeed backpedaling--heehee.

I don't know why this thread still exists--Ford has consistently shown that it is nowhere near the competitive level of Honda or Toyota. The "getting better" line was used for more than a decade, and the fact is American cars are not improving enough to have consumers put their faith in domestic cars. It's not only reliability, it's also the build quality (grain of plastic, fender/panel gaps, ergonomics).

I'll admit, the Focus is a much more fun car to drive than the Civic, and the 05 Focus looks and performs better than the 05 Civic. Heck, I think the 05 Focus looks better than the 8th gen, though I'd got to see the 8thgen in person to make a final verdict. But until I see Consumer Reports giving the same kind of marks as a Honda or Toyota, I'm not gonna take the chance.