The worse thing about cheating is getting caught
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R1:
there you have it. they ran 11 pounds under
BAR-Honda representatives appeared before the appeals body Wednesday to explain why Button's car ran 11 pounds under the minimum 1,322-pound weight at Imola.
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Originally Posted by R1Style
I read that but why did it run 11 pounds under? What was this so called concealed mechanism???
Nothing works better than a Chris except a Honda.
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Originally Posted by scizod
They ran a modified fuel tank. It held the same as everyone else but it also had a hidden 3 gallon resevoir inside that tank. It was very trick. By having that, you can have less fuel in the tank and have the reserve full resulting in a lighter car. They would be running the same amount of fuel as everyone else but with less fuel in the tank. That is basically why they are banned. They said with that done to the car they would shave about 14.5 seconds in a race. Does not seem like a lot but in an F1 race that is like a 1/4 of a lap.
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Documents showed that Button's car weight 594.6 kg after all of its fuel had been drained, which is below the 600 kg minimum specified by the technical regulations.
"The only way in which the vehicle could meet the requirement of the minimum weight of 600 kg was to have used fuel as ballast, which does not conform to the (regulations)", said the Court.
The Court also noted an additional 8.92 kg of fuel remained in the tank in a special compartment and a further 2.46 kg of fuel remained in the bottom of the tank after team officials had confirmed to race stewards that all the fuel had been drained out.
"The only way in which the vehicle could meet the requirement of the minimum weight of 600 kg was to have used fuel as ballast, which does not conform to the (regulations)", said the Court.
The Court also noted an additional 8.92 kg of fuel remained in the tank in a special compartment and a further 2.46 kg of fuel remained in the bottom of the tank after team officials had confirmed to race stewards that all the fuel had been drained out.
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Originally Posted by S2000man01
so it was a TEAM using honda engines? or was this done by honda themselves?
It really sucks cause it looked like they had finally gotten their stride back in testing and the car had gotten fast again, now it seems that they were just running light. Really made me lose respect for the people that run the team, i don't know if i can route for them anymore.
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Rep Power: 400 Actually, some technical information and discovery information was posted on s2ki.com about the situation. It appears that Honda did NOT cheat and that the FIA mechanics KNEW 4 races before this one that the "special" fuel tank existed. Not only knew it existed, but ALSO that ferarri has the same tanks. (however, ferarri changed out their fuel tanks the day after all of this erupted)
More info:
So in other words, the car is not even driveable without this 6kg of fuel. When they emptied the "extra" tank, it made the car not driveable. So in other words, honda's stance is the car's "dry" weight must still maintain enough fuel that the car is driveable, since all the other cars can drive off after being weighed. However, if that tank dips below 6kg of fuel, the car is no longer driveable, and should not have been weighed at that point. The tank is actually a very innovative fuel delivery system, not requiring any baffling as on other cars.
More info:
But anyway, the fuel tank was deemed not secret when the FIA Technical Delegate Jo Bauer testified that he knew about the fuel tank since Malaysia 2005 (that's three races ago) when B.A.R allowed him to inspect it as the FIA were inspecting all fuel tanks that weekend. The purpose of this tank is to provide fuel, not air, to be pumped at 50 bar into the engine. The collector requires approx 6kg of fuel to function.
The car was not underweight during the event. The car was not underweight until the FIA made the car undriveable. (by draining this tank, which CANNOT even function if there is no fuel in it) The FIA Court of Appeal didn't even focus on whether the car was underweight or not, but rather how the scrutineering took place and how one of the B.A.R team members answered a question. The question was, "Is that it?" and his answer was, "Yes". What was happening when this exchange took place? A lifted pump drain procedure of the car. All of the fuel that could be removed from the lifted pump procedure drained out until the pump was pumping air. The pump equipment was removed and the Technical Deligate asked a question and got an answer believed to be true based on what the team member thought he was asked.
The car was not underweight during the event. The car was not underweight until the FIA made the car undriveable. (by draining this tank, which CANNOT even function if there is no fuel in it) The FIA Court of Appeal didn't even focus on whether the car was underweight or not, but rather how the scrutineering took place and how one of the B.A.R team members answered a question. The question was, "Is that it?" and his answer was, "Yes". What was happening when this exchange took place? A lifted pump drain procedure of the car. All of the fuel that could be removed from the lifted pump procedure drained out until the pump was pumping air. The pump equipment was removed and the Technical Deligate asked a question and got an answer believed to be true based on what the team member thought he was asked.
Last edited by S2000man01; May 8, 2005 at 10:21 PM.
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Rep Power: 344 they were trying exploit a loop-hole in the regulations. BAR have been doin this for a while now, the illegal brake transfer system, moveable rear wing endplates, this is the first of their little tricks that the FIA didn't catch till after the race. The rules state the car must be empty of all fuel, car was not empty, they were wrong. It makes them and the sport look really bad.
They should just except the fact that they have a mid-pack car and deal with it. It really makes me not want to route for BAR anymore, but i must cause of their engines.
They should just except the fact that they have a mid-pack car and deal with it. It really makes me not want to route for BAR anymore, but i must cause of their engines.
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Originally Posted by acidbaby
11 pounds is quite a mistake...
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=352421
The car was never under-weight during the race. It was weighted and passed initial inspection, but the FIA took the step to empty the car and weight it again and found that once emptied it was out of spec by 11lb. BAR maintains that they did nothing wrong and they are considering taking the FIA to civil court over the matter.
The car was never under-weight during the race. It was weighted and passed initial inspection, but the FIA took the step to empty the car and weight it again and found that once emptied it was out of spec by 11lb. BAR maintains that they did nothing wrong and they are considering taking the FIA to civil court over the matter.
Last edited by mad_ox1; May 8, 2005 at 11:59 PM.
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Rep Power: 344 oh boy honda fan-boys on vtec.net, whats funny is the guy posted a quote from the regulations and says that BAR didn't break any of the rules when in fact they broke one he posted
All times during the event meaning when the car is sitting in the trailer with no fuel in it. The car was built under weight its plain and simple, no matter how much of a fan of Honda or BAR you are (which i have been sence they got Honda power) you can't deny they cheated.
Article 4.1 Minimum Weight: The weight of the car must not be less than 605 kg during the qualifying practice session and no less than 600 kg at all other times during the event.
Last edited by Hawk; May 9, 2005 at 12:16 AM.
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Originally Posted by Hawk
they were trying exploit a loop-hole in the regulations. BAR have been doin this for a while now, the illegal brake transfer system, moveable rear wing endplates, this is the first of their little tricks that the FIA didn't catch till after the race. The rules state the car must be empty of all fuel, car was not empty, they were wrong. It makes them and the sport look really bad.
They should just except the fact that they have a mid-pack car and deal with it. It really makes me not want to route for BAR anymore, but i must cause of their engines.
They should just except the fact that they have a mid-pack car and deal with it. It really makes me not want to route for BAR anymore, but i must cause of their engines.
So to sit here and shake a finger at Honda/BAR would be the pot calling the kettle black so to speak. Why must honda be held to the higher standard, when all the other teams push the rules and find loopholes where they can?
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Originally Posted by Hawk
oh boy honda fan-boys on vtec.net, whats funny is the guy posted a quote from the regulations and says that BAR didn't break any of the rules when in fact they broke one he posted
All times during the event meaning when the car is sitting in the trailer with no fuel in it. The car was built under weight its plain and simple, no matter how much of a fan of Honda or BAR you are (which i have been sence they got Honda power) you can't deny they cheated.
All times during the event meaning when the car is sitting in the trailer with no fuel in it. The car was built under weight its plain and simple, no matter how much of a fan of Honda or BAR you are (which i have been sence they got Honda power) you can't deny they cheated.
The FIA knows they were somewhat "incorrect" in their take on the matter and the punishment. Why do I say that? Because Honda is allowed to not only race again starting May 29th, but the FIA is allowing them to use the same car, without having added any weight modifications. Interesting don't you think?
And as you continue to bash BAR honda, you completely ignored the fact that ferarri had the EXACT same mechanism on their cars, and immediately changed out the fuel tanks the day after the initial blow-up of all this crap.
Last edited by S2000man01; May 9, 2005 at 12:44 AM.
While every site does have their fan-boys, I think you'll find that vtec is one of the most unbiased sites out there. Like S2000man01 said, they never were under spec during the event, and even during the post-race inspection. The FIA made a 2nd inspection of the car at a later time. The FIA is trying to do whatever it can to weaken the stance of the GPWC.
It becomes more and more obvious how much they favor Ferarri, in situations like this and in testing because they are the only team to sign on with the FIA beyond the current Concord Agreement. It looks like there will be a breakaway series and F1 will turn into a Ferarri spec series with possibly 1 or 2 other small teams.
You might be interested to see how the other manufacturers feel about the FIA's decision.
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/16757/
"The automakers were also not pleased with BAR-Honda’s two-race ban issued by the FIA International Court of Appeal following their alleged use of fuel as ballast in the San Marino GP. The manufacturers perceive the Court as lacking indepencence to argue such cases since it is connected to the FIA."
It becomes more and more obvious how much they favor Ferarri, in situations like this and in testing because they are the only team to sign on with the FIA beyond the current Concord Agreement. It looks like there will be a breakaway series and F1 will turn into a Ferarri spec series with possibly 1 or 2 other small teams.
You might be interested to see how the other manufacturers feel about the FIA's decision.
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/16757/
"The automakers were also not pleased with BAR-Honda’s two-race ban issued by the FIA International Court of Appeal following their alleged use of fuel as ballast in the San Marino GP. The manufacturers perceive the Court as lacking indepencence to argue such cases since it is connected to the FIA."
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Rep Power: 344 what you guys seem to be missing is the fact that the car must be weighed dry after the end of the event and make the minimum weight requirement. BAR LEFT FUEL in the FIA aproved second tank, which was suposed to be emptied prior to weighing. Its not that the device that they were using was illegal because it isn't, its the fact that they left fuel in the car when it was supposed to be dry weight. Ferrari might use the same system in the tank, but they empty the tank before weighing, like they are supposed to.
http://www.formula1.com/insight/tech...005/2/111.html
P.S. S2000man, the event means the entire race weekend, not just the race.
http://www.formula1.com/insight/tech...005/2/111.html
P.S. S2000man, the event means the entire race weekend, not just the race.
Last edited by Hawk; May 9, 2005 at 01:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hawk
what you guys seem to be missing is the fact that the car must be weighed dry after the end of the event and make the minimum weight requirement. BAR LEFT FUEL in the FIA aproved second tank, which was suposed to be emptied prior to weighing. Its not that the device that they were using was illegal because it isn't, its the fact that they left fuel in the car when it was supposed to be dry weight. Ferrari might use the same system in the tank, but they empty the tank before weighing, like they are supposed to.
http://www.formula1.com/insight/tech...005/2/111.html
P.S. S2000man, the event means the entire race weekend, not just the race.
http://www.formula1.com/insight/tech...005/2/111.html
P.S. S2000man, the event means the entire race weekend, not just the race.
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Originally Posted by xtreme26
but then why did ferrari change their fuel tanks the day this happened?
Point is that BAR left fuel in a car that is supposed to be empty and that is cheating, plain and simple. No matter if someone else does it or not, they didn't get caught, BAR did. It's sad to see that the team would even think of doin it let alone do it.
If you can't see the fact that a team running a underweight car is wrong (no matter what team it is) then i don't know what to tell you.
Last edited by Hawk; May 9, 2005 at 04:00 PM.
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Rep Power: 400 actually, FIA revised what rule it is that BAR broke. did you notice that? once they saw they were basically incorrect on their initial stance, they changed the charge from being underweight, to using fuel as a ballast. Which BAR is going to continue to argue since there is no way to control the fuel moving from one tank to another. So FIA keeps backpeddling. So no, I don't think they were cheating.
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Originally Posted by S2000man01
actually, FIA revised what rule it is that BAR broke. did you notice that? once they saw they were basically incorrect on their initial stance, they changed the charge from being underweight, to using fuel as a ballast.
And they were aparently using the the tank as a ballast, cause it was on the right side of the tank, and most tracks are clockwise.
Now they are being warned by the FIA not to apeal the descision, they should just back off and wait for the Nurburgring race where hopefully they'll get a win, or at least a podium, legaly.
