S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

i found it back a while ago when doing research on Edward W. Deming, the guy responsible for the imports being better than domestics, and essentially revolutionizing the japanese manufacturing processes used today.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

i think it's more than that. it's a logistical nightmare to change everything you have done in regards to manufacturing over the last century. over time the change can be done, and I think they are starting to progress. but it's not an overnight change by any means.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

exactly. no one can regale us with their own personal experiences and try to determine the mean from such statements.

the best explination i've used before and i'll use again. it's like a lottery.

let's say GM sells a lotto ticket with a 1:1000 chance of winning a million bucks. now Honda sells a lotto ticket with a 1:500 chance of winning a million bucks. which are you going to choose?

the reference to this being, ALL car companies will have "winners" when it comes to cars that last and were built well. likewise all companies can have lemons. but what it comes down to is a game of probability. you have a better chance of having a problem free import than a problem free domestic.

scansel912

iTrader: (4)

Whats your guy's views on European cars vs American cars on reliablity?

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

Yes... the big 3 know how to build a better car, but they can not simply scrap their current plants and build all new ones. That can not happen. So at the moment, they are taking the hit on warrenty issues because it's cheaper than building all new plants. As the current plants get shut down and new ones opened, you will see quality rise, but at the same time Honda/Toyota are doing the same thing. So the questin is now, can the American companies sprint to catch up to the fast paced imports?

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

Benz.........has gone down
BMW.........is good, but I don't think as good as they used to be. so also gone down, but not as bad as Benz.
VW/Audi... (VW bug is the most unreliable car made today)
Porsche....never ment to be an everyday car
Jag...........= Ford (read: much more reilable, but has lost the Jag prestige)

Any others?

I think the Euro market is much better looking than the America and Japanese market though.

JP375

iTrader: (1)

Good god people, we all know this is never going to end. Lets just keep something in mind shall we....

NONE OF THIS MATTERS!

If everyone saw the same thing in cars they would make 1 car and that would be it, but there is hundreds of different models out there. Why? because we all value different characteristics in our vehicles. You make trade offs and settle on what is most important to YOU in a vehicle. Each manufacturer offers their own blend of features/quality/reliability. Yes some may not be as good at certain combinations as others ,but they each offer unique experiences. Example: I will probably end up buying a Pontiac G6 GTP coupe come next spring. I know its probably going to have more problems than my Honda. I've only driven Hondas, so it might be rough going. But this car speaks to me. I can't stop thinking about it, its like being in love. Yes its panel gaps are as wide as the grand canyon, yes the interior is a bit plasticy, yes it gets horrible gas mileage, but I don't care. Don't get me wrong, I love Honda, I love Toyota, but to me they are just plain boring. All the quality in the world wouldn't make up for that. So I'm going with a lesser quality car, to satisfy some of my other wants. This is what it is all about.

So I beg you, I plead you. Give it up. Who cares. If no one likes American cars, then they will cease to exist at some point. Cars exist for a reason....because someone, somewhere thought it was a good car.

There is no need to compare quality, only provide data for an individual to make their own decisions.

orion_squall

I don't know...

whatever we say, these cars will still be consider prestige...

the B's (BMW, Benz) and jag will always be a must-have to show you are a capable man with money and power.

Rich people would still rather ger a 5 serie instead of an Acura RL. Sometimes reliability, economical is not in buyer's mind. Strange, but true.

Supatech

What is most sad is when the American car companies buy good foreign car companies in an attempt to expand their markets and improve their US domestic product. Apart from the Ford>Mercury>Lincoln and GM>Saturn>Buick>Cadillac etc., here are some examples:

Ford - Purchased or "merged" with Mazda in the 70's or 80's. They now own Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Aston Martin (100% since 1994).

General Motors - Owns Hummer, Saab, Holden, Opel (huge in Europe), and Vauxhall.

Although not American, Germany's Volkwagen owns Audi, Porche, and Lamborghini.

This is not a complete list, but it is intended to reflect how some car companies will go to extremes to try to expand in different markets. What would be more profitable would be concentrating on improving their own product, and improving it along the way. That is one thing that Honda has done all along, and the only radical idea that they have done is developing the Acura line for America. How can you compare the companies?

MajinB

iTrader: (21)

dude mazda and ford merged in the mid 90's didn't they???

mrchowmein

merge might not be the proper word. i think ford is a majority stock holder of mazda. so basically ford owns mazda. they share designs, platforms and components. however they do not really share the manufacturing process. as you can see mazda, ford and volvos share some of the designing process. however when you look at the build quality of each car, they all look entirely different.

with mitsubishi and nissan, mazda didnt build cars that were as reliable as honda or toyota. all in a sense suffered financially partially becuase of the build quality and the West came in with money to save them. Mazda and Nissan has done a lot better when Ford and Renualt took over. DiamlerChrysler is backing off Mitsu due to the continue decline in quality.

aznboysrfr

iTrader: (10)

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

I'd say that american cars still have a lot of problems

jfan

This was true a while ago.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

There is no doubt about that. I know if I was making say $350,000/year I would consider a 5 series just because it looks nicer, but I think very few people are this postition.

However I consider a Jag to not be as pretigous as it once was. I remember when Jags where very expensive and expensive to maintain, hence only the rich had them. Now you can buy a Jag for as much as a nice Accord.

R1Style

iTrader: (20)

One of my buddies has a 2003 SVT Focus with 34,000km's on it and has already gone in for 13 recalls... yes 13 RECALLS!

Ford is offering to buy back the car and give him an extra 6grand or so ontop of it to purchase another Ford.

bigmurr

iTrader: (1)

I had a professor that worked for GM and he told us that the engineers there designed parts to only work some many miles so that the consumers would have to come back and buy replacement parts. They haven’t fixed the problems because they're making more money selling replacement parts.

iwu

There isn't really even 13 recalls for a 2003 Focus SVT....

so do you just mean he had 13 problems and is going to Lemon law it? People Lemon Hondas too so what is your point?

iwu

Ok nice way to spread rumors and lies but no.

The deal is that Ford and GM hardly makes money selling cars, they make money on warranty, finance, and repair... they also make money selling trucks.

Nobody is intentionally making degrading parts, you either misunderstood him or he is a blatent liar.

bigmurr

iTrader: (1)

maybe not intentionally but I am positive that the american engineers could design cars that could last either longer and have less problems than they do now. why do you think forgien cars on average out last domestic? i can tell you that the engineers here are not worse then over there.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

Actually, I firmly believe that US engineers are just as good as Japanese or European, in fact I would say the US engineers are better than them, US engineers have to do more with less. Japanese are very good at taking something already made and adding to it, look at the Camary; one of the biggest things people point out about it is how long it goes and only gets small "updates." But after 10 updates, it's the most reilable car on the market because all the bugs have been worked out.

I have nothing agianst the engineers of US manufactures, or the factory workers, or any body else except the corperate. The higher end people of the American companies where to focused on short term profits when they should have been looking at the long term and designing plans to improve their line ups. Now they are paying for it because the Japanese have thought ahead.

orion_squall

Usually there is nothing to do with the engineers, Jap, Us or Euro engineers should all have similar level of expertise. Unfortunately, engineers does not run the company, executive, sales, CFO does. They only care about money and short term profit. The poor engineers only gets paid for what they do, usually they have nothing to do with company politics and long term planning.

scansel912

iTrader: (4)

Good Point ^^^^

EnProceso

iTrader: (11)

didnt take the time to read all of this thread but heres my 2 cents.

my dad has owned nothing but fords, both cars and pick ups. ALL of his cars and trucks have broke down and needed some type of heavy duty fixing, like engine or tranny problems. his pick up is broke right now with a broken rod. whats he driving now? his friends toyota tacoma.

AntiLoop

iTrader: (3)

American Cars in general have definately improved from years past, but the problem is this.. Japanese continue to improve always... It seems as if the Americans are always playing catch up and it kills them in the end.

P.S. - It doesnt help that American cars are ugly also

orion_squall

is it me or it is hard to tell fom jap and american car for some of the 2006 models...

RangerMan

iTrader: (1)

97 was a new model year, just like 01 vic.

lvxciter

one thing, have you looked at the areas that the motor and trannies for most hondas come from? maryland, usa! the accord v-6, 4 cyl, and 6 cyl tranny come from america and the tranny for the 4 cyl comes from japan? now that is tecnicaly american made.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

to say they intentionally design the parts to fail is really not incorrect.

having had an uncle who was an engineer and used to design parts for Ford, he made it quite clear that Ford wanted the cheapest design possible. obviously this meant the part would not last either.

the big three all make cars with the cheapest parts possible. because that is their philosophy to building cars. to say that means they intentionally design degrading parts, or to say they are designing parts that follow their philosophy in building affordable cars, neither statement is incorrect.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

the point being you'll get more lemon law domestic vehicles than import vehicles.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

no, you're missing the point that I made before.

it has NOTHING to do with WHERE the parts are made. US, japan, mexico, the moon..... it all has to do with the MANUFACTURING TECHNIQUES and the TOLERANCES set for design and quality control.

you could have a ford plant next to a honda plant, and it doesn't mean they are both gonna come out the same quality. the ford is domestic, the honda is import, whether it's made here or not.